No, your train of thought was right on target: If Eve /hadn't/ eatent the forbbiden fruit, then... Well, the history of humanity would be very, very boring -- with no possibility (much less need) of improving upon the standard of living of humanity (because it is already perfect in all respects, by defination) nor any possibility of conflict (conflict requires that someone else has something that you want and can't have, which contradicts the whole uptopia thing), and so forth everyday would be the same as the previous. Many people (and I suspect almost all atheists) would believe that the whole scenario is invalid: that the Garden of Eden (as I've presented it here) isn't a utopia at all.

Your milage may vary, of course. :)

Originally posted by I Kinda Fail:

Obviously, this contains spoilers...

I know that there's 3-4 endings, but only 1-2 are the good ones.
The "good ones" are where you wake up in the real world - the only difference is whether you bring Milton with you or not. Which doesn't really matter, except in your own headcanon.

The neutral/bad ending is where you become another disciple... which already weren't very useful to me during the game.

The ending I got, which I thought would be a good one, was the worst ending imaginable. I'm so mad.


The entire game had religious allegories. ELOHIM acted like God, and Milton as the Serpent. The overworld was like the Garden of Eden. ELOHIM constantly told us to stay away from the Tower. The Serpent told us to barge right on in. The audio logs of the humans said they wanted the AI to be "better" than humanity, or something like that. So I figured I'd try and do better than humanity.

When Eve tasted the apple, despite God's warnings, mankind learned of sin, and their downfall came about them. So I did what I thought the game wanted me to do. I didn't go in the Tower once. I was not tempted by the Serpent. I persevered and didn't look up spoilers for the endings. I ignored the massive temptation to peek at the Tower. And the ending was just "LOL YOU LOSE, START OVER."

This really makes me mad. :| I did replay for the other endings, but man, I guess my train of thought was just way off.

There isn't a good ending, or a bad ending, etc. It's not about that - you're missing the point a little. This game isn't really about getting to the end and seeing if you got a good ending. It's far more about the journey...

It's all about your beliefs and your thought process. Whether you trust your doubt or whether you push your doubt aside, or if you don't doubt at all. It's about whether you have faith in Elohim or if you decide that faith isn't enough.

The ending is mostly inconsequential, what's far more important is why you made the decisions you did, not the outcome of those decisions.

I dunno, I'd say completing the process and "reviving humanity" is a better ending than "you're a stupid sheep, start over" :S After I got the ending, I realized what they wanted from me, but it simply wasn't how my train of thought went. I said "Oh, by eternal life, he meant just resetting me and doing it all over again..." and realized the game wanted me to rebel, just like humans did, rather than doing "better" than humans, by religious standards.

I disagree with the notion the ending here isn't immensely important -- it is.

OP, it might help to think of Elohim as a person (I think the person of God is explored a little in this game, btw, though I'd like more media with it going deeper), as well as Milton. Elohim is a god in his own right, but you should see little glimpses of humanity coming through as the game progresses on him, until you finally hit that panic room in C1.

At that point, I think it's pretty clear why Elohim forbids you going to the tower, and why he's playing the part in the simulation that he does. It should also, I think, give you better idea to the point where going to the tower, through the doors, or persisting as a messenger, is a choice with far more nuance than "listen to God or the Devil."

Elohim and Milton are desperate people.

Originally posted by tenrec77:

I disagree with the notion the ending here isn't immensely important -- it is.

OP, it might help to think of Elohim as a person (I think the person of God is explored a little in this game, btw, though I'd like more media with it going deeper), as well as Milton. Elohim is a god in his own right, but you should see little glimpses of humanity coming through as the game progresses on him, until you finally hit that panic room in C1.

At that point, I think it's pretty clear why Elohim forbids you going to the tower, and why he's playing the part in the simulation that he does. It should also, I think, give you better idea to the point where going to the tower, through the doors, or persisting as a messenger, is a choice with far more nuance than "listen to God or the Devil."

Elohim and Milton are desperate people.

And I in turn would disagree with the notion that the ending is immensely important, of course.

Originally posted by I Kinda Fail:

Obviously, this contains spoilers...

I know that there's 3-4 endings, but only 1-2 are the good ones.
The "good ones" are where you wake up in the real world - the only difference is whether you bring Milton with you or not. Which doesn't really matter, except in your own headcanon.

The neutral/bad ending is where you become another disciple... which already weren't very useful to me during the game.

The ending I got, which I thought would be a good one, was the worst ending imaginable. I'm so mad.


The entire game had religious allegories. ELOHIM acted like God, and Milton as the Serpent. The overworld was like the Garden of Eden. ELOHIM constantly told us to stay away from the Tower. The Serpent told us to barge right on in. The audio logs of the humans said they wanted the AI to be "better" than humanity, or something like that. So I figured I'd try and do better than humanity.

When Eve tasted the apple, despite God's warnings, mankind learned of sin, and their downfall came about them. So I did what I thought the game wanted me to do. I didn't go in the Tower once. I was not tempted by the Serpent. I persevered and didn't look up spoilers for the endings. I ignored the massive temptation to peek at the Tower. And the ending was just "LOL YOU LOSE, START OVER."

This really makes me mad. :| I did replay for the other endings, but man, I guess my train of thought was just way off.

Just FYI, OP, I had a similar experience with the game the first time I played it. I thought I was going to get a "good" ending by obeying and "going to heaven".

When I played again and got the "disobey" ending where I went up the tower, I felt like there was a subtle (or maybe not-so-subtle) atheistic message to the story, where the main idea seems to be, "the only way for humanity to evolve or improve was to reject God and forge their own destiny". In the game Elohim even says, "you were always meant to disobey me" or something like that.

The religious perspective, I think, would be to trust God because He has your eternal happiness in mind and that a utopia would NOT be boring, as the second poster asserted, since you could not have to worry about dying, or suffering, or pain and would be free to really evolve, unencumbered by those things, exploring and learning all you can about the universe.

Depending on your perspective, I guess, the "heaven" ending that the OP and I were so annoyed with, might really be a good ending, because this game is very focused on puzzle solving and exploring. While the puzzles would be the same as the first time you did them, and that would be boring, you would at least get to explore the game again since there are many Easter eggs to find, and some people are really into that. So people enjoy multiple playthroughs of a game, looking for stuff they might have missed the first time, achievements, etc.

Originally posted by ExpertPlasma:

Originally posted by tenrec77:

I disagree with the notion the ending here isn't immensely important -- it is.

OP, it might help to think of Elohim as a person (I think the person of God is explored a little in this game, btw, though I'd like more media with it going deeper), as well as Milton. Elohim is a god in his own right, but you should see little glimpses of humanity coming through as the game progresses on him, until you finally hit that panic room in C1.

At that point, I think it's pretty clear why Elohim forbids you going to the tower, and why he's playing the part in the simulation that he does. It should also, I think, give you better idea to the point where going to the tower, through the doors, or persisting as a messenger, is a choice with far more nuance than "listen to God or the Devil."

Elohim and Milton are desperate people.

And I in turn would disagree with the notion that the ending is immensely important, of course.

yes

i got that

you already said that

but since you're so insistent on ur platitudes sounding deep and me knowing about this

If you're going to talk about the personal experience being most important, the ending is obviously very important to OP's experience. So why not talk about it with them, even if that's in the context of the journey?

Though I"m not sure how you could say the ending of a story isn't important? The beginning and middle are important, sure, but saying the ending is important isn't saying that they aren't. One of the first things you learn about a story is that it has a beginning, middle, and end, right?

Doesn't the ending show us the consequences of the character's actions? Tie things together thematically (and hell if this game isn't 'rich in that), and provide catharsis (or denial of catharsis if that's your bag)? It's absolutely critical as a part of a whole, whether you feel like it's less important than the middle bits or not, you can't just dissect it out.

Did you not care at all when Elohim and the rest of the child programs /died?/ When Soma took their first steps into the new world? When Milton's arc ended on whatever conclusion you and them came to together? Was that not important, narratively and thematically?

like yeah maybe we need to talk about the events before the ending in order for op and others to be able to contextualize the ending positively, or just maybe with even more depth and understanding than previously before, but /this is still a topic about the ending/

Just out of curiosity, are you religious?

Originally posted by laserchalk:

Just out of curiosity, are you religious?

Who are you asking?

Originally posted by FriendFive:

Just FYI, OP, I had a similar experience with the game the first time I played it. I thought I was going to get a "good" ending by obeying and "going to heaven".

For me I saw the thing as a way to test AI for free will. If you disobeyed then it is a sign that the AI has free will. So to get the good ending you have to play like an AI that is curious and has the ability to disobey orders. There were hints all over the place that you were being tested.

Originally posted by ExpertPlasma:

Originally posted by laserchalk:

Just out of curiosity, are you religious?

Who are you asking?

I was asking OP.

agnostic

Originally posted by I Kinda Fail:

agnostic

Interesting.

Yes, it tis a common mistake to associate the religious overtones of The Talos Principle purely with that of Western Religion, such as the biblical stories that relate to the Garden of Eden. However what's not seen as easily is that Eastern religion is prevalent as well. In Buddhism, there is a belief in reincarnation, which is what the ending you were guided to initially was about. The cycle starts over, and you are a new person, maybe even that of a new generation. The Shepherd has QR codes that speak of ways to "break the cycle" and reach the place that Buddhism calls Nirvana (a sort of Heaven, if you will). Maybe in your next "generation," you'll end up being a lot like Sheep: asking lots of questions about what you're doing (and why) and gleaning answers.

If you haven't already, do try to find the easter egg in C1 (behind The Conservatory) and listen to ELOHIM (which literally means "god" or "gods," lest you forget that ELOHIM was basically designed to be God). You'll see what he's been hiding from you and why. I also recommend reading the documents contained in a terminal behind the C elevator, as they are very insightful as to the nature of HIM. Milton, on the other hand... yes, he's sometimes purported to be a sort of philosophical devil character (by design of course), but really he just wants to get out....

And of course, even if you're agnostic/atheist, I'm sure you'll find meaning all of your own....

mad coz bad

The ending in which you go through the gates relates to one of the game's central themes of curiosity. If you look at the text it says that you have failed your independence test, just like the simulations before you. Without passing that test, the AI is still just a robot as it does not share all of humanity's characteristics. The Genesis story teaches us about how curiosity is a truly human characteristic and while it could lead to bad things, it can also lead to wonderful things as well. If you think about it, if Adam and Eve never sinned, then we would be living in a world that's very boring as there would be no curiosity at all. It's kind of a weird concept to grasp but it seems as if God's plan in Genesis was based around sin.