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Jon Shafer's At the Gates

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Harry 28 Jan, 2019 @ 1:42pm
An Open Letter, Asking for a Difficulty Curve
Hi Jon,

I know you mentioned making late game more interesting is on your radar, but this is related distinct topic in my mind:

This is a PvE game. Player starts out weak and grows overtime. Environment, however, is not getting more challenging overtime, with the exception of family growth. (e.g. AI doesn't grow, stockpiles don't degrade, and (to compare to Sid's Colonization) there is no European overlord amassing an army and raising your tax rate. In other words, the most challenging days are the first winter or two; if you can make it that far, it's hard to lose.

The only exception to this is families per clan growth, but that challenge really isn't growing at the same pace as the player is developing, and worst come worst, can be resolved by killing off the big clans.

If you introduce some sense of rush, ticking clock, preferrably in the form of exponiential growth in the challenge the environment poses, I think the game experience past first 60 turns will be so much better. Maybe, for example, the Romans do NOT give you random gifts, but rather demand ever-increasing tribute? Barbarian invasions? Caravans charging greater fees? Or maybe AIs who aren't behavior like NPCs but rather competing factions trying to win just like the players? I look to Thea the Awakening, Sid Meier's Col, XCOM 2, and of course, your own Civ V for reference in terms of how to scale up challenges as the game progresses.

I know this is a big ask in terms of game design, and as the designer you should certainly not listen to every crazy idea coming your way, but please consider the difficulty curve. A game that feels punishing in the beginning but becomes a cakewalk by the end isn't one for most hardcore strategy players.
Last edited by Harry; 28 Jan, 2019 @ 6:44pm
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Showing 1-10 of 10 comments
Harry 28 Jan, 2019 @ 1:48pm 
-Yours,
<Signed>
Harry
Last edited by Harry; 28 Jan, 2019 @ 6:44pm
#1
Jon Shafer  [developer] 29 Jan, 2019 @ 8:41am 
I agree Harry, and this is something I'll definitely be looking at. :) The trick is identifying where exactly that pressure comes from.

I could redo the balance on the food and make this tougher, but I don't know if that alone is enough. I might also add a clock to the Romans and other leaders who will start sending their armies out after a certain point. I don't want things to feel to artificial though.

One other possibility is having your clans themselves serve as a clock of some sort, where they'll grow increasingly demanding over time, and their demands harder to meet. Same as with the other factions though this shouldn't feel too artificial, and something like this would be a pretty big addition to the game.

Anyways, just thinking out loud now. As I said it's very much on my list to take a look at!

- Jon
#2
Medway 29 Jan, 2019 @ 8:46am 
In real life what was the main cause for the demise of these types of barbarians?
#3
Jon Shafer  [developer] 29 Jan, 2019 @ 9:00am 
Someone else came and killed them. :P Think: the Huns. Which would appropriate for a game focused mostly on combat, but AtG is more balanced in terms of military vs economics. So it's a bit tricky getting things to work right. Other than external threats starvation was definitely the next-biggest challenge.

- Jon
#4
geepope 29 Jan, 2019 @ 10:13am 
I think part of the late game issue is that multipliers are just too good. Even setting aside the caravan issue I've seen a single farm get up to ~150 food per turn (which a preserver can almost double if you have salt.)

There's also a problem where as you make progress your output increases in both quantity AND quality, while costs mostly increase in quality OR quantity - but not both. So for example sending a clan off to the legions costs 10 steel weapons and armor, which is extremely trivial to produce once you tech up to that point. The entire tech tree has this "gating" effect where you either have nearly 0 access to a given advanced resource, or you have more of it than you could ever possibly use.
Last edited by geepope; 29 Jan, 2019 @ 10:13am
#5
Medway 29 Jan, 2019 @ 10:18am 
Originally posted by Jon Shafer:
Someone else came and killed them. :P Think: the Huns. Which would appropriate for a game focused mostly on combat, but AtG is more balanced in terms of military vs economics. So it's a bit tricky getting things to work right. Other than external threats starvation was definitely the next-biggest challenge.

- Jon

Ha. I was hoping is was the 'elements' as that would fit more into the direction of this game.

Is there a disease mechanic in the game? Maybe something late game that can wipe out progress to keep it in check (but not too RNG to make it annoying).

I haven't gotten far enough into it yet to really comment on that though.
#6
Harry 29 Jan, 2019 @ 12:49pm 
Yup, barbarians would be more historically accurate, or maybe some civil-war style major clans feud (wink wink).
However, as Jon pointed out, that'd be really be military focused; which is why I suggested economic alternatives (which can exist alongside military threats as designer sees fit), such as Roman tribute demands or caravan usury. An interesting balance could be, for example, pay regular (and ever-growing) tribute to appease powerful neighbors (Romans or otherwise) or risk their wraith in the form of a raiding party. This would allow players to decide between military and economy.
Down that rabbit hole a bit more, clans can also serve as a ticking clock by growing increasingly unhappy with your rule as you continue to bow to the Romans via tribute and demand your "independence".
#7
Harry 29 Jan, 2019 @ 1:02pm 
Originally posted by Jon Shafer:

One other possibility is having your clans themselves serve as a clock of some sort, where they'll grow increasingly demanding over time, and their demands harder to meet. Same as with the other factions though this shouldn't feel too artificial, and something like this would be a pretty big addition to the game.

Anyways, just thinking out loud now. As I said it's very much on my list to take a look at!

- Jon
To borrow from history, that would be growing unrest as clans dislike each other or to have crazy demands overtime. That is pretty accurate and shouldn't feel too artificial. Dislike each other could be in the form of negative morale as kingdom grows (starting to sound like Civ V's global happiness meter). Demands could be LvL 2 Desires (e.g. I want double the Ration! I want a clan kicked out! I want 10% of all trade profits!) that start to show up as clans grow past a certain size (say, family of 10). Or maybe really game-ending demands (I'll call those Lvl 3 Desires) such as I want to be a High Noble and get 5 parchment and 5 armor every turn! I want 5 clans to become my vassels! (Those clans become AI controlled and generate no resources for "you")
Given enough transparency on how close clans are towards becoming too powerful and too demanding, a shrewd player can get a good sense of the ticking clock and know when they have to shoot for victory.
#8
FalconerHG 29 Jan, 2019 @ 1:41pm 
Originally posted by Jon Shafer:
Someone else came and killed them. :P Think: the Huns. Which would appropriate for a game focused mostly on combat, but AtG is more balanced in terms of military vs economics. So it's a bit tricky getting things to work right. Other than external threats starvation was definitely the next-biggest challenge.

- Jon

Hmm, there was more though. :)

Often, "barbarians" were absorbed by/into whatever civilization was gaining traction nearby. Towards the later days of the Roman empire, Christianity was spreading rapidly. When Rome condoned this new religion, it started eating away at Rome's power base.

So how about an additional (hidden) trait: religion.

You could for instance have these:
- Pagan
- Christian
- Roman gods

As the game progresses, the pull that religion has on their clan increases and create more friction:
- Pagans - want nothing to change at all and get upset when they do
- Christians - want to be enlightened, have you build churches and convert others
- Roman gods - want you to fashion your empire after Rome, with places of worship for many gods.

Friction could play out as:
- Clans develop anger towards other groups
- Clans threathen to leave to find a place that would fulfill the wishes
- Downright split if your empire

I'm sure we can come up with a multitude of ideas for the above, as well as ways to mitigate/rescue the situations.

#9
Harry 29 Jan, 2019 @ 2:28pm 
One more thought in the name of Agile development: You don't have to do it right the first time. try low hanging fruits like having Romans ask for $ instead of giving in diplomacy (Looks like the code is already there...) and have demands increase unreasonably overitme. Tie relationship with Romans to something economical (this requires a bit more coding but should be easy enough?) such as clan morale. I bet the community will play and provide feedback! IMO, any change is better than status quo in terms of difficulty curve, so if you agree on the need for time pressure, then get a low hanging fruit out and adjust/make less artificial as more updates/features/dlcs roll out.
#10
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Jon Shafer's At the Gates > General Discussions > Topic Details
Date Posted: 28 Jan, 2019 @ 1:42pm
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