Originally posted by Espy:

Title says it all. I've tried making a dodge build using suppressed SMGs to get extra damage out of Body Expertise and I do okay damage, but I feel like the dodge isn't proccing at all. It feels like the second I get targeted by an enemy, I lose half my health in an instant and I have to go hide until my armor regens.
The thing is, I have 60% dodge (50% when I'm not sprinting) but it feels like I'm just being carried by virtue of having lower threat than my nearby allies. The second I'm on my own I have to hide behind a desk or I go down. Not to mention it's really hard to control myself when I have to be constantly sprinting even with omni-directionality with Parkour Aced.

Perk deck is Copycat (Dutch Courage), and the Artful Dodger skill tree.

I was suggested to use Sicario or Hacker deck but they are still dodge decks (and Sicario entirely removes my ability to see lol) and I'm not sure how they decks are meant to play any differently than my Copycat dodge.

The thing with dodge is it's very RNG based. You either get shot or you don't. Rogue gives the most dodge and is constant. Hacker also has a lot of dodge but can stun cops and regen health. If you take rogue though you can use a zapper grenade launcher for mass stunning.
Copycat works best in a group with full dodge mode as you get targeted less if using Dutch courage.

BTW. I need to add that you really want to get that cover play up to snuff before going dodge. As Alto pointed out, it is RNG-based. Your only option to guarantee survival is to "cheat the dices" by avoiding getting shot at all as much as possible. You can only do that via a combination of good cover-play and low threat on your weapons.

The low threat part is less important but it does help.

How do I improve my cover play? I'm guessing trial-by-fire wearing lighter armor and trying to avoid breaking my armor as much as possible?

Originally posted by Espy:

How do I improve my cover play? I'm guessing trial-by-fire wearing lighter armor and trying to avoid breaking my armor as much as possible?

Not much secret to it but to keep trying. Dodge is easier to "cheese" with but its the hardest to actually master and consistently be good with.

But, just sticking to cover and using silencers should help a ton early on. Just keep at it until you nail it.

In effect, the idea is that you cannot control RNG. But, you can control your exposure to it. And a good dodge player will get that by good cover-play, fast TTK and whatever else can help him get shot at less often.

Originally posted by Espy:

How do I improve my cover play? I'm guessing trial-by-fire wearing lighter armor and trying to avoid breaking my armor as much as possible?

dodge decks usually use the suit for maximum dodge. There are a few exceptions however, such as crook only works with ballistic vests. Sicario is also best played in a light vest due to the fact you can regen all your armour on a dodge.

There's also some other stuff with sicario like you gain dodge chance each time you are shot so a light vest for a bit of protection comes in very handy indeed.

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

Originally posted by Espy:

How do I improve my cover play? I'm guessing trial-by-fire wearing lighter armor and trying to avoid breaking my armor as much as possible?

dodge decks usually use the suit for maximum dodge. There are a few exceptions however, such as crook only works with ballistic vests. Sicario is also best played in a light vest due to the fact you can regen all your armour on a dodge.

LBV is nice if you barely ever use the smoke, though suit Sicario is still the best because of it's increased survivability in the smoke.

i would suggest just not going with dodge and instead go suit + good health deck( grinder, hacker, muscle)

Muscle works great in is very consistent, but falls off the most on DS out of thsese 3

grinder is good if you tend to play very aggresively

hacker is probably the stroinges out of these 3, but from my experince it can be very inconsistent

Originally posted by The man, the myth, the leg:

i would suggest just not going with dodge and instead go suit + good health deck( grinder, hacker, muscle)

Muscle works great in is very consistent, but falls off the most on DS out of thsese 3

grinder is good if you tend to play very aggresively

hacker is probably the stroinges out of these 3, but from my experince it can be very inconsistent

I'll add in the copycat/anarchist with full dodge cards
feels like a better sicario since you now armorgate more reliably with suit

Originally posted by Espy:

I've tried making a dodge build using suppressed SMGs to get extra damage out of Body Expertise and I do okay damage

Hey nice! could ya give us your build via this web site? https://pd2builder.netlify.app/ If you don't trust this one you can yoink a link from some other discussion in the armoury section on these forums, we use this link very often for builds and if you give us your build we can improve upon it.

Originally posted by Espy:

but I feel like the dodge isn't proccing at all. It feels like the second I get targeted by an enemy, I lose half my health in an instant and I have to go hide until my armor regens.

First of all, don't take risks depending on your dodge. Clear the area out before doing objectives via kills or concussion grenades.
Second of all, use Dodge Count. It tracks your amount of dodges and It's usually slightly above the main menu stat due to Duck & Cover aced.
You are dodging shots but yeeting yourself into enemies tends to overwhelm the dodge. Hit heads to armour gate via Bullseye basic to keep yourself alive much longer.

Originally posted by Espy:

it feels like I'm just being carried by virtue of having lower threat than my nearby allies. The second I'm on my own I have to hide behind a desk or I go down.

Threat in practice is a placebo effect that barely has any effect in the game unless you are a certain burglar gamer on DS that has fun using bows or Biker without Hostage Taker.
Use a joker to replace the teammates, enemies tend to stick to their targets for 4s in my experience, if you are getting shot either kill the enemy or break line of sight for 4s.

Originally posted by Espy:

Parkour Aced.

You're spending points on removing your reload cancel, I advise against this if you want practicality as you can easily get caught with your pants down & need those 5 bullets in your gun. Sure melee works but that's not instant.

Originally posted by Espy:

Perk deck is Copycat (Dutch Courage), and the Artful Dodger skill tree.

I was suggested to use Sicario or Hacker deck but they are still dodge decks (and Sicario entirely removes my ability to see lol) and I'm not sure how they decks are meant to play any differently than my Copycat dodge.

• Sicario is the most balanced deck imo, but weaker than Rogue/Hacker/Copycat. It's a guilt free way to use dodge for me.
  
• Hacker is easily the strongest dodge deck in this game with a max of 80% dodge while sprinting with a bot boost. Press 3, kill spawn group, win. Press 3, do objective, do your happy dance.
  
• Copycat dodge is stronger than Rogue imo due to hp regen on headshot, shoot your joker's head for Hostage Taker levels of hp regen. imo Anarchist's card is best with Copycat's dodge as it takes less effort due to immunity to armour suppression, allowing you to be more aggressive. Great for objective pushing as well due to armour gating.

How to play dodge? pretend you're playing Yakuza with suit if you have 50% or lower, if you have higher than idk I just kill anything in line of sight & whenever my armour is broken I aim slightly higher to hit someone's head to armour gate.

Just play like you don't have dodge. Concussion grenades are super strong with it due to other survivability compounding strongly with dodge such as inaccuracy debuffs/armour gating.

Originally posted by B〄F Altonator:

Sicario is also best played in a light vest due to the fact you can regen all your armour on a dodge.

Bruh.

ICTV or suit for Sicario. Already gonna get one shot by shields & above may as well lean into dodge rather than be a pseudo dodge build.

If you do decide to play Sicario try to space out getting shot by 4s, that's the cooldown for the dodge buff when you get damaged.
To deal with Sicario smoke's visibility issue stay on the edge of the smoke. Throw it into a wall or stay on the otherside of a wall to stay out of the center.

Originally posted by Espy:

Looking for a Dodge build and how to play it

I forgot to talk about armour gating with Bullseye. If you have any amount of armour you cannot take hp dmg unless you get hit by a sniper or explosives/fire/gas.

• https://pd2builder.netlify.app/?s=5g3I0-4d0100010gF00ChN610-5&p=m&c=3-4f&a=0&t=4&d=5
  Tempest + AP Pistol. Get 4 Detection risk for max dodge. It's Copycat with 3/3/3/3/15 in case the link doesn't work.
  Aim center mass with AR, hit head if armour breaks to armour gate, be aggressive, even if you wound enemies they'll stagger 90% of the time due to Dire Need proc'ing near constantly & the 2s godmode from Copycat & Anarchist can overlap so use em while you can by getting shot & shooting often.
  You can dodge while invulnerable & the reflection effect can stagger enemies with Dire Need, that's one less enemy shooting you so that's quite nice, funny when snipers off themselves.
  
  
• https://pd2builder.netlify.app/?s=10381000dgh40010gF006N1i120-4&p=k&a=0&t=d&d=0
  The only time it's pretty okay & practical to use Sneaky Bastard aced due to how insane the dodge values on Hacker can be, Triple CR-805Bs or Krinkovs and maybe Tatonka. Hold mouse1 & wave your mouse over enemies while pressing 3 everynow & then when you see a big group. The skill ceiling on this one is slightly higher than other Hacker builds but it's the strongest IIRC (I most likely messed up here as I don't use triple smg hacker often with SB aced, some DS player can fix it if I goofed here.)
  
  
• https://pd2builder.netlify.app/?s=5g3c0-4d0100010gF00ChhC100100&p=k&a=0&t=d&d=5
  Safe & user friendly version with Uppers to prevent death. Tempest + AP Pistol reach 4 detection risk. Swap to AP Pistol when you see a group of shields or if you wanna safely deal with a dozer behind cover, if you run out of ammo for it stop using the pistol on non dozer/shields.
  Press 3 & kill groups of enemies to heal/gain dodge. Press 3 & do objectives while enemies are stunned.
  
  
• https://pd2builder.netlify.app/?s=5O3I0-4d0100010gF00011i000100&a=0&t=4&d=5
  Rogue/Sicario Union 5.56/Car-4/JP36c/AMR-16/AK-17/AK-5/AK/ Maybe Falcon? + AP Pistol
  Rogue is stronger but Sicario is more fun. If Sicario space out the shots you take to 4s since that's the cooldown on the buff.
  You can also use Burglar here if you're based & okay with a worse dodge deck.

Sorry for no shotguns here, I dislike how they have low dps in exchange for aoe.
Also sorry for no doc bags, I find they just don't get used if you have a strong build. The way my team dies is usually by a team wipe not via being grey & having no resources.