just dodge. *shrugs*

Yeah, just dodge some unbalanced crap coming at you fast as lightning...no sound effect, nothing. You just have to get grabbed five times before you even recognize it’s a grab attack. Lame.

I hate grab attacks, because you almost never see them coming 1st time...
hard to dodge if you don't know you supposed too...

Originally posted by Fenix:

I hate grab attacks, because you almost never see them coming 1st time...
hard to dodge if you don't know you supposed too...

This, I agree. Easy enough to dodge after the first few times, but when I'm in the mindset of "I'll just parry/block everything", one new grab sends me into a rage. Even worse when you see a boss randomly use an attack on the 10th try that you've never seen before.

At least the grabs in this game seem to do relatively less damage than they do in FromSoft's games, where they're really often instant deaths.

I agree, nothing more annoying than having a boss a couple hits away from defeat and they do a fast AF grab attack that deals 80% damage to your HP which is almost always instant death..

All of this game's grabs are extremely telegraphed whole seconds in advance, very predictably patterned, or both; some grabs are even blockable (Green Monster, Laxasia, not confidently sure on Two-Faced Overseer). Even so, that only helps you dodge them in post, since on your first time through you'll have no way of knowing any better. A universal audiovisual cue like Nioh 2's black and white smoke would do a lot of justice for new players. The final boss of Overture has something like this going on with both his grabs and his heal punishes in the form of distinct red+orange eye flashes and his fight feels much fairer to learn for it.

Originally posted by Plumber:

All of this game's grabs are extremely telegraphed whole seconds in advance, very predictably patterned, or both; some grabs are even blockable (Green Monster, Laxasia, not confidently sure on Two-Faced Overseer). Even so, that only helps you dodge them in post, since on your first time through you'll have no way of knowing any better. A universal audiovisual cue like Nioh 2's black and white smoke would do a lot of justice for new players. The final boss of Overture has something like this going on with both his grabs and his heal punishes in the form of distinct red+orange eye flashes and his fight feels much fairer to learn for it.

also most of them dont do that much damage unless you are doing the rematches.

base game and ng+ they took like 25%-50% of my max health bar. so its not like its SUPER unforgiving or anything.

Originally posted by Plumber:

All of this game's grabs are extremely telegraphed whole seconds in advance, very predictably patterned, or both; some grabs are even blockable (Green Monster, Laxasia, not confidently sure on Two-Faced Overseer). Even so, that only helps you dodge them in post, since on your first time through you'll have no way of knowing any better. A universal audiovisual cue like Nioh 2's black and white smoke would do a lot of justice for new players. The final boss of Overture has something like this going on with both his grabs and his heal punishes in the form of distinct red+orange eye flashes and his fight feels much fairer to learn for it.

I'd rather they use something more consistent than the eye flashes, honestly. Every boss that uses an eye flash before an attack has a slightly different parry timing, so it never really starts feeling fair, you still get hit by the attack until you memorize it. Or do what Sekiro did and make timing so loose that as long as you're mashing the right button, you parry it.

(Also, I kind of wish people would stop using the phrase "learn" for Souls fights. I'm not really sure why we're so okay with the mechanics between each fight being so inconsistent that your skills don't carry over between them, making you memorize each encounter.)

Originally posted by Netsa:

(Also, I kind of wish people would stop using the phrase "learn" for Souls fights. I'm not really sure why we're so okay with the mechanics between each fight being so inconsistent that your skills don't carry over between them, making you memorize each encounter.)

In all fairness, that's what it ultimately boils down to for Souls fights.
You die and die again until you recognize the timings and variations in a boss's moveset.

For example, it took me a good while to finally differentiate the follow up attacks Phase 1 Arlecchino does when he initiates his twirling sword combo. If he hits with his hook first after the sword twirl hit, he will follow up with a cross slash, If not, he will do the quick sword and hook hit.

Anyway, the glowing red eyes thing is specific only to Arlecchino. The other grab attacks mentioned do not have as much of a telegraph, maybe besides Laxasia. Though the inconsistency does bother me a bit, you can perfect guard Laxasia's and Green Monster's grabs but I don't think you can deflect Victor's and Arlecchino's grabs (please correct me if it isn't true).

It would be a great quality of life change to include another indicator for grab attacks. Nightreign does this by making a certain sound followed by glowing purple lightning to tell that player to watch out for this because it's a grab attack.

this is a wall of text so tl;dr for anyone who doesn't want to spend minutes reading an unnecessarily thorough post is "yeah i think grabs and some poorly telegraphed attacks could use some vfx cues but it's also possible to use them wrong; also skill is absolutely a factor from fight to fight"

Making sure attacks are intuitively timed is a different problem. Adding an arbitrary flash to cue the timing specifically is essentially a hack for that, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but tends to take away from natural cues so I personally prefer games to do it as sparingly as possible. Some moves like Fuoco's instant overhead slams or other enemies' physics-defying stop-motion attacks absolutely could use it, especially fury attack variations, but it's not something that bothers me that much since the game at large strongly encourages you to sprint or dodge things you don't understand or have no business blocking. When you later fight those enemies again and stagger the hell out of them because you're landing almost all of the parries, that's the risk-reward at work in your favor.

It'd be for the best if shortcuts like flashes were used only for the most unconventional attacks so you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a grab indicator is a grab indicator. Communicating to the player that a move is special and breaks the rules somehow and exclusively doing it for those moves makes it much more powerful signposting. Imagine if Fury Attacks didn't have their neon red shader and were just a thing that you had to know about; that'd be lame, right?
I'll bring up the DLC's finale again since he has multiple layers of it going on: these distinct moves are grabs; these have unblockable followup shockwaves; these two types of move inflict a status... All of them have strikingly different visuals, and the most deadly attacks can still be blocked or dodged if their leadup catches you. This allows him to be overwhelmingly oppressive with his attack patterns and have heaps of nasty extensions without ever being 'unfair' about it or failing to communicate what he's about to dumpster you with.

I'm going to keep using 'learn' every fight and game in existence because it's a universal truth that you're always going to be blind the first time you encounter something unless you're seated for a short instructional video telling you exactly what you should be doing. Metroid Dread did this in an interesting way where a certain intro scene was actually a tutorial for the final boss hours later; very satisfying way to frame a cutscene.

Where "skill" is involved, everyone will always have to memorize an enemy's attack patterns and any conditions attached to them; whether the game is obnoxious about it or polite is what the original topic is about in essence. "Skill" is much more than just memorizing attack timings in my opinion, especially in a game where dodging some moves is better than parrying them even when both options stop all damage.
Your learning strategy, execution consistency, whether you can keep your nerves; how effectively you figure out the rules and bounds of a new challenge; your attitude toward things you've yet to master and how wisely you play based on what you know you can do in the present. All of these are foundational and apply even to things with stupid rules that are deliberately unfair, arguably life at large, and the games that honor them are always enjoyable for me to figure out. It's why Lies of P is leaps and bounds better than anything I'd experienced out of "souls games" where FromSoft is concerned.

Big fan of Nioh 2 as well for a lot of similar reasons. It has some encounters that are genuine artificial difficulty to the tune of untelegraphed instant attacks, bosses that can decide "no u" and break out of a combo to counterattack you with super armor, and a drop system that hates you, but there's almost always an answer the player has to every single thing that should feel cheap, and with the right setup and good execution you can turn what would be complete garbage in any other game into a somewhat jank but ultimately satisfying fight anyway, leaving only a small selection of truly 'bad' fights left over. The drop system will hate you regardless, though.

Originally posted by AZRA3L The Eternal:

Anyway, the glowing red eyes thing is specific only to Arlecchino. The other grab attacks mentioned do not have as much of a telegraph, maybe besides Laxasia. Though the inconsistency does bother me a bit, you can perfect guard Laxasia's and Green Monster's grabs but I don't think you can deflect Victor's and Arlecchino's grabs (please correct me if it isn't true).

The eye flash thing was done for King of Puppets p2's neck swipe, which isn't necessarily a grab but it is an unblockable with a followup if it lands or you dodge into him (which is also better to dodge than block because it has blockstun for years).
Laxasia either does a showy pose when leading into the grab thrust or leads into it from a different move, but even in the latter case you have more than enough time to dodge unless you're doing a slow fable art or something.
Victor goes "EOEOEOOOORRUGUOOLLEE" unmistakably.
Green Monster grabs by position, making it predictable and even something you can bait out for free damage / time to recover stamina. Not sure if the premetamorphic ver in the DLC follows suit; haven't tried but likely unblockable. Not possible to refight it quickly without save management, so I have low experience here...
Unsure in Overseer's case because I usually dodge it and think I blocked it once, but it would be best to verify.
Markiona has gone unmentioned but her grab is also accompanied by a unique orb spiral pattern, and it looks unblockable so it probably is but I honestly haven't tried.
It was obvious to me that I couldn't deflect Victor's or Arlecchino's grabs (and many elite / miniboss style enemies otherwise) because they clearly physically grab you.

While pretty ambiguous in the grand scheme, any grab involving a weapon is something you can at least attempt to buffer a deflect attempt for just in case.

Okay I found out the hard way that Markiona's grab cannot be deflected.

Anyway, thanks Plumber on clarifying why Laxasia's and Green Monster's grabs can be deflected while Victor's and Arlecchino's grabs cannot.

Also, you can deflect the Two-Faced Overseer's grab attack because it is a piercing thrust with his weapon. Just try not to be too greedy after you deflect because he can try to do it again if you're still close to him.

that's cool to have confirmed; gives me an idea for a weapon to try out against him next time I revisit the game

Originally posted by AZRA3L The Eternal:

In all fairness, that's what it ultimately boils down to for Souls fights.
You die and die again until you recognize the timings and variations in a boss's moveset.

For example, it took me a good while to finally differentiate the follow up attacks Phase 1 Arlecchino does when he initiates his twirling sword combo. If he hits with his hook first after the sword twirl hit, he will follow up with a cross slash, If not, he will do the quick sword and hook hit.

Anyway, the glowing red eyes thing is specific only to Arlecchino. The other grab attacks mentioned do not have as much of a telegraph, maybe besides Laxasia. Though the inconsistency does bother me a bit, you can perfect guard Laxasia's and Green Monster's grabs but I don't think you can deflect Victor's and Arlecchino's grabs (please correct me if it isn't true).

It would be a great quality of life change to include another indicator for grab attacks. Nightreign does this by making a certain sound followed by glowing purple lightning to tell that player to watch out for this because it's a grab attack.

I know, I'm just becoming a curmudgeon and don't like it. I started questioning yesterday whether Souls games actually require any skill to play, or if it's just persistence and memorization, and my wins started to feel more empty. Lower difficulty settings, items, and challenge runs just raise or lower how much of the fight you actually need to memorize. Mastery of the mechanics of the game matters, yeah, but when they start throwing bosses that specifically circumvent mastery of the game's mechanics, then mastering them doesn't mean anything, either.

Like, if I fought Arlecchino as the third boss of the main game rather than the end of the DLC, besides narrative differences, would the fight actually feel any different?

Anyway... no, red eyes isn't specific to Arlecchino. Lumacchio (smoke bomb), Romeo (hook), and Nameless (mad dash) all do red-eye attacks.

And it's not just grabs, it's also unmarked unblockables. Every time he does a blood wave, it bypasses guards. Anguished Guardian's 2nd phase does this a lot, too, with the laser spam. What made it more annoying is that unblockable attacks like these barely ever showed up in the base game. They're only thrown around a lot in the DLC.

Originally posted by Plumber:

*clipped for brevity*

Poking at a few things.
- The game at large does not encourage you to dodge or sprint, it does the exact opposite. Normal enemies encourage dodging or sprinting away because you can actually get away from them. For most boss attacks, especially later in the DLC, you can't.

- Arlecchino is pretty unfair, and it's because most of those mechanics are specific to his fight and his fight alone. You don't know that stuff inflicts Break until it does. You don't know the wave is unblockable until you try to block it. You don't know you can't block the grab until he grabs you. A telegraph doesn't mean anything if you've never (or extremely rarely) seen anything similar to it before.

- I pointed out the word "learn" for Souls games specifically, because it's NOT universal. Platformers always show you a challenge before it shows up so you can at least reflex it. Having to "learn" each level the same way Souls games do it would be like if they zoomed in the camera really close to the character so you literally couldn't see the next platform. You will be able to jump on it after enough tries once you know it's there, but you're supposed to know it's there before you're asked to jump.

Shooters also always telegraph. Racing games always telegraph. Rhythm games always telegraph. RPGs (usually) telegraph. Even fighting games technically give you a telegraph because you usually have access to a fighter's moveset before you fight them, you don't have to fight them blind. You don't learn individual tracks or fights in any of these games. You may learn secrets, but it's very rare that you have to learn an individual level just to win and continue playing the game.

- You don't have to memorize attack patterns for enemies that are using patterns you've already seen before, or if they're using basic patterns, or if they're properly telegraphed. This is why you don't memorize non-boss enemies for the most part, they don't need to be memorized. You can just use your knowledge of the game to defeat them.

- We really shouldn't be praising untelegraphed attacks, ambiguous telegraphs, or artificial difficulty in general.

The game still requires skill, you can't just button mash your way through the base game.

Objectively, any souls game still requires a degree of skill to play: timing dodges and attacks, memorization, knowledge of game mechanics, reading comprehension, etc.

I think over-exaggerating difficulty in souls games detracts from one of its core components, the game is challenging but fair. There is an above average steep learning curve in these types of games for sure, but it's not like Ghouls N Goblins levels of bullsh*t.

Anyway, I agree that the game should have placed more emphasis on learning to dodge enemies and not focus on deflecting everything. After all, I still remember when you had to unlock the ability to dodge off from the ground after being knocked down.

Still I think Arlecchino is still pretty fair in introducing you to his mechanics.

*Phase 1, he tests your reaction and deflection skills by being aggressive with attacks. He will punish you harshly for healing next to him even after a combo. The true opportunities to heal are when you stun, stagger him, or he backs off far to grind his weapons.

*Phase 2, The end of his blood flurry combo has him do a wide slash with his crimson light saber that covers the area in a dark aura which then explodes from the ground. This means any time he whips out his light saber blades, expect the explosive smoke follow-up.

*He only inflicts Break anytime he slashes with his buzzsaws or his lightning claws. So basically, any attacks involving some red lightning effect will put Break on you if you don't deflect or get out of the way.

I know you didn't ask for this, but as someone who had to do his Boss Rematch so many times. He's actually pretty fair and reminds me of Malenia but more consistent due to how he only does his ultimate move twice. I think he's a great final boss, he could have been more perfect if it weren't for the fact that he inflicts Break, one of the more annoying statuses to have.

Sorry for getting off-topic.

I mean this in a polite way, not an insult - it sounds like you were burnt out going into the DLC and you were even more burnt out coming out of it, and you should take a break from these kinds of games because you're clearly not enjoying them.
The issues you point out that we may not agree are issues are still clearly personal to you because the way you're supposed to engage with these kinds of games runs counter to how you WANT to play them and you're unwilling to compromise by practicing, frustrated being surprised by anything even once and not showing much interest in problem-agnostic solutions like dodging or just getting out of the way. It's like trying to beat staff ghosts in racing games without playing the track first; of course there's going to be a curve. Why does it not count here if not the framing? But burnout won't let you see that, and you shouldn't force it.

It's not like you're thrown to the wolves in the first place. In Arlecchino's case, you actually don't have to 'fight him blind'; you're given Lea as a strongly encouraged story partner and you can focus almost exclusively on just cowering in fear and healing through his shockwaves and grabs that can't actually OHKO if you keep yourself topped off. I didn't bring it up before since it seemed uncharitable at first, but you have to consciously opt into fighting him alone as part of the DLC regardless of your difficulty selection. It's likely that Battle Memories are a thing specifically because of this fight what with how differently it plays out.

None of what Arlecchino does mechanically is strictly unique to his fight outside of maybe the heal punishes in phase 1 and the blood skulls that give a whopping 0% guard regain if you block them poorly (and can just dodge them!), but those are supposed to elicit a big "oh no!" reaction so I don't mind. By the time you've fought Arlecchino, you've already seen grabs, unblockable area attacks, distinctly colored or styled attacks that inflict an enemy's status effect, and bosses with similar (though not as extreme) strings. Break is more of a tax than an actual source of pressure since he leaves you alone long enough to heal twice if you stay away from him between combos.

Lies of P and Nioh 2 were refreshing to me because I actually felt this same kind of negative way toward FromSoft's games, but then had no qualms with figuring things out here because the player character is so much stronger and you have so many ways to tackle each fight; like solving a puzzle that you can run back later and smash wide open, as opposed to mostly being a flat experience the whole way through with little reward for mastery. I really don't like the direction of FromSoft's games from DS3 onward, whereas here you have more than one or two answers to incoming attacks, don't have to worry (very much) about whether the AI is state reading you, you can actually respond to their annoying conditional extensions that happen only when you stay close in more than one way which is usually never triggering it - there's far more control. More onus to use it effectively as well, but I'm all for it.

I'm not championing bad game design, but outlining that sometimes you just need to change your rules of engagement with it in order to enjoy what you DO like; that was the point of bringing up Nioh 2, where a few bad fights aren't enough to deter me from engaging with the rest of it, and I felt no compunctions pulling out all the stops when fighting enemies that were designed explicitly for me to do so.

Yes, dodging and simply sprinting is very strong against the right attacks, even in a game with perfect guarding. There are several enemies in the base game and DLC that give you meaningful openings to attack or recover if you get behind them or otherwise create distance. Many Fury Attacks throughout the game have odd timings that you just don't have to deal with if you get out of the way. Anguished Guardian is a good example of where sprinting is powerful. He won't be able to force you to dodge multiple beams in a row if you get close to him fast enough; some beams just miss entirely if you're sprinting at light equip load, too. Fully upgraded Cataclysm dumpsters Arlecchino's shockwave attacks btw, doesn't even cost stamina to dodge while charging it...

Before you get NG+/++ P-Organ upgrades, blocking some strings instead of avoiding them can be extremely costly stamina-wise even if you perfectly parry them. In some cases, extreme blockstun precludes you from countering some enemies where you'd have a charged heavy lined up if you'd just dodged or positioned around them, like King of Puppets p2's neck swipe followup. That was when I realized the dodging I was doing for some attacks intuitively wasn't just being afraid to guard, but a core facet of the gameplay, and I only enjoyed it more knowing it.
Heavy weapons in general love dodging big attacks or staying just shy of their range to spend as much time as possible lining up charged R2s. My first playthrough got a lot of mileage from Big Pipe Wrench and Frozen Feast, and when replaying recently I got a lot of fun out of DLC weapons' stronger mobility across the board, especially Pale Knight and Monad's Rose Sword.