Godus
Danjal 14 Oct, 2014 @ 10:31pm
Godus Settlements - going into the future.
Starting with the outline.
So in response to the answer Peter has given in the Q&A video I would like to elaborate my perspective and a potential solution to the problem I forsee, with the current direction Godus is taking and how settlements may pose a problem.

Lets get one thing straight upfront, I don't think this is a high priority issue. Settlements "work" right now. This is something that will become a problem later on if its not dealt with however.
Its just one element in the whole machine, but its an element that can easily be fixed before it grows too large to fix.

Right now we have a small and manageable number of settlements.
We're looking at 3 sizes (small, medium, large) and 3 types (builder, farmer, miner) for a total of 9 settlement selections.
I recognize that the perception of the previous iteration of settlements was that the three statues were "fiddly" and that that wasn't a direction that 22cans favoured.
I also recognize that this primarily is an issue for the iOS/mobile version of Godus where touch-screen controls allow for less accuracy than we on PC have with the mouse.

So some of you reading this (aswell as people from 22cans) may remember the previous iteration of the Timeline, where you had to scroll/slide around a lot to get to the stickers you wanted to. This is a problem that is growing larger and becoming more tedious and is something that Peter acknowledges as such in the Q&A video.

Something that starts out as a functional and 'enjoyable' mechanic, does not scale well as numbers grow bigger.
Settlements are going to run into a similar problem.
As more settlements get introduced and potentially larger settlements get introduced, we get more and more options filling up that sub-menu. Making it a hassle to manage.

A problem in perception
Before describing my proposed solution to this, I want to elaborate on another "problem" with settlements. Which is one of perception.
Based on what Peter mentioned in the Q&A video, I'm getting the feeling that he sees abodes as single houses, settlements as small hamlets or villages and intends to integrate these small hamlets/villages into larger multi-discipline cities later in the game.

Now argueably this is a functional solution. However it does not remove the abovementioned problem of a clogged up settlement selection menu.
Moreover, as we are seeing right now, Settlements scale up poorly.
I'm not just talking about the belief and resources they produce in comparison to individual abodes.
But I'm talking about pure base numbers.
We're seeing settlements that have thousands or even tens of thousands of followers living in them.

At the current pacing, our first "cities" (squeeze settlements together into a zoned city) will be millions or even multi-millions strong metropolises.
I'm not even going to get started on the potential damage that comes from performance.
Just the idea that a medieval city or whatnot has millions upon millions of people living in it just feels off.

So then, what IS the solution?
The solution I'm proposing, taking into account platform specific performance.
Aswell as taking into account avoiding fiddly menu's and problems.
That solution would be the following:

For starters, extend the metaphor.
Keep the numbers in your mind while working within the system.
  • Step 1 - Simplify the menu.
    Rather than adding more and more settlements and clogging the menu there, you keep things clean and simple.
    Initially this would mean that you select the size settlement and that settlement becomes specified to the discipline you select (farmer, builder, miner etc).

  • Step 2 - Expansion and growth
    Once you reach a certain population size as you're adding more and more abodes to a settlement. This changes and the city prompts you with the option to "add" a new discipline.
    You can either do nothing, and it will continue as the game is right now keeping this entire settlement focused around a single industry.
    OR you can select a secondary focus for this city that has now reached thousands in population.

    This secondary focus allows you to place down a specialized industry HQ which will function as the "focus" for this new disciple. Thereby not resulting in fiddly menu's.
    Your main settlement (or your initial focus HQ) will function as the basis for your first industry.
    And your secondary focus HQ will function as the basis for your second industry.

Allowing a single settlement to keep growing, and maintaining a playable non-fiddly game. Without clogging any menu's or adding a ton of micro-management.

This would in turn be perfectly compatible with any form of "zoned" cities that may be created later on. And it would assist in keeping the entire game smooth and clean.

A secondary solution regarding performance
Right now we're seeing the following happen with farming and mining.
A larger plot size adds 1 to the "total resource count", while allowing for a larger production count.
In essence, there is no value in creating anything but size 1 plots with regards to unlocking technologies.
And the "stockpiled" resources (wheat and ore) are limited in usage, after building all the ore-beacons ore is basicly useless and wheat results in a similar resource drain.

Adding to this problem is the growing pathfinding issue slowing down the game.
So why not introduce the "settlement mechanic" to individual fields and mines aswell?
Squeezing together 3~4 or more seperate fields or mines into a single larger one with the farmers or miners forming a work-detail together. Thereby cutting down the pathfinding massively.

Similarly builders can be equipped with small tents which they pitch up around the location they build. As opposed to walking up and down from their house to the build-site.
Allowing for a more accurate build timer (as they sleep/rest on-site) and a drastic decrease in pathfinding requirements to the game as a whole.


Some final thoughts
As you can see, these suggestions extend on the very problems as posed by Peter Molyneux himself.
Avoiding creating a messy or bogged down menu aswell as avoiding fiddly micro-management by extending the existing systems and focusing on making the game more enjoyable and smooth to play.
Last edited by Danjal; 14 Oct, 2014 @ 11:42pm
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Showing 1-5 of 5 comments
vv [FuMM] 14 Oct, 2014 @ 10:42pm 
The builders in the tents might not get as good quality sleep as if they where back at home or perhaps the quality of their food isn't as good as back home. I can see this working with out removing the idea of energy being wasted because of the travel time. Perhaps it's a card we unlock?
Spiderweb 16 Oct, 2014 @ 2:19am 
I'm not addressing the "future" issue of the settlements, but why in its current state couldn't they work settlements/abodes like this:-

Individual followers/adobes simply train to be something else, allow the settlement/abode to be set to farmer/miner/builder/breeder. Got to be more realistic?

If your follower builds an small single abode with 1 population he gets 1 plot in any available direction but has to be adjacent to the abode (its then locked and can not be converted into settlement without unassigning and destroying field/mine plot connected) size/amount of plots go up with the size of the population in the originally built abode (i.e. the original plot size).

If you create a settlement (it needs to be from unassigned abodes), the plots surrounding the settlements in the area of influence should be then be assignable to farming or mining or worshipping or none(builder) , number of plots related to the size of the settlement population. That might start to limit the often silly settlement sizes, you could even require the settlement to produce wheat/ore from those plots to increase/feed population or allow additional abodes to be added.

Edit:- Even other abodes in area of influence could contribute to the settlements resources.

Unfortunately this idea sounds like you'd need to revamp settlements/abodes so doubt it could ever happen :(
Last edited by Spiderweb; 16 Oct, 2014 @ 2:22am
Borja 21 Oct, 2014 @ 4:18am 
I think thar Spiderweb & the secondary solution of Danjal sounds good.

In History the first social mens joined around caves, then improved their skills and create shelters or small tents. Growing and became villages and cities. Each one of this kind of home had his area of influence. From small plots to "son all you can see someday will be yours!!".

I like to change the idea of city to become Region. A tool that u can use to mark an area in the map, and everyone who lives there dismantled his small houses and travel to the center of the area to join a new society. The region could be marked with symbolic fences to be visual (u remember the cultural area in Civilization?) and demand minimun resources to be create as small region. You have to craft the resources in your period of smal houses.

Now you have a new region that we going to name for example Basque Country (where i live) and had his numbers of máximun population, weat or ore. And had an area of influence where could be green land for farmers and grey land for miners (in the future more stile of people of course) So you have 3 kind of persons... Farmers Miners and Builders. Now i like to create the PRIEST (breeders) who travel on the world picking up the beleve of the houses out of borders... the WARRIORS who patrols the region and you have a maximun of this related to the resources of the region (this is an interesting idea to improve the gamestyle) and the MAYOR (or the count if you join for example 3 the regions under his domains or king if you have 5....) who gives radius bonuses for workers and militaries (you can move it) and you can loose influence and area of the region if it dies.

This Regions and his capitals can grow adding more area (and paying more resources) and can decrease too if the people arent happy and decide to come back to the solitary mountain.

Imagine roads between capitals for carry resources and faster travels.

The military mecanics are interesting for me because you can defend your region (or country) and can attack your neighbourgs. Diferent targets... green land that were near the border and want to join to your region, or directly atack the capital of the enemy region to conquer them...

With this you can see similar map that the history of our countries. And solve the problem to see my civilization like a virus in the world

I think i'm dreaming so much.... many changes to our villages, but some of the ideas maybe can be implement in other ways or future growing of the products.

Scurra 22 Oct, 2014 @ 5:06pm 
I must admit that I always thought it was weird that settlement size was merely limited by ground space, thus leading to those megacities that are fun to build but which ultimately feel completely wrong.
Meanwhile, as noted, there is currently no sense of resource progression (I was expecting things like bread and steel to follow from wheat and ore but there's been no signs of anything like that.)
My own suggestion was that it should be the resource access that limits the size of your city. If all you have is wheat, then you can only have a village (with a maximum size.) If you can produce X wheat then you can progress to a town, which can then make bread. If you can produce X bread, then you can progress to a city, and so on.
But at heart is the need to restrict the size of settlements in this first age of the game. You should be considering placements carefully, not just flattening everywhere and dropping settlements whenever you can manage it.
And the dilemma is that I suspect there is no viable solution. The initial phase of the game is so tough that discovering a future limit has been breached before you have any chance of addressing it may not be a resolvable problem. (You can't impose a limit on settlements in Homeworld as players will not know what that means. You might be able to do that in future worlds, but then they would feel out-of-phase with Homeworld.)
Danjal 22 Oct, 2014 @ 5:21pm 
I agree that a resource-based progressional system could very well solve some of the problems we are faced with within the current confines of how settlements scale upwards. Both physically aswell as mechanically.

Though when the community and more specifically Peter Molyneux strongly spoke out against a resource-based progression. I chose to alter my approach to one more suitable to the baseline of mechanics as chosen by 22cans.

It seems that there is a strong fear that the requirement of resources would both make Godus too much of an RTS game aswell as making the concepts too much micro-management and too fiddly.
Its also a fear that this would in turn scare away the more casual of players.


To that goal I chose to offer solutions that focused on skirting around the addition of more fiddly matters and to avoid micro-management. Instead focusing on a more robust, yet still flexible foundation.
And to plan for the future like that.


I also envisioned a mechanic where wheat and ore were to be followed by more advanced versions and a wider variety of resources.
Though perhaps the fleshing out of the current resource system (both belief and gems aswell as wheat/ore and stickers) is a matter best left for another thread.
I have in the past set out a rather lengthy suggestion on how this could potentially be done, as have various others.

The possibilities are quite wideranging.
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