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VernonKun 1 Mar, 2020 @ 8:55pm
Stamina Trait Discussion & Play Styles
Stamina Trait Discussion & Play Styles

There doesn't seem to be much discussion about which stamina trait to choose, and people usally answer "it depends on personal preference and play style". Here I want to list some objective strengths and weaknesses of each trait.

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Some Lists for reference:
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Oppotunity cost - Popular non-stamina trait combinations:
- Killing Blow + Regrowth (exclusive to all stamina traits except on elf's 1h sword)
- Regrowth + Scavenger
- Bloodlust + Swift Slaying Normal
- Regrowth + Berserking
- Bloodlust + Earthing Rune

List of stamina traits:
- Devastating Blow
- Improved Guard
- Improved Pommel
- Perfect Balance
- Second Wind
- Endurance

Popular stamina trait combinations:
- Improved Pommel + Devastating Blow
- Second Wind + Devastating Blow
- Improved Guard + Off Balance

Red trait combinations:
- Perfect Balance + Endurance (Red Axe and Shield)
- Perfect Balance + Improved Guard (Red Axe and Shield, Red Hammer and Shield)
- Perfect Balance + Improved Pommel (Kruber's Red 2H Sword)
- Killing Blow + Regrowth Normal + Devastating Blow (Red Hammer, Red Executioner Sword)
- Improved Guard + Off Balance (Red Mace and Shield)

Ranged weapons that can substitute melee pushes:
- Drakefire Pistols (best with haste, crowd killing, staggers multiple SVs, also regenerates health with regrowth)
- Beam Staff (crowd killing, regenerates health with regrowth)
- Conflagration Staff (best with haste, staggers multiple SVs, also regenerates health with regrowth, effective at any range)
- Hagbane Swiftbow (best with haste, crowd killing, regenerates health with regrowth / bloodlust, effective at any range)
- Blunderbuss (bashes regenerates health with regrowth, stronger than regrowth charged on shields)
- Grudge-raker (bashes regenerates health with regrowth, stronger than regrowth charged on shields)

Push Radius = 2:
All melee weapons except...

Push Radius = 2.25:
2H Swords, Executioner Swords

Push Radius = 2.5:
2H Hammers, All Shields

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I started the game using Sword and Shield so I had an inclination towards improved pommel + devastating blow (or non-stamina traits + devastating blow) when I first use 1h weapons. I mostly use second wind after I get used to the dodge dance style and after I have enough tokens to roll traits. (I use the lock trait mod.)

To discuss the effectiveness of the stamina traits it is important to distinguish 2 main play styles...

Dodge Dance with minimal block and push actions:
- Pro: No stamina cost
- Pro: Doesn't stop attack actions so high DPS is maintained
- Pro: Increase attack range, able to attack and stagger rats in a long frontline
- Pro: Dodges has effects against SV, all specials (especially runners and packmasters), and ogres
- Pro: Usually only one stamina trait is needed, enabling other trait combinations
- Con: Dodges stop stamina regeneration
- Con: Doesn't help teammates
- Con: Requires better timing, so less effective and more risky with high ping
- Con: Swift Striding trinket is useful on 3-dodge count weapon, and mandatory on 2h weapons. That occupies one trinket slot if the weapon can't help you defend with pushes & blocks and you need to rely on dodges.

Pushes and Blocks (is there a name for it?) :
- Pro: Able to help teammates (prevent hits taken, stagger rats in all directions and wide range, stop SV overheads, etc.)
- Pro: Pushes can get you through dense hordes / ambushes (some stamina traits required) (map, tactics and position dependent)
- Pro: Works also with high ping
- Pro: Improved Pommel + Devastating Blow combo allows you to reach downed or disabled players across sea of rats
- Pro: Blocking with improved guard might be the only way to deal with hyperdensity in tight spots, although hyperdensity should be avoided by positioning
- Pro: Shields can block gunner bullets and bait the gunner to shoot at the rats
- Pro: With high ping, it is safer to initiate attacks with a push
- Con: Pushes and blocks have no effect against specials (especially runners and packmasters) and ogre slams
- Con: Pushes have no effect against climbing and dropping rats (rats don't receive stagger), and unlike attack stagger you won't kill the rats as rats are climbing
- Con: Blocking SV attacks and ogre punches often breaks guard even with stamina traits
- Con: Pushes and blocks are exclusive to attack actions so DPS is lowered
- Con: In case of intentional blocking rat attacks to stagger rats, you need to wait for the rats to finish the attacks
- Con: Usually devastating blow and another stamina trait are needed to maximize the effect, leaving only one trait that is usually filled with healing

Of course two styles are 2 extremes of a spectrum and can be combined in various degree, but do notice that dodging + pushing & blocking a lot will deplete stamina quickly. Usually 2h weapons can't dodge dance that effectively so players have to rely on pushes and blocks.

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With all the context setup, here is my understanding of the effects of the stamina traits:

Devastating Blow:
- Almost mandatory for the push & block style
- Stagger SV attacks to help teammates
- Gives you more space to the team in front line against rat situation
- Gives you space when surrounded by trash rats and/or multiple SV
- Allows you to push stagger SV sweeps and overheads (weapon dependent)
- Allows you to push stagger gunners (weapon dependent)
- In horde + runner or horde + packmaster situations, gives you more space to dodge
- Improved Pommel + Devastating Blow combo allows you to reach downed or disabled players across sea of rats
- Pushes around downed or disabled players to minimize damage to them has more effect as rats are staggered for longer duration
- Gives teammate space when a teammate revive in horde (probably improved pommel required)
- Buffs staggering power of attacks if you are host or if the host has devastating blow fix
- On shields it has the negative effect of pushing rats too far away, but also allows the shield bash to stagger multiple SVs
- Buffs low push strength weapons (e.g. elf's weapons, falchion) to the same level as other 1h weapons with devastating blow
- Stormvermins can be staggered for close range crossbow / handgun etc. headshot
-

Improved Guard:
- Reduces expected stamina cost of blocking slaves/clan rat attacks from 1 stamina (0.5 stamina shield) to 0.35 stamina, meaning it increases expected number of blocked attacks from 6 to 17 on a 3-stamina shield weapon
- Almost no effect in a normal front line against rat situation
- Doesn't help with reflexive blocking as you won't get many hits at once
- Doesn't require devastating blow to be effective
- Helps with kiting, but unlike second wind it won't replenish stamina
- Compared to second wind kiting, you won't want to push the rats but you can stop and block for a brief moment to stagger a few rats that are going to hit you to create space
- Helps with block reviving (especially useful in last stand where players die a lot)
- On a shield blocking can help you in massively outnumbered situations, since the slot system (and the natural density of rats) restrict the number of attacks coming at you at the same time, and a shield has a chance to block SV attacks; 3-stamina shield weapon still can't block at one spot
- Allows you to block off (hyperdense) rats at a choke point (as shown in doom_hamster's video), where pushes can't stagger rats on the second row and attacks can't stagger all the rats in range
- Nice combo with off balance
- No block cost can trigger when you block with 0 stamina
- I think improved guard can serve as a support role, mainly to pull off block revive in horde, kite rats away from teammatesk, or pair with off balance to fight in tight places
-

Improved Pommel:
- Reduces expected stamina cost of pushing from 2 stamina (1 stamina shield) to 0.6 stamina, meaning it increases expected number of pushes from 3 to 10 on a 3-stamina shield weapon
- Often used with devastating blow for crowd control
- You won't run out of stamina with improved pommel + devastating blow except with the most frequent push spamming, so the pushes can replace all other defense actions
- With Improved pommel + devastating blow, push spams can help the team through difficulty spikes and serious mistakes (almost as effective as second wind individually speaking but also help the team)
- Gives you more push attacks on dual wield weapons, 1h axes and ceremonial dagger. Push attacks on dual wield weapons are good melee anti-armor attacks, and push attack on ceremonial dagger increases movement speed a lot.
- Improved Pommel + Devastating Blow combo allows you to reach downed or disabled players across sea of rats
- Allows you to spam pushes around downed or disabled players to minimize damage to them
- Helps teammate to revive in horde when paired with devastating blow
- Shields don't need devastating blow, so you can have 2 non-stamina traits and use improved pommel alone to defend
- Since pushes also trigger safety in numbers, improved pommel can be a nice combo with that trait
- With high ping, it is safer to initiate attacks with a push, improved pommel gives you more pushes although I would say it is not so noticeable
-

Perfect Balance:
- Adds 2 stamina (1 stamina shield), reduces stamina regeneration delay from 1 second to 0.5 second, and reduces stamina regeneration delay after guard breaks from 2.5 seconds to 1.25 seconds
- Generic trait, more effective on low stamina weapons (falchion, glaive, dual daggers)
- Shoter stamina regeneration delay means you can get the most out of it if you pace your stamina spending, that includes dodges in dodge dance if you time the dodges right (as mentioned by Karl Power)
- Doesn't help much with burst stamina cost, compared to other traits
- On 3-stamina shield weapons, adding one more to 4-stamina allows you to block SV overhead without guard break when you have full stamina
-

Second Wind:
- 50% chance to get full stamina when blocking with 0 stamina, also triggers when blocking with guard broken
- Can't trace the codes completely, according to the code it reduces guard break stunned duration from 2.5 seconds to 1.25 second, but in-game experience suggests much shorter stunned duration
- From my own experience, you can block a few more hits (maybe 4-5) even when your guard is broken and the trait doesn't proc, in that sense it has some benefits of improved guard, and if second wind procs from any of those hits, the stunned duration will be set to 0
- The to-go generic trait for all weapons and both play styles
- Doesn't help in normal situations (although it helps in a sense that you don't worry about low stamina), but it helps you to survive difficulty spikes and serious mistakes that can wipe the team (but it doesn't help teammates except that you can push to taunt rats and try to block all the attacks, or kite the rats away)
- Helps with kiting and with high mobility weapons you can kite almost indefinitely, as you can replenish stamina just by blocking
- Compared to improved guard kiting, the regeneated stamina allows you to push and create space between you and the rats (obvious combo with devastating blow)
- Very useful in true solo / clunch situations, where lots of kiting is involved
- Helps with burst stamina cost, as you don't worry about guard break that much
- Also helps off balance a bit for same reason
- Helps in ogre fight because sometimes it is necessary to block the attacks and have 0 stamina afterwards, when second wind provides best protection
- Less risky with block revive in horde, but the revive can be interrupted if guard breaks unlike with improved guard
- Doesn't require devastating blow to be effective
-

Endurance:
(I have almost never use it except on red axe and shield so it is mostly speculations)
- 20% per attack per target hit to gain full stamina
- Effect depends on number of rats hit by the weapon attacks, more effective on hammer, Kruber's mace, shields, 2h swords, executioner sword, and other fast swinging 4-target weapons
- Helps the push & block style, as you spend stamina constantly
- Helps with stamina regeneration in dodge dance
- Doesn't help in difficulty spikes if you can't attack
- More effective on shields, as shield bashes are safe to use in horde and you get 5/6 stamina shields back instead of 3 on other weapons
- Can be buffed by swift slaying / berserking?
- ???

Recommended Stamina Traits:
- Second Wind
- Improved Pommel + Devastating Blow
- Second Wind + Devastating Blow
- Improved Pommel (on shields)
- Improved Guard (on shields)
- Endurance (on shields)
- Devastating Blow (to deal with multiple trash rats + SV, stagger SV at close range for crossbow / handgun headshot)
- Improved Guard + Devastating Blow (as support role in last stand)
- Improved Guard + Off Balance (as support role in SV fight and ogre fight)
Last edited by VernonKun; 20 Mar, 2020 @ 10:18am
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Showing 1-15 of 55 comments
hashteve 2 Mar, 2020 @ 1:26am 
Originally posted by VernonKun:

- Con: Swift Striding trinket is useful on 3-dodge count weapon, and mandatory on 2h weapons. That occupies one trinket slot if the weapon can't help you defend with pushes & blocks and you need to rely on dodges.

Usually 2h weapons can't dodge dance that effectively so players have to rely on pushes and blocks.

imho i disagree with swift strider trinket, i never use it and i mained salty 2h/repeater for ~800 hrs before i moved on to other chars and other combos with salty. after your 2h dodges start depleting, do a jump after your third dodge and it will reset the dodge degredation, very simple and quick fix and removes the necessity for swift trinket. otherwise ive only used it for speed runs.

and for 2nd quoted point, again speaking from my own experience, i actually rarely block/push when facing hordes, especially if im up against a corner to take advantage of the slots system. otherwise if im caught offguard in the open id go towards the horde to prevent lunge atks [which are what you mainly need to block or push] and take a few swings and start dodging in a circle aroundt the horde to couple them up and since the 2h hits so many targets per swing i usually have no problems [unless ping] in mb1-mb1-dodging them until the end.

Originally posted by VernonKun:
Pushes and Blocks (is there a name for it?) :
i personally call it counterplay, since your blocking to get a stagger then hit, or pushing to get room then hit.
#1
Neptune Towers 2 Mar, 2020 @ 7:46am 
You either take second wind or you're hipster who will die like a pepega in instances where second wind would have otherwise saved you.
#2
Stainless Steel Rat 2 Mar, 2020 @ 6:15pm 
Originally posted by .xXx.W4R10KK.xXx.:
You either take second wind or you're hipster who will die like a pepega in instances where second wind would have otherwise saved you.

:100percent:
#3
hashteve 3 Mar, 2020 @ 1:50am 
Originally posted by .xXx.W4R10KK.xXx.:
You either take second wind or you're hipster who will die like a pepega in instances where second wind would have otherwise saved you.

as dps ye, as shielders endurance is broken
#4
Karl Power 3 Mar, 2020 @ 9:54am 
Originally posted by VernonKun:

Perfect Balance:
- Adds 2 stamina (1 stamina shield), reduces stamina regeneration delay from 1 second to 0.5 second, and reduces stamina regeneration delay after guard breaks from 2.5 seconds to 1.25 seconds
- Generic trait, more effective on low stamina weapons (falchion, glaive, dual daggers)
- Shoter stamina regeneration delay means you can get the most out of it if you pace your stamina spending
- Doesn't help much with burst stamina cost, compared to other traits
- On 3-stamina shield weapons, adding one more to 4-stamina allows you to block SV overhead without guard break when you have full stamina
-

One big plus for perfect balance on a dodge-dancer is that it will allow you to (slowly) regenerate your stamina while dodging. That is a powerful boon and can be quite the life-saver. However as has been mentioned Second Wind probably is the one ultimate stamina trait. Any regular cata run can go well for me with any trait, but whenever I do Trials of the Foolhardy or Last Stand at wave 30+, the only weapon that keeps me alive (IF I stay alive) is a one-hander with second wind.

Originally posted by VernonKun:
Endurance:
(I have almost never use it except on red axe and shield so it is mostly speculations)
- 20% per attack per target hit to gain full stamina
- Effect depends on number of rats hit by the weapon attacks, more effective on hammer, Kruber's mace, shields, 2h swords, executioner sword, and other fast swinging 4-target weapons
- Helps the push & block style, as you spend stamina constantly
- Helps with stamina regeneration in dodge dance
- Doesn't help in difficulty spikes if you can't attack
- More effective on shields, as shield bashes are safe to use in horde and you get 5/6 stamina shields back instead of 3 on other weapons
- Can be buffed by swift slaying / berserking?
- ???

I've used Endurance extensively on a mace & shield and a mace. On both weapons it is very powerful in theory. My idea was that it would enable me to actively regenerate stamina, and it certainly does that, though I've always felt that the actual proc chance is significantly lower than 20%, and Endurance is easily eclipsed by both Perfect Balance, Improved Pommel and Second Wind. My mace & shield with Improved Pommel just enabled me to plow rats for so much longer than the Endurance version (I basically do swing-swing-push with mace & shield). I've turned to Improved Pommel (for shields and 2h hammers) and Second Wind (for anything else) and never went back.

Last edited by Karl Power; 3 Mar, 2020 @ 10:08am
#5
Karl Power 3 Mar, 2020 @ 10:07am 
Originally posted by VernonKun:
Pushes and Blocks (is there a name for it?) :

Where's doom hamster when you need him? I suggest Rat Plowing, for the pushing part I mean. Works nicely with a shield + Improved Pommel.

I like supporting a team with my rat plow. However I feel that the more competent the team, the less I am needed in my function as a rat plow. From my experience I'd say that a quick special killer, an famous ogre slayer (like Mumble), or a Stormvermin-smasher is more valuable to a team than a crowd controller. Public matches (especially on sundays) will however benefit from a shield. Not to mention barge fights.

I did notice however that ther are some highly competent players using dev blow, pommel, and healing, and do very well with that (Xq comes to mind, when he plays Sienna, he usually carries a sword with these traits). Dodging is supplemented with pushes, especially against Stormies and dense rat hordes.

This works out fine for really good players. I can do reasonably well with an axe with those traits. However sooner or later I'll catch a halberd, or be slapped by an ogre into a horde and then it is time to die-die. You can't push an ogre and second wind is the lifesaver to have here. I'd say the rat plowing playstyle is - for most players - more risky than the dodge-dancer's approach.
#6
VernonKun 3 Mar, 2020 @ 10:32am 
I wonder if anyone finds a use for improved guard? Except when paired with off balance I seldom use it, although I see some last stand veterans use improved guard + dev. blow for kiting and reviving respawned teammates. Surely it can block attacks from a surrounding horde of trash rats, but you will have to rely on luck when facing >2 stormvermins. In contrast, improved pommel + dev. blow let you stagger any number of SVs in the push radius.
#7
hashteve 3 Mar, 2020 @ 10:37am 
offbalance is honestly op in teamplay, but only in teamplay. ive used it before on rapier and kerrilians sword.

only instance ive used improved guard is when i didnt have enough gems to roll something else, its alright on 1h weapons for me, heavy weapons not so much
#8
VernonKun 3 Mar, 2020 @ 10:46am 
Funnily, most of the first orange melee weapons I rolled came with second wind, but I was reading some guides (probably about old patches) that second wind is less ideal and I waited long until I rolled improved pommel + dev. blow.
#9
VernonKun 3 Mar, 2020 @ 10:49am 
Improved pommel + dev. blow work very well on 2H Hammers (as everyone knows), 2H Axe and 1H Axes. Instead of keeping distance from the density of rats as you do with dodge dance, with this combo you will want to move into the horde to make sure you can stagger as many rats as possible. You can also joust with the pushes.
#10
VernonKun 3 Mar, 2020 @ 10:51am 
I have tried improved pommel + dev. blow on 1h swords or similar weapons, but since the rats will spread out after you push, you can't hit as many of them with 1h swords and that lower the offensive ability a lot. There is no problem for 2H Hammers, 2H Axe and 1H Axes as they have good single target attacks.
#11
Karl Power 3 Mar, 2020 @ 10:52am 
Originally posted by VernonKun:
I wonder if anyone finds a use for improved guard?

EDITED COMPLETELY BECAUSE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

Before I went to Second Wind, Improved Guard was my favourite stamina trait. It's really good if you use your stamina for blocking only, which I do with most 1h weapons. You can take a stroll along the square in "Town Meeting" with a horde behind you. It trumps Second Wind in that respect. Once your stamina is gone, of course, as when an ogre slaps you, you die.

An obvious combo with Improved Guard is Off Balance. I tried that for a while. Against the ogre it can be useful. Against everything else, I felt that the damage boon to the team through off balance is offset completely by the lack of damage I did while standing and blocking.

Doom hamster really was a proponent of Improved Guard. He loved blocking for his team, as he shows here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LkXK9iDHdU&t=329s
Last edited by Karl Power; 3 Mar, 2020 @ 11:38am
#12
VernonKun 3 Mar, 2020 @ 2:07pm 
Looking back at doom_hamster's video now, I would say in most of the situation improved pommel + dev. blow can work as well if not better, except dealing with hyperdensity at choke points, because pushing can stop rat attacks targeted towards other players, while blocking only affect those rats targeting you. I would say even with improved guard it is important to push to attract attention of rats, so that the rats attack you and get stagger by the block. With a shield this is not an issue, but with other weapons that mean you only has 2 or less stamina for blocking, and the push does not reach as far. With improved pommel it is easy to spam pushes that affect large area of rats.

I think his strategy works better in older patches because weapons' killing power is not as strong and crowd control is important. Before patch 1.5 cata is almost like today's deathwish, and there were much fewer OP options (apart from elf) before patch 1.9. Now cata is like the old nightmare where players kill everything before the rats even have a chance to deal damage. I think doom_hamster developed most of his strategy before patch 1.9, probably in patches 1.7-1.8.

In this aspect, I do appreciate deathwish bringing back some strategic elements of the game.

Old video so gameplay was not that skillful... (also I rejoined after disconnected at the beginning)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr4mlUw1tLs
Last edited by VernonKun; 3 Mar, 2020 @ 3:24pm
#13
VernonKun 3 Mar, 2020 @ 2:11pm 
The "stagger overwrite" issue also affects 1h swords with dev. blow, because the stagger from normal attack is very low, and even when I can hit multiple rats on the ground, the rats all get mild stagger and are ready to attack you from a wide angle. With 1h axes however, you can just focus on one rat after another, and kill the rat to make sure it is no longer a threat.
#14
VernonKun 3 Mar, 2020 @ 2:15pm 
Originally posted by .xXx.W4R10KK.xXx.:
You either take second wind or you're hipster who will die like a pepega in instances where second wind would have otherwise saved you.

I find keeping myself alive fairly easy in most maps, regardless of traits, while the challenging part is to keep the teammates alive... for the purpose of keeping the books, or in some map it is necessary to have a full team for the coming difficulty spike.
#15
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