Originally posted by gerechterzorn:

What the f.... ist this!? I am sovereign of some minor species, suddenly another Empire is the sovereign!? I am not talking about assimilation! Why does every 4X-game have to cheat like that!?

It's not a cheat. If you are only 100+ with a minor faction you have left open the door for a quest assimilation on that minor faction. It's generally common practice to assimilate desired minor civs before anyone else, leaving weaker or less desired ones at full rep to get the bonuses for dust and science. The longer you wait the more likely it will be that someone else swings in to snatch up unclaimed minor races themselves.

Did you read this sentence: "I am not talking about assimilation!"

Originally posted by gerechterzorn:

Did you read this sentence: "I am not talking about assimilation!"

Please don't be an ass.

Since it's just a shift of Suzerain then the major faction in question managed to push higher than your rep with the minor faction or they hacked the system, shifting your own favor toward their own.

The basic gist of things is that when you stop paying attention to something then don't be surprised when it's not yours anymore. You have the same toolset as the AI so put that to use or lower the difficulty so you are not disappointed by your performance.

Originally posted by Selegun:

Originally posted by gerechterzorn:

Did you read this sentence: "I am not talking about assimilation!"

Please don't be an ass.

Since it's just a shift of Suzerain then the major faction in question managed to push higher than your rep with the minor faction or they hacked the system, shifting your own favor toward their own.

The basic gist of things is that when you stop paying attention to something then don't be surprised when it's not yours anymore. You have the same toolset as the AI so put that to use or lower the difficulty so you are not disappointed by your performance.

Arrogant much?

You obviously don't understand the issue, but what am I expecting....

Thus again step by step *sigh*: I have MAXED out some Minor Civ. I am it's souzerain, or what it is called. I do not want it to join my empire just yet. Some AI-Explorer-Ship manages to cheese itself around my fleets and systems, suddenly appearing in the minor Civs system. The next System of the AI is FAR away, so NO 'hacking' possible, as it takes ridiculously long anyway. Suddenly a few rounds later that very AI is the new Souzerain of the minor Civ. Out of nothing.

For you in easy mode:
I am at MAX with the Minor Civ!
Souzerain switch comes FAST (sometimes 1 round after contact!)
no hacking (too far away for that fast switch)

So: CHEAT!

Originally posted by gerechterzorn:

Originally posted by Selegun:

Please don't be an ass.

Since it's just a shift of Suzerain then the major faction in question managed to push higher than your rep with the minor faction or they hacked the system, shifting your own favor toward their own.

The basic gist of things is that when you stop paying attention to something then don't be surprised when it's not yours anymore. You have the same toolset as the AI so put that to use or lower the difficulty so you are not disappointed by your performance.

Arrogant much?

You obviously don't understand the issue, but what am I expecting....

Thus again step by step *sigh*: I have MAXED out some Minor Civ. I am it's souzerain, or what it is called. I do not want it to join my empire just yet. Some AI-Explorer-Ship manages to cheese itself around my fleets and systems, suddenly appearing in the minor Civs system. The next System of the AI is FAR away, so NO 'hacking' possible, as it takes ridiculously long anyway. Suddenly a few rounds later that very AI is the new Souzerain of the minor Civ. Out of nothing.

For you in easy mode:
I am at MAX with the Minor Civ!
Souzerain switch comes FAST (sometimes 1 round after contact!)
no hacking (too far away for that fast switch)

So: CHEAT!

And without any sort of proof as to your claim I'm left to hazard a guess in the dark while under the polite assumption you know what you are talking about. So with all of the above in mind there are two options for what the AI did, both of them available to you.

Lets pretend hacking is not an option for the time being. The AI seems to have met the minor civ roughly around the same time as you so they can begin building rep along side you. Having noticed you have won Suzerain from them since it triggers lower than 100 rep they have dumped more influence into generating rep. Now their growth is higher than you, but because you have stopped at 100 their own rep will continue growing, making the minor civ favor them over you. Rep has a soft cap of 100, but can be built up to much, much, much higher numbers to add cushion so you are not dethroned.

As for hacking you are not limited to started a hack from your own system. With a backdoor you can start a hack from anywhere, be it a pirate lair, the academy, or even one of your systems if it proves closer. That hack that should have taken 40+ turns is now down to 4-6 with ease when a backdoor is in play, or less if the game has gone on long enough for the AI to research specialized programs like accelerator.

Originally posted by Selegun:

Originally posted by gerechterzorn:

Arrogant much?

You obviously don't understand the issue, but what am I expecting....

Thus again step by step *sigh*: I have MAXED out some Minor Civ. I am it's souzerain, or what it is called. I do not want it to join my empire just yet. Some AI-Explorer-Ship manages to cheese itself around my fleets and systems, suddenly appearing in the minor Civs system. The next System of the AI is FAR away, so NO 'hacking' possible, as it takes ridiculously long anyway. Suddenly a few rounds later that very AI is the new Souzerain of the minor Civ. Out of nothing.

For you in easy mode:
I am at MAX with the Minor Civ!
Souzerain switch comes FAST (sometimes 1 round after contact!)
no hacking (too far away for that fast switch)

So: CHEAT!

And without any sort of proof as to your claim I'm left to hazard a guess in the dark while under the polite assumption you know what you are talking about. So with all of the above in mind there are two options for what the AI did, both of them available to you.

Lets pretend hacking is not an option for the time being. The AI seems to have met the minor civ roughly around the same time as you so they can begin building rep along side you. Having noticed you have won Suzerain from them since it triggers lower than 100 rep they have dumped more influence into generating rep. Now their growth is higher than you, but because you have stopped at 100 their own rep will continue growing, making the minor civ favor them over you. Rep has a soft cap of 100, but can be built up to much, much, much higher numbers to add cushion so you are not dethroned.

As for hacking you are not limited to started a hack from your own system. With a backdoor you can start a hack from anywhere, be it a pirate lair, the academy, or even one of your systems if it proves closer. That hack that should have taken 40+ turns is now down to 4-6 with ease when a backdoor is in play, or less if the game has gone on long enough for the AI to research specialized programs like accelerator.

Interesting. I didn't know that you could go above '100'. If this is true it's just another cheat masked as (crappy) mechanic, as you have no way of seeing this. Call it ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. And NO: the AI met the Minor Civ 100ds of rounds after me. Do you even read what I write?

For the hack: no, not possible. I play without pirates (another crappy mechanic, fortunately you can turn it off...), the academy often is farther away than any of his systems and I have not met him yet. That is the whole point in 'cheesing' around my systems.

In the last case the Minor Civ was directly close to my homesystem. I maxed them out quick but did not care for them to join, their system was crap (as it usually is with minor Civs...) and the Civ itself not relevant reg. it's bonusses. Then I forgot about them. Suddenly there is a Horatio Ship in their system (I play with spiral, 8 arms, their arm is ABOVE mine, the minor civ was BELOW my homesystem. How did he even get there without official contact? But that's secondary...), and IMMEDIATELY after he is Souzerain. This happens ALL THE TIME.

That is the problem.

PS: I play as Imperial. How can any other Civ even have more 'influence'?

If it happens the next time, I will safe a few saves... maybe that helps.

Originally posted by gerechterzorn:

I play as Imperial. How can any other Civ even have more 'influence'?

civilization that upgraded the development of systems through luxury providing an increase in influence. There are unique planets, one of them is Teona, they have a "deposit" of influence.

Originally posted by gerechterzorn:

Interesting. I didn't know that you could go above '100'. If this is true it's just another cheat masked as (crappy) mechanic, as you have no way of seeing this.

Sure, it's a crap mechanic, but indeed you can go over 100 points of good relationship.

For to prevent other factions to take over a minor faction as a souzerain, you could try to boost as much influence into the relationship, "before" it reaches 100.

This way it's going by far over the 100 points for the time the boosts last. Also hacking outcomes and exploring curiosities in the minor civs system boost your relationship with them.

In general I try to assimilate minor factions (usually by paying dust for the assimilation-quest) as soon as possible, for not to run into the situation you describe as "another cheat masked as (crappy) mechanic" - I know, it's annyoing.

But you can do the same, if another faction is the souzerain of a minor faction, as long as you didn't "hit" the 100 points of good relationship. Try to overcome their 100+x relationship as described above. But usually the other faction goes for assimilation asap, in case you try to.

Edit: Ach ja, wenn Du Bock hast, das eine oder andere rundenbasierte 4X-Spiel mit einem anderen "Kunden" gemeinsam zu zocken, kannst Du mir gerne eine Freundschaftsanfrage schicken. Möge die Macht mit Dir sein!

Originally posted by Groo the one:

For to prevent other factions to take over a minor faction as a souzerain, you could try to boost as much influence into the relationship, "before" it reaches 100.

This, I believe, is what the AI actually does, and it does this so reliably that it's got a reputation for stealing Minor Factions out from under players. There aren't many ways to get around it, unfortunately, but assimilating as soon as you possibly can is one, and a massive Influence dump before you reach 100 (at which point, you can't keep raising it with Praise, only Hacking) is another. I've run into this problem, myself, so hopefully some of these tips work out. Good luck!

Yeah, all in all this is a ridiculous ♥♥♥♥♥ of a mechanic. I can't believe that, after all these years, addons, updates, patches this obvious AI-CHEAT, I repeat, CHEAT, is still in the game.

But it is the usual 4X-Dreck. Ridiculous bonusses, and if you play on 'even' level, the AI gets 'mechanics' like this, additionally to all the other crap... e.g. having superb systems all around it while you have a dozen 1-Gasplanet-Systems, spawning DIRECTLY close to the Academy, while you spawn almost in another Galaxy, having the best secondary/tertiary Luxuries while you have the ♥♥♥♥♥ and on and on and on... every 4X game does it the same way. I am so fed up with that...

Maybe we can get a DEV to explain this Minor Civ Stealing mechanic!? How can it be that players still have to GUESS, what is going on there!?

Probably an oversight, AI gets a +1 bonus to relationship per turn, but that doesn't stop after 100. Once they surpass you and both over 100, it's over, no way to take it back.

It get's worse and worse... that is no oversight, it's crappy design, nothing else. How did you find out? Is this moddable?

Originally posted by gerechterzorn:

It get's worse and worse... that is no oversight, it's crappy design, nothing else. How did you find out? Is this moddable?

Not sure, if the following mod is still working, as long as it's 5 years old. Anyway, worth a shot.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2058247838&searchtext=minor+relation

Not really working, it seems....
I don't understand why the Devs implemented a mechanic that the AI can cheat you out of your souzerainstatus but not vice versa...

Originally posted by Groo the one:

Edit: Ach ja, wenn Du Bock hast, das eine oder andere rundenbasierte 4X-Spiel mit einem anderen "Kunden" gemeinsam zu zocken, kannst Du mir gerne eine Freundschaftsanfrage schicken. Möge die Macht mit Dir sein!

Sorry, not interested, no offense meant. Ich spiele nicht gerne multiplayer, zuviele 'Parameter', die mir da nicht passen.... dennoch: an welche Games hättest Du dabei gedacht? Civ6? Hab ich genug von. Civ7? Zockt das tatsächlich noch jemand? Andere? Let me know!

Originally posted by gerechterzorn:

Ich spiele nicht gerne multiplayer, zuviele 'Parameter', die mir da nicht passen....

Mir geht es da eher um das gemeinsame erleben einer coolen Story, also zusammen Spaas zu haben.

Originally posted by gerechterzorn:

dennoch: an welche Games hättest Du dabei gedacht? Civ6? Hab ich genug von. Civ7? Zockt das tatsächlich noch jemand? Andere? Let me know!

Civ 6 - auch mit Mods - ist auch für mich "ausgelutscht". Civ 7 habe ich mir nicht geholt, ich stehe nicht (mehr) darauf, Beta-Tester zu sein. Vom Preis und der DLC-Politik möchte ich garnicht erst reden.

Was hältst Du z.B. von Old World? Finde ich persönlich ziemlich genial und hat ausreichend Alleinstellungsmerkmale, verglichen mit z.B der Civilization-Serie. Und die KI ist fordernd...