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"Rivals 2 switching to 3D is a negative because Workshop will be harder" should never be a point against it, and wanting the last addition to the first game to be added immediately to the second when it hasn't even gotten to stand on its own yet baffles me
But in trying to be more like Melee, it looses some of its appeal. Since if someone wants to play Melee, they’ll probably just stick to Melee to begin with.
But that is a risk they knew about.
3D VS Pixel Art is more cause 3D models are more effective in attracting an outside audience. That’s just how it is most of the time. Even if I do agree that the pixel art of 1 is a lot more appealing, as the 3D is good but it’s not going to compete with higher budget models (like in Smash).
If the switch to a different technique for doing something puts down a major part of the game's identity, then yes, it is a negative change. It docks a point. Because don't forget, we're looking at this as a sequel. You must consider the previous game and what it had. A sequel should NEVER downgrade, except under very specific circumstances, such as cutting a roster to rework and make each character more unique. (Do it, Smash.)
This is what makes removing the workshop a bad blow to the second game. The people who bought the first game for the workshop have an unwillingness to move to the second, and sales will not be as good as the first, not to mention all the different factors.
Plus, just because someone decided to cave and purchase the game because of the workshop doesn't mean they cannot appreciate the base game. Like I said, it's just another selling point.
I mostly agree here - 95%. The game is bland relative to it's predecessor. It stands as a fine game on it's own, but it removed a lot of identity.
Yes, I do expect the last addition of the first game, which was a major selling point, to be in the second. That's a bad thing for me to expect that?
it'd be like saying I love Minecraft, would highly recommend, then I send 65 mods that change how it functions
there's a reason the fanbase split, not everyone likes the mods and want to talk about base Rivals without someone bringing up how cool Ronald is
again, workshop was the last thing added to 1, it was easy to drop the tools and leave to focus on 2 considering it was already being developed
you're asking for the feature added to say "we're completely done" to come back to the sequel when it hasn't even been out for a full year yet and they haven't done everything they've wanted to do
it hasn't stood on its own because people are trying to rush to its end wanting the last thing added to the last game
"it's a core part of its identity"
the people that were actually around before workshop, including me, didn't think workshop would even exist until it was actually announced, now it's all it gets associated with because it blew up but wouldn't have if it didn't have the unacknowledged 4 year foundation to build on top of
DLC and mods really aren't too different. They're both extensions to a preexisting game intended to improve and expand existing gameplay. If RoA's "mods" were 3rd party injections and such, the sequel being less moddable wouldn't dock any points. But it's native. It's intended. And now the feature is gone. In the SEQUEL. Point docked.
I know FIRSTHAND about fandom splits. Look at my pfp. Sonic fan. The eternal battle of Boost vs. Spindash is still going on to a degree (Spindash stan here) It's frustrating, but what're you gonna do 'bout it? Not let people enjoy the games and talk about them because YOU don't like it? That's kinda selfish, dude.
Also, how does the workshop being the last thing added to a game make it not matter? Does Minecraft's latest update just not matter to you as well?
And again, you're excusing the unfinished sequel. This is a major problem with games today, each and every one of them comes out before they're actually done, which is extra inexcusable for sequels! The last thing in a game should be added BEFORE it drops, besides public betas! But don't pull a Multiversus.
"the people that were actually around before workshop, including me, didn't think workshop would even exist until it was actually announced, now it's all it gets associated with because it blew up but wouldn't have if it didn't have the unacknowledged 4 year foundation to build on top of"
... and?
Let's imagine we have a game. It releases. It has a little cult following. Then, it adds a big feature, like, idk, a battle royale. A whole new flood of people come to that game. Then, a sequel releases, and the battle royale is gone. You've just alienated a whole fraction of the community. Not good. Sales go down. Smaller player-base. Sequel's not even finished. See the issue here?
yeah I totally said that and you aren't boxing an argument I didn't make
is this your arguing style
there's a difference between a game repeatedly being updated and a new installment
Rivals 1 released in 2017 with only 8 characters, with Ori, Shovel Knight, and the other 4 getting added as years went on, then we got Tether, then Workshop, then DE
does that mean Rivals 1 was unfinished on release?
appealing to people that prioritize changing your game over playing it isn't the move considering there are people more committed to throwing out 20 character concepts in threads over actually putting in the work into making a character themselves
if Workshop got added absolutely right now, we'd experience what Fraymakers did
- mods can't decide on an artstyle
- base cast being unfinished gives little on what a mod should have mechanic or balance wise
- game still being updated means mechanics and balance are still constantly changing, which makes mods either weak or too strong depending on what happens
- the modding tools themselves break because the base game keeps changing, Dan acknowledged this point himself when talking about Workshop in 2 (he also brought up people thinking Workshop is 1's identity despite being added so late)
a small playerbase and a split playerbase end up being the same thing, because I either deal with queueing into no one on base matchmaking, or have to keep requeueing Workshop because people leave when they see I don't have their specific mods installed or they leave after a single match because I picked a base character
You said there were major differences between DLC and mods, which isn't true. They have differences, I'm not denying that, but they're not that different in nature.
Plus, RoA's "mods" are ALSO official and supported. They technically aren't even "mods", moreso add-ons. It's native to the game, and they can be downloaded seamlessly and are playable online. 4 official characters are literally touched-up add-ons!
"yeah I totally said that and you aren't boxing an argument I didn't make"
...fair. That point was hasty.
"is this your arguing style
there's a difference between a game repeatedly being updated and a new installment"
Major selling point of first game not in sequel.
"Rivals 1 released in 2017 with only 8 characters, with Ori, Shovel Knight, and the other 4 getting added as years went on, then we got Tether, then Workshop, then DE
does that mean Rivals 1 was unfinished on release?"
There's a point to be made here. I'd argue, no. We're looking at RoA2 from the point of a sequel, which is missing content from the first game that is clearly planned. The first game released, and released updates afterwards, but the released game was clearly in a finished state. The sequel, however, clearly isn't, made mostly clear by the empty slots in the CSS.
"appealing to people that prioritize changing your game over playing it isn't the move considering there are people more committed to throwing out 20 character concepts in threads over actually putting in the work into making a character themselves
if Workshop got added absolutely right now, we'd experience what Fraymakers did
- mods can't decide on an artstyle
- base cast being unfinished gives little on what a mod should have mechanic or balance wise
- game still being updated means mechanics and balance are still constantly changing, which makes mods either weak or too strong depending on what happens
- the modding tools themselves break because the base game keeps changing, Dan acknowledged this point himself when talking about Workshop in 2 (he also brought up people thinking Workshop is 1's identity despite being added so late)
a small playerbase and a split playerbase end up being the same thing, because I either deal with queueing into no one on base matchmaking, or have to keep requeueing Workshop because people leave when they see I don't have their specific mods installed or they leave after a single match because I picked a base character"
Yeah, this is pretty much true. Still alienating a large portion of the playerbase. Loosing out on sales. Your point over adding a workshop at this very moment shouldn't even be a problem considering games should be finished before they're released.
those empty CSS slots weren't even there until a few updates ago, Rivals 1 did the same thing when the other elemental DLC characters began being added
and by this logic, Smash 4 was unfinished because Mewtwo, Lucas, and Roy were added back in, or its unfinished because we haven't had Subspace since Brawl, or its unfinished because custom moves, stats, Miis, or Smash Run never came back
at the very least you're being told Workshop is returning, because if it wasn't, there'd be complaints, and if it was added now, or before release really, things would become unstable the more they updated it regardless
you'd get more mileage saying the game is unfinished by pointing out how it launched without tutorials and "experimental" still being plastered on the Replay button
That's fine, even if undesirable. Kinda just how modding goes sometimes.
"those empty CSS slots weren't even there until a few updates ago, Rivals 1 did the same thing when the other elemental DLC characters began being added
and by this logic, Smash 4 was unfinished because Mewtwo, Lucas, and Roy were added back in, or its unfinished because we haven't had Subspace since Brawl, or its unfinished because custom moves, stats, Miis, or Smash Run never came back
at the very least you're being told Workshop is returning, because if it wasn't, there'd be complaints, and if it was added now, or before release really, things would become unstable the more they updated it regardless"
"you'd get more mileage saying the game is unfinished by pointing out how it launched without tutorials and "experimental" still being plastered on the Replay button"
This is an odd problem, because it's really contextual and there's always an argument to have whether something is active development or post-development updates. In this scenario it's pretty cut and dry though, the game is blatantly unfinished.
"This is one question that I see brought up a lot and it's a fair point. With many casual features missing, why didn't we launch with an Early Access badge on Steam instead of a full launch?
The short answer is: Money.
The long answer is: Mooooooooonnnnnneeeeeeyyyyy."
regardless I'd still be against Workshop being added to 2 on release or now as Workshop broke 2 updates ago for 1 until it was hotfixed, with people reporting various characters breaking including Ani and Akira, and I bring up these 2 characters specifically because their creators are literally on the Rivals dev team now
not saying you said this or were going to, but a common response is "just code it right the first time" when no one is perfect
if Rivals 1's mods broke for a little while from an update, imagine this even on a finished game that's getting updated weekly
...but then why develop a sequel in the first place? It's not a story-driven game, and it's a PC game with an active modding community. It still just seems like an unnecessary choice, and again not excluding the blandness of the sequel compared to the original.
Imagine if a journalist wrote essays evaluating the quality of N++ & Halo Infinite & they didn't mention the lack of co-op in one & the lack of true Infection or true Firefight in the other & when criticized for it, they claimed it doesn't matter because they personally don't care about those features. You'd never take their words seriously again because they admitted they're willing to lie by omission to make a game seem good to people who won't like it.
Anyone who claims to objectively evaluate ROA2 as a sequel but doesn't mention workshop is an extremely dishonest & pathetic bootlicker, whether they like the game or not.
Rivals 1 with Workshop added to rollback and an upgrade 64-bit instead of 32-bit would be great, but at that point they'd have to rework everything or start from scratch because Gamemaker is Gamemaker
but if there's any consolation, someone already started on Shovel Knight[x.com], and stated that porting Ult characters to 2 would actually be pretty easy[x.com], so while 3D is harder to work with in some ways, there's the fact that 3D models already exist for a decent amount of characters
and if someone asked me if Rivals 1 had worthwhile single player content, I'd still say not really, because what the devs supplied and what the community supplied are still two different things
I could say Workshop is the worst thing ever and cherry pick the worst characters uploaded, or the reverse and choose the best; mods are a variable while the base game is static
And I'd agree with you but what's your point?
"I could say Workshop is the worst thing ever and cherry pick the worst characters uploaded, or the reverse and choose the best"
Yeah, but why would you? What would it have to do with this conversation? A pointless whataboutism is supposed to at least be similar to something that was being discussed.
"mods are a variable while the base game is static."
And that's a big part of the reason why people like the workshop so much. Because you can get/make good mods but you can't get good base game content because it doesn't exist. In either game but especially the sequel.