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In Torchlight 2, 1 class = 1 character. You can't imagine the Berzerker with big muscles playing Mage. Nor can you imagine the Embermage being feral and use claws. It does not really fit together.
I think the RPG aspect is not the crucial point of Torchlight 2. If you're looking for a proper RPG and highly customizable experience, there are other games for that (such as The Elder Scrolls series for example).
How do mods like Synergies/Far East prove your point ? You cited them but you didn't give any explanation
Each pair of these twins you suggest could probably be rolled into one class with different skill trees, but that's just my vague impression so far.
So you could play an Embermage with Berzerker skills for instance
Exactly my point... I will go a step further and state that when modders write Character Stories into their mods they find ways to attach it to these very same stats, skills, and even their clothing which can have info of a person or society written onto it.
Class = Character.
Yes, the original classes are intended that way...
Although some mods have used Skill Trees to define a character...
which leads me to the interesting question of what happens when the
Skill = Character.
It's as if Berserkers [with big muscles] were certainly playing Ice Mage with the Tundra Tree.
But you do have a point... it comes down to how we all define the source of that character.
Curiously even the original classes use gear, weapon and clothing to define character as well.
Mondon's Set is a lore set of Mondon's legacy with unique stats... yet this same system can be used for:
Clothing = Character.
True. TL2 gameplay does not rely on RPG [Story Game] elements...
In spite of this... I find that modders use RPG aspects to actually decide what skills they place into their classes which actually means that skills "can" be intimately linked back to an RPG mindset... in fact it has been used by many modders to make their classes unique from each other.
In TL2 a Character [or Person] is not defined by speech but in writing.
Many armor sets have lore written into them and some modded classes even have lore written onto their skill descriptions.
They prove that Classes which define Characters restrict those characters [read war techniques] to the Class itself...
Far East proves this even more than Synergies by the fact that a Kensei can be similar to a Ronin but cannot be a Mongolian Archer.
"Skill = Character" has everything to do with flexibility within a Class to literally "morph" into a totally different character [War technique]...
"Clothing = Character" means the Class can "change" character [war style] by simply wearing armor sets that "allow" the player to "play" the role and gear stats associated with that Person.
"Class = Character" restricts the class to be only of itself. This is good when creating large class packs like the Far East as they lead to intensely focused skill personality.
True... Original Classes were defined to be mainly of 1 Character.
All the Skills inside the Berserker are intended for itself...
= = =
Modded Territory: Is where this definition can be placed elsewhere besides the Class itself.
I thank you for pointing out how vague that description was... I added some [detail] to hopefully describe it better.
My concept of a Twin [2] Class Pack is actually best viewed as one class [you were very perceptive and in fact that is exactly what I hope others will see.]
You have a point that it could have been rolled into one class... the reason it couldn't be one is because originally it started as 10 classes [the 11th Person was a combined super class which eventually "ate" the other 10 to form the "Twins"].
The 10 Classes were basically being developed in my mind under the concept of:
However this proved to be too time consuming for me [remember the clothing set pieces I mentioned? It was 640 pieces.] Because the amount of skills required was 330 [It's a ton of work] and most of those skills were virtually the same within the tree itself...
Which meant I was going to be making much of the same thing:
7_arrowsx15_ranks=105 per "unique" skill since only the "element" or "effect" factor changed.
= = =
@Everyone: Fun Fact...
a Skill of 15 ranks is actually 15 skills... [yes it's daunting when you add multipiers (in work not game stats) per individual class being built.]
Typical Individual Class = 30x15=450 actual skills to "program" in Guts.
10 Classes = 4500.
Twin [2] Class = Only 900 actual skills. Assuming 30 per Class.
= = =
That is when I realized that I could boil [simplify] down the 10 Characters and greatly represent their backstory and unique war techniques into 2 Skills each Character [What a relief when I saw that possibility!]
Hence I began to question why a Class must equal a Character when I can actually make a flexible 10 Characters [with gear sets!] inside 2 "super" variations of the same [skillfully diversified] Class.
Curiously, when I look at a Class as the "Game" and the Skill as the "Character", I find that the only need to switch classes [read: can't take your XP progress with you.] is when the desire arises to play as the other "Twin", [which also allows players a very important variation style option at the start of the game].
= = =
It's true that I could have placed all the elements into one class... but then I realized that I could divide the "Twins" into distinct styles without having to change the bedrock of the skills themselves... just the dual elements... charge bonus as more critical or more speed... color changes to the skills and clothing itself... different status effects... and I realized it was a good idea... I've been working towards it ever since.
= = =
Twin A:
Charge gives Speed Bonus.
Fire DPS Tree, Teleport-Summon %Chance Tree [Physical DPS], Poison DPS Tree.
Twin B:
Charge gives Critical Bonus.
Ice DPS Tree, Teleport-Summon %Chance Tree [Physical DPS], Electric DPS Tree.
All the trees also carry various flat elemental damage so the DPS is actually just one layer of elemental damage... every tree is actually dealing 2 or 3 elements worth of damage along with the DPS and Flat Damage [which obviously changes depending on the Tree].
= = =
I hope this explains why I decided not to merge the 10 into 1 but instead into 2 Twins.
Current Reason 1: I wanted a Class Mod that offers more than 1 Class but not too many.
Current Reason 2: I wanted Classes that felt distinct from each other despite being "Twins" since the clone feeling is offset by TL2's own 4 [5] element system [2 for 2] [5th is shared].
Current Reason 3: I wanted 3 Trees and 36 skills [it used to be 30] and it will give me enough space to make them both extremely versitile... literally all in one style.
Current Reason 4: For anyone playing with the original skill point system [1 for 1] it means that not too many skills can be maxed out despite the versitility. [and with 2 for 1 it means using most of the class in one file].
= = =
The Clothing System in Numbers:
11 sets x2 Classes [different opposite stat boosts]
6 clothing... 2 weapons [a one handed and a two handed.] per Set.
Twin A, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11.
Twin B, 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1.
^^^Notice I reversed the order in which they appear in the game between the Twins?
It allows the earlier sets to have an "alternate element high level version" that can be used in the end game... since every set has a different weapon and stat bonuses associated with it.
= = =
Of course it's all still in theory... but that hasn't stopped me from refining it... all this planning is actually saving me a ton of work in the long run.
= = =
I hope these numbers help other future mod class pack makers save time or inspire them to think outside the box.
= = =
Another example of how this would work, is my Archery tree in the Hunter class that you described. The Archery tree represents one character, and that character is the Archer. The Archer is supposed to use exclusively ranged weapons, whereas the second and third trees can be melee or ranged, depending on your playstyle.
The great thing about Torchlight is that you can mix the three trees of any given class and make your own unique "character." For example, if the fantasy that you want to create for your character is that of a tanky, melee-orientated summoner type character, it is possible to do. The Witchdoctor from my mod can do this, if you go down through his first tree, picking up skills along the way, you can use melee skills, while also going down his summoner tree, effectively becoming the melee-orientated summoner "character."
When I decide what classes to play in a game (vanilla and mods), the first thing I look for is what type of play-style ie is it Melee Class, Ranged Class or Magic Class? These can all be split and combined into a million ways, but those three categories generally make up every class in every game.
TL2 is no different. Behind the game engine, there are 3 types of categories for items/damage
1. Martial (Melee)
2. Ranged
3. Magic
All damage is routed through one of these damage types no matter the type of character class, weapon, skills or spells they use.
For me a class if more the CULTURE of that person and how they fit in that culture hierarchy. A class must be at least one of the three above categories, so really there are only 3 main classes in TL2. Of course a class could technically be all three with three very different skill trees that specialize in each one separately :)
The other aspect is that people that are masters of their trade usually take on apprentices that are willing to devote themselves to the master. This, I think, was especially true of ages past. Cross training abilities is only more common in the modern world which does not apply to TL2.
Therefore, I personally, take the approach that each person studies under one master (in other words, is one class) and learns certain skills. Within that discipline, there are permutations (better at some skills than others). This could relate to a pianist learning classical vs. jazz but they wouldn't get better at playing a trumpet from a piano teacher.
The appearance plays into what makes sense. A short, skinny, nerdy person is not likely to become a linebacker for a football team. So the same could probably be said of a barbarian looking like a barbarian.
With TL2 modding you can of course do what you want. If a user doesn't like your approach, they don't have to install/use your mod.
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=275166654&searchtext=darkthan
I've always loved the Blackguard for it's diversity... I also liked how you point out that the Trees "feel" like Characters in themselves and I'm grateful you brought this example up.
Funny enough this one of my other favorite classes again for it's multiplicity... and again the Trees define the Character while the Class holds the entire package.
I think it's worth adding that your mod has many good examples of a Class Pack that can contain Classes with Trees that feel like Characters that are vastly different from each other and thrive.
And about those 3 Trees...
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=175480221&searchtext=blade
Just to remind anyone else who may not be aware that a class can be modded to have more than 3 trees since this mod class has 4.
Because by level 59 it is possible to invest at least one skill point into every [Berserker] skill in the original Torchlight 2.
^^^@potterman28wxcv: Thank you for [correcting] me lol the original statement was misleading XD.
I myself consider this tactic when planning my own Twin Class Skill DPS% per skill point invested...
It's a viable option and one that would be good to keep open among many mod classes as well.
It's interesting to say the least :)
Ah you meant every Berzerker skill, not every skill of the game ;p It was slightly misleading
Ha ha ha! So true... I got fed up with the lack of deep topics and started one 'cause I got tired of waiting...
And I can't stop thinking about 3 years worth of my time playing these classes now that I actually am "growing" Twins myself XD.
^^^@potterman28wxcv: Thank you for [correcting] me, lol the original statement was misleading XD.