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Dr Duh 24 Jan, 2019 @ 1:05pm
Logging Camp vs. Wood Collector
Is it intended that the logging camp is only half as efficient (resource-wise) as a wood collector?

From a single isolated forest hex over 24 turns a wood collector (with no bonuses) collects 2 timber per turn for a total of 48 timber after 24 turns. The same hex with a logging camp manned by a logger with no bonuses produces 1 timber per turn over 24 turns for a total of 24 timber.

The only reason at present to use a logging camp would seem to be the time-wise advantage if you can place it such that it harvests 3+ hexes with one camp, although doing so wastes half your potential harvest. If you can devote two clans to the task you'd be far better off using a wood collector + a wood bundler.
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Showing 1-15 of 18 comments
BLACKcOPstRIPPa 24 Jan, 2019 @ 1:11pm 
Wow good to know.

Gonna look into this alittle myself love finding this stuff out but that is really good to know😊

Plus that timber instead of going into another lumber camp can go into a farm or mine so it can be better spent helping the economy grow faster.
#1
xtrÖm 24 Jan, 2019 @ 1:17pm 
Interesting... I just assumed the camps would be better. It's a bit strange that they aren't.

How do you make them harvest multiple hexes?
#2
Dr Duh 24 Jan, 2019 @ 1:22pm 
Originally posted by Accatyyc:
Interesting... I just assumed the camps would be better. It's a bit strange that they aren't.

How do you make them harvest multiple hexes?
They harvest adjacent hexes automatically.



Originally posted by BLACKcOPstRIPPa:
Wow good to know.

Gonna look into this alittle myself love finding this stuff out but that is really good to know😊

Plus that timber instead of going into another lumber camp can go into a farm or mine so it can be better spent helping the economy grow faster.

Logging camps cost no resources to build. BTW, like all structures it can only be build within your borders.

Now, where it could be very worthwhile is if you got a clan with a big bonus to resource collection AND you make them happy (giving another bonus to resource collection) and you have a big forest nearby that you can place your logging camp to cover 3+ hexes. Compared to using the same guy as a wood collector you'd still be wasting resources, but the time and labor advantage in the early game of collecting maybe 6+ timber per turn with one clan could be a winner.
Last edited by Dr Duh; 24 Jan, 2019 @ 1:29pm
#3
geepope 24 Jan, 2019 @ 1:24pm 
Lumber camps don't cost anything to build and let you push your borders, which can be handy (especially if you want to have your settlement wander off.) Being able to sit inside a building can also be important for some clans' happiness. Also, by the time you exhaust 2 or 3 forests ideally you should have some form of stone blocks available and are building sustainable buildings, so unless you're short on forests I wouldn't worry too much about using them efficiently.
#4
T3h Brambl3 25 Jan, 2019 @ 7:18am 
I agree it's not intuitive at all that your logging camp produces fewer resources than a wood collector. I can see the advantage in "wasting" wood with a camp since it means you are having a single clan do the work of several wood collectors if the camp is depleting several forests at once. But still, it was not what I expected when I built them.
#5
Jon Shafer  [developer] 25 Jan, 2019 @ 9:20am 
This is actually intentional. The Wood Collector/Wood Bundler combo is indeed nice, but it also costs 2 clans instead of just 1.

The Logging Camp is kind of meant to represent reckless harvesting of resources, whereas the Wood Collector is havesting Timber in an initially-slower but more sustainable manner. Logging Camps are for when you want to get some Timber NOW (the lack of resource cost also reflects this).

That said, I may tweak the balance here still. Gonna think about this one some more.

What do you guys think? Should Logging Camps just be more FUN? Wood Bundlers have a lot of synergy, but Logging Camps are kind of out there by themselves.

- Jon
#6
geepope 25 Jan, 2019 @ 9:32am 
Originally posted by Jon Shafer:
This is actually intentional. The Wood Collector/Wood Bundler combo is indeed nice, but it also costs 2 clans instead of just 1.

The Logging Camp is kind of meant to represent reckless harvesting of resources, whereas the Wood Collector is havesting Timber in an initially-slower but more sustainable manner. Logging Camps are for when you want to get some Timber NOW (the lack of resource cost also reflects this).

That said, I may tweak the balance here still. Gonna think about this one some more.

What do you guys think? Should Logging Camps just be more FUN? Wood Bundlers have a lot of synergy, but Logging Camps are kind of out there by themselves.

- Jon

It's not actually just about the Collecter + Bundler combo - wood collecters harvest a base of 2 wood/turn from 1 forest, but logging camps only harvest 1 wood/turn from each forest, so if you only have 1-2 forests then the wood collector is vastly more efficient on a 1-to-1 comparison.
Last edited by geepope; 25 Jan, 2019 @ 9:33am
#7
Jon Shafer  [developer] 25 Jan, 2019 @ 9:38am 
Originally posted by geepope:
It's not actually just about the Collecter + Bundler combo - wood collecters harvest a base of 2 wood/turn from 1 forest, but logging camps only harvest 1 wood/turn from each forest, so if you only have 1-2 forests then the wood collector is vastly more efficient on a 1-to-1 comparison.

Right, yeah. By themselves though Wood Collectors are a fair bit slower than Logging Camps. Again, maybe the balance is off, but the fact that Logging Camps are less efficient was at least part of the initial design for them.

- Jon
#8
geepope 25 Jan, 2019 @ 9:48am 
Originally posted by Jon Shafer:
Originally posted by geepope:
It's not actually just about the Collecter + Bundler combo - wood collecters harvest a base of 2 wood/turn from 1 forest, but logging camps only harvest 1 wood/turn from each forest, so if you only have 1-2 forests then the wood collector is vastly more efficient on a 1-to-1 comparison.

Right, yeah. By themselves though Wood Collectors are a fair bit slower than Logging Camps. Again, maybe the balance is off, but the fact that Logging Camps are less efficient was at least part of the initial design for them.

- Jon

Given a single hex of forest, Wood Collecters are FASTER BY THEMSELVES in the currently released build.

Logging Camps are ONLY faster IF AND ONLY IF there are 3+ forests within reach, which you're not guaranteed to have in your neighborhood early on.

I don't think this is necessarily a balance problem, since different production routes being viable in different settings is 100% part of the game design, but it should probably be signposted more clearly that logging camps are a waste of trees if you only have 1-2 forests to collect from.
#9
Jon Shafer  [developer] 25 Jan, 2019 @ 9:51am 
That's fair. I've always seen the main use case for Logging Camps to be large forests though. Otherwise it's like building a skyscraper in the middle of a desert. This could be communicated more clearly though, for sure. I'll adjust the description.

- Jon
#10
BLACKcOPstRIPPa 25 Jan, 2019 @ 10:16am 
Originally posted by Jon Shafer:
Originally posted by geepope:
It's not actually just about the Collecter + Bundler combo - wood collecters harvest a base of 2 wood/turn from 1 forest, but logging camps only harvest 1 wood/turn from each forest, so if you only have 1-2 forests then the wood collector is vastly more efficient on a 1-to-1 comparison.

Right, yeah. By themselves though Wood Collectors are a fair bit slower than Logging Camps. Again, maybe the balance is off, but the fact that Logging Camps are less efficient was at least part of the initial design for them.

- Jon
I personally like the way you did it.
Like you said it's the timber for a long time vs A LOT of timber for now type strat.
It's small choices like this that can add up to make the game really strategic.
Personally I wouldn't make the camp better just because it is tier 2 vs tier 1 resource gathering.
#11
geepope 25 Jan, 2019 @ 11:18am 
Originally posted by BLACKcOPstRIPPa:
Originally posted by Jon Shafer:

Right, yeah. By themselves though Wood Collectors are a fair bit slower than Logging Camps. Again, maybe the balance is off, but the fact that Logging Camps are less efficient was at least part of the initial design for them.

- Jon
I personally like the way you did it.
Like you said it's the timber for a long time vs A LOT of timber for now type strat.
It's small choices like this that can add up to make the game really strategic.
Personally I wouldn't make the camp better just because it is tier 2 vs tier 1 resource gathering.

I enjoy it from a balance perspective too but it's definitely likely to throw new players for a loop because it's so different from other forager/structure relationships.
#12
Dr Duh 25 Jan, 2019 @ 2:30pm 
One way to tweak the balance a bit if you don't want to talk about factional yields per tile would be to say it yields 1 timber per turn plus 1 timber per tile over x - so if x=1, yield for a 1-tile forest is 1, 2->3, 3->4 etc. If x=2, 1->1, 2->2, 3->4, 4->5 etc
#13
xtrÖm 25 Jan, 2019 @ 3:29pm 
Now that I’ve played some more and read your reasoning for this system, I really like it :) it shouldn’t change IMO. but the descriptions could be much better. I kind of just assumed that a logging camp would be better and probably skimmed the description.

Perhaps logging camps shouldn’t be allowed to build on a single forest tile? That would make it clearer, and since it’s not worth it anyway there is nothing to lose strategically
#14
Jon Shafer  [developer] 28 Jan, 2019 @ 12:33pm 
Cool, glad people understand the thinking behind the design. :) I've updated the description to make things more clear. I'm not sure how much blocking single-tile Logging Camps will help though, as if that's what you were aiming for then you probably don't have (m)any better options and have already trained a Logger, so it's too late. Hopefully the description will be enough (even though nobody reads! This is the #1 lesson I've picked up during my career :P).

- Jon
#15
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Jon Shafer's At the Gates > General Discussions > Topic Details
Date Posted: 24 Jan, 2019 @ 1:05pm
Posts: 18

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