Originally posted by kasnavada:

you write lists of weakness that show that enchanter is worse than average.

I write a list of weaknesses because enchanter has a list of weakness.
But so does nearly everyone else. The fact that enchanter has weaknesses doesn't make him below average, it's the fact that enchanter's weaknesses are disproportionately heavy that makes him below average.

Originally posted by kasnavada:

And then you tell for yet another time that it's above average.

look again:

Originally posted by I have no idea what I'm doing.:

While I agree Enchanter is still probably in a relatively weaker position,

I never said Enchanter was good, or even average. I said he's not nearly as bad as you're making him out to be.
You said "Basically, it's just barely possible to play with them" in your opening post.
I said they're very easily playable. They may not have as easy of a time winning compared to Demonologist for instance, but they're certainly capable of it.
You gave a list of ideas on how to fix enchanter.
I said your ideas are bad and gave my own list of ideas on how to fix enchanter.

Originally posted by kasnavada:

About the changes I'd want for the class, I hate to break it to you, but "it was like this before and I don't like change" ain't a reason why what I propose wouldn't work.

At what point was this even mentioned? Change was the best thing to happen to enchanter. It's the reason he's not horrible in CoE4.
If you're talking about how you would have to implement an entirely new resource, that's just completely out of the question for illwinter. Implementing new content is too much work for illwinter's lazy ass and it's not even really doable mod-wise. It has nothing to do with not liking change and everything to do with it being an impractical solution.

Originally posted by kasnavada:

Also "it is a lot of dev work" .... I laughed. Because you've actually seen illwinter code maybe ? Yet it's just a proposal. Given how illwinter works - and I've been following them for a decade now -next to nothing will change in the next 5 years.

If you already knew illwinter is lazy as hell then why did you even attempt to propose something that you knew was never going to happen? Why the hell do you think I even bothered to bring up "a lot of devwork" if it wasn't a valid criticism for an illwinter game? Or are you just self felicitating at the thought of your own fantasies and are eager to get others to stroke your ego as well? I can only imagine that is the case since you deliberately mentioned out how you "laughed" at my supposed naivety then went on to try and assert your seniority by claiming how long you've played illwinter games. Get over yourself and don't be a condescending ass if you wan't to be taken seriously.

Anyone can vomit ideas they'd like to see implemented. At least my suggestions are potentially doable through modding, but yours are completely outlandish or would otherwise break the faction worse than they already are. And if you really have been "following them for a decade now," then you should know full well you can't rely on them to make even the simplest of changes. They've been recycling the same games for years now with only the barest of differences layered on top. If you want to see anything changed you have to do it yourself, but clearly you don't want to do that. Instead you'd rather just complain on internet forums.

Guys, keep the discussion civil and try to avoid personal remarks, please, we'd all be gratefull.

Enchanter is not broken, he is not unplayable. Hell, he isn't the weakest class anymore either. He's gameplay is unique, his troops have very apparent strenghts and weaknesses. He is by no means what I would call top tier class, but he's more on par with the others then ever before.

I played a few games with him in CoE4 and I can't see the problem, you're trying to convince us all, exists. He is much stronger than in CoE3, largely due to the reasons I gave in my last post as well as a lot of the reasons pointed out. Sure, the Enchanter can be screwed over heavy by rng but what other class isn't like that? It is easier for some classes in general due to being reliant on more common resources than others. And guess what? Enchanter is in the very good spot here actually as he relies on gold and iron, the most common resources except for herbs/fungi.

And if someone doesn't like him that much just don't play him, there is 19 others to give a go. Wait till the modding tools come and fix what you don't like about him then. Modding for CoE3 was ridiculously easy and user friendly, I would assume not much is going to change in that regard with CoE4.

The CoE4 Enchanter is fun and interesting to play. It might be the faction that needs the most skill to play really well at higher levels. It is early to judge but the strategic depth comes from the interaction between the way you use the various golems, the necrotods and creatures they enslave.

Some basic creatures like bears work well with Clay golems and are fairly good meatwalls to shield archers that do the damage. The Moose is amusing but can trample targets out of archer range which can be counter productive, they are better used with lots of fast following troops like boars and wolves. Other creatures such as snakes and serpents can climb walls and make storming castles easier than relying on golems or firepower. The giant ants are tremendously good against a lot of opposition and work well with Flesh golems moving at the same speed in battle.

Working out the most effective combinations in different sorts of battlers is going to be extremely interesting.

Also capturing and using exotic creatures is amusing even those with 6 magic resistance can be enslaved using the right techniques and maybe some luck. So far I've gained a Hydra, a Kraken, Lake Troll and a High lord and his 3 Knights. I have enslaved quite a few enemy troops and commanders but not yet a mage.

I played enchanter a bit today, thought I'd add my 2 cents.

Enchanter is easily the most complex class imo. They have to deal with not only the gold and iron cost of rituals, but also the action point cost.
Sure, I could sit on a graveyard merrily spamming flesh golems, but is that really the best use of my time?

What I've gathered is that apprentices are very important.
In fact, my start is impacted a lot by what ritual my apprentice starts with.
I think the ideal one is bows. Golems are great meatshields, so lets let them be a shield for a few dozen ranged attackers. The bows are longbows, as well, and that 6 range is pretty nice.

I also feel that enchanter battle magic works well with having small summons that your apprentice spammed. A stone golem doesn't need +2 strength, but a load of bows recieving that is huge.

Originally posted by Devin:

What I've gathered is that apprentices are very important.
In fact, my start is impacted a lot by what ritual my apprentice starts with.
I think the ideal one is bows. Golems are great meatshields, so lets let them be a shield for a few dozen ranged attackers. The bows are longbows, as well, and that 6 range is pretty nice.

I also feel that enchanter battle magic works well with having small summons that your apprentice spammed. A stone golem doesn't need +2 strength, but a load of bows recieving that is huge.

This is generally my impression with the new enchanter. Animated bows are fantastic and animated swords are pretty good too. I generally cross my fingers and hope one of my starting mages spawn with one of those in their books, but it's not that big of a deal if they don't. If neither do, I'll leave one behind anyways to make gargoyles or hang out until I get enough gold to get one of those two. Getting animated bows early means you can save money on archers later and a handful of swords can usually kill most indies before they get the chance to attack back severely cutting back on battlefield casualties letting you pillage and conquer for longer before having to regroup for reinforcements. Swords are also great for early sieges since they just fly over walls. Don't just throw in a sword or two though, swords work much better in packs. By having whole groups of swords, you can usually butcher the entirety or most of the enemy front line leaving nobody behind to immediately attack back on the next turn thus massively increasing each sword's survivability.

After the early expansion phase, I'll start working my way into wood and clay golems, making necrotods here and there, while saving up enough money to get an enchanter to T3. Once you can get into T3, then you can get the war machine moving. By this time you should either have a bit more than +10 iron/month, or able to get there through trade. Turn maybe two iron mines and any goldstream or gem deposit you can find into golems and stomp your way deep into enemy territory. Once you're there you're free to turn any and every significant resource location into a golem. Its better to tear up his yard completely then to have those sites for a couple of months just to lose them while your back is turned. The worst that can happen is your army gets eradicated, but you already left your scar on his lands destroying a fat chunk of his economy in the process.

As I said in a previous post, I don't bother making stone golems; in my opinion they're not worth the time or the resources. You're actually better off just taking the coal mines for the few turns rather than turning it into a golem out of spite. Since the site isn't that profitable it's less likely the opponent is going to try to take it back immediately anyways. Terracotta soldiers and enlivened statues are also pretty mediocre for their action point cost, but they are free so you might craft them when you have nothing better to do (which is never). Flesh golems are okay as are gargoyles, but I generally prefer the cheaper swords and bows. They may not be as durable or reliable, but when they only cost a pittance they appear to be a better option economically. Animated armor doesn't seem to be even remotely worth the iron cost though.

I got 5 trolls in my army from spamming necrotods.
I just realized how mediocre troll magic resist is.
Guess I know how to counter one faction. :D

My 2 cents, not that anyone will care. I think the Enchanter is a mixed bag, but generally, *clearly* weaker than every other leader I've played thus far.

Most of his rituals are useful only situationally for build up. The fact that he can't repair most of his creations makes him fair extremely poorly on large maps (which is my typical play style). He also doesn't play so well with others (I play co-op MP a lot). He has trouble starting up unless he is very lucky on his ritual rolls. Arguments over comparative cost of his rituals are really quite pointless. There are a few key rituals, imo, that make him viable, and until he gets them, he just has to keep dicing.

My strategy with the Enchanter revolves around Flesh Golems, Iron Grafting and Necrotads. These are all very good, renewable resources, cheapish and effective. The AP cost for conversion is pretty severe, and to be viable, really requires multiple enchanters working in teams. None the less, I've found that if you can get it going with 3-4 enchanters, you can do reasonably well mid-game. This requires a successful startup, however, which is largely luck of placement, map resources, and ritual rolls. Overall, I feel there is a lot of strategic options early game if you get *a little* luck. A wood golem goes a long way early game, for instance.

Late game, however, the enchanter falls down again. None of his tier 3 rituals are worth casting imo. Their only saving "grace" is their ability to basically fight an effective scorched earth strategy. Unfortunately, they typically lose in their first confrontation, at which point they can never recover and it's game over.

The above from personal play of the Enchanter. My friend who loves the Enchanter seems to do worse, consistently, even with extensive backpacking--he never gets his necrotads up in time, and never has any ranged support to speak of, requiring him to always need to fight with allies. The Enchanter really suffers badly from reversal of fortune--once he loses an army (and he has trouble maintaining more than one), he's typically down for a year or more while he rebuilds. Not that it is particularly indicative, but AI Enchanters are a joke. So much so, I wish there was a "Random except for..." option for AI factions.

Ironically, although I haven't played the Necromancer extensively, I feel like the Enchanter is a better Necromancer than the Necromancer 8). Beyond that, however, I feel the Enchanter has a lot of issues. If it were my game to design, I'd give the Enchanter some better high tier options. A better version of the gargoyle (reproducable iron/gold construct, not necessarily flying), and a few more non-destructive options. Build a scout owl mechanized familiar in the temple. Build spirit sight glasses in the library. Build cooler stuff in an academy or the temple district... I love those sorts of details. I agree that building terracotta warriors in the swamp shouldn't explode the swamp. They are already pretty sucky. Getting 1 per turn for tying up an apprentice already seems cost enough. Finally, a tier 2 option on a decent range striker (other than the Necrotad). Perhaps another forest destroying ritual creating a thorns & splinter thrower (or sexier, thorns/vines from jungle, splinters/shards from forest, something better from ancient forest) and/or a ritual that used Dead Forest and Dead Jungles. YMMV. Personally I really like the strategic elements of the Enchanter. He just doesn't measure up to other factions...

What about animated bows and animated ballista? Those make pretty decent ranged support in my experience.

One thing I adore about Enchanter is control over the terrain.
It is empowering knowing you can draw a d-ickbutt on the map at a moment's whim

Originally posted by Aquillion:

What about animated bows and animated ballista? Those make pretty decent ranged support in my experience.

Animated bows love to get killed. But they are certainly decent, especially early game, and one of the best early rituals to luck into. Ballista are generally too slow and inaccurate to rely on in open field battles. I haven't tested with enchanted ballista, but regular ballista cause bugged spacing in your formation, which further causes inefficiency in application of force 8). The Range is nice though. Wish they were designated... Back-... (and such a thing existed 8).

I honestly love enchanter. They're definitely one of the harder classes to master, but the satisfaction of watching your army of iron-grafted flesh golems boosted with resistances up the wazoo smash through line after line of enemy troops is just fantastic.

In my opinion, the enchanter actually has the potential to be an absolute monster late game. No other class in the game is capable of resisting magic as reliably as enchanter and everyone knows that lategame spells are the real business.

Of course, playing a defensive army is not going to be to everyone's taste, and enchanter is unquestionably a defensive style class.

Originally posted by shin.satsuma:

Animated bows love to get killed. But they are certainly decent, especially early game, and one of the best early rituals to luck into. Ballista are generally too slow and inaccurate to rely on in open field battles. I haven't tested with enchanted ballista, but regular ballista cause bugged spacing in your formation, which further causes inefficiency in application of force 8). The Range is nice though. Wish they were designated... Back-... (and such a thing existed 8).

I'm talking about the animated ballisa unique to the Enchanter (added a while back by a patch.) They're not slow unless you mean their firing rate, which, like their accuracy, doesn't really matter (since they're also cheap at just 25 iron each, so you can just compensate by adding more.)

Naturally you also want maxed animated tools at all your major mines to produce the iron you need to crank them out, but once you get going you can produce them in huge numbers.

Obviously they're best attacking or defending fortified locations, but that's where your ability to create portals comes in! Enchanters can link together all the fortified locations in the world, one by one, and use a huge stack of mobile ballistas to either crush anyone who tried to take any one of them (defending your entire portal network in the process), or rush out and crack any fortified location your smaller scouting stacks uncover.

Animated bows love to die, but so what? So do archers, and 10 animated bows, at 10 iron, costs a lot less than 10 archers, while having longer range.

I mean, yes, sure, Enchanters don't have anything quite as good as a Warlock churning out fire giants or the like, but the end-game summoners are supposed to be ridiculous.

Originally posted by mentatzarkon:

In my opinion, the enchanter actually has the potential to be an absolute monster late game. No other class in the game is capable of resisting magic as reliably as enchanter and everyone knows that lategame spells are the real business. .

I think Enchanter has it better than certain other classes (Pale Ones and Druid comes to mind...), but I have to say I disagree with your assertion that they're particularly good late-game. In fact, I'd say they're at their strongest in the mid-game, when you can first get your t3 golems up.

I've done fairly well by using mostly wood and mud golems plus archery units early on, and then transitioning into crystal golems and balistas once I expand. Trouble is, if you run into someone who is using non-elemental magic, your golems are pretty much screwed. They have very mediocre magic resistance for their cost, and with no way to really replace them, they're one successful Decay away from oblivion. (I'm puzzled by what you said regarding how "reliable" their magic resistance is. Did you mean elemental resistance/immunity perhaps?)

Now couple this with Enchanters having absolutely zero direct damage spells, and you run into problems against enemy chaff/mage combos, since your golems aren't able to kill the chaff fast enough for them to reach the mages themselves. Moreover, having too much chaff yourself (like a billion animated bows) will prevent your casters from being able to buff your golems, instead doing useless stuff like buff themselves with +1 armor.

Mages are very powerful in this game, and since you don't have any offensive of them yourself aside from mercenaries, you have very few ways of killing chaff fast enough to leverage your golems' prowess. Necrotods are good, but they don't really do anything against mass chaff.

Of course, Enchanter isn't the only class that has issues with certain counters. (Like Witch, who is powerful, yet pretty much useless against Necromancer.) I'd say they're pretty fun/cool to play otherwise, and I for one actually enjoy how the environment gets affected. (And animated tools make Enchanter an economic powerhouse.) I'd advise everyone to NOT fall into the trap of just golem'ing every mine you see and instead focus on crystal, wood and mud golems, along with necrotods (if you're fortunate and get that early) and animated balistas.

I think it should be mentioned that Enchanters also get a Portal spell at T3, which is pretty amazing. Synergizes well with an army of Apprentices cobbling together an army in your main base. Makes it easier to reinforce your main army. The enemy can use them as well, but they will have a bad time if they try to invade the place you produce a lot of your units.

I would appreciate a ritual to repair golems though. Make it lengthy and perhaps costly, but its exclusion makes no sense. I'd also perhaps lower the time it takes to raise golems from mines, but my biggest issue is the mage/chaff thing I described above, which I'm unfortunately not sure of how would be best dealt with, aside from giving golems more chaff-clearing potential, but I can see that being too OP too. It's hard to say.

Originally posted by Aquillion:

Animated bows love to die, but so what? So do archers, and 10 animated bows, at 10 iron, costs a lot less than 10 archers, while having longer range.

There's something to be said for sturdiness of archers though: If you have to bring a hundred extra bows to just compensate for the attrition losses, your mages will be ALL the way in the back and will never reach any of the front troops aside from army-wide spells. I actually had to deposit many bows in my forts just because they messed with my army's positioning in combat.

That being said, I agree that bows are pretty awesome.

Yup, you can get lots of elemental resistance spells and as long as you have high income and many libraries, you can consistently make a nearly damage immune force. That's what I mean about their late game potential. You're of course right in your other points. The one thing I would add is if you find a T3 library, you can upgrade a golem into a L3 mage, which in conjunction with your ridiculously micro-managed magic immunity stack is pretty awesome. I'm having trouble remembering which spells my golem got, but I seem to recall it did FINALLY get some direct damage spells along the lines of iron spear.

Obviously, none of this matters if your opponent can just smash you to death with meteor storms (or such spell) before you have a chance to fully immunize your troops.

Originally posted by mentatzarkon:

Yup, you can get lots of elemental resistance spells and as long as you have high income and many libraries, you can consistently make a nearly damage immune force. That's what I mean about their late game potential. You're of course right in your other points. The one thing I would add is if you find a T3 library, you can upgrade a golem into a L3 mage, which in conjunction with your ridiculously micro-managed magic immunity stack is pretty awesome. I'm having trouble remembering which spells my golem got, but I seem to recall it did FINALLY get some direct damage spells along the lines of iron spear.

Obviously, none of this matters if your opponent can just smash you to death with meteor storms (or such spell) before you have a chance to fully immunize your troops.

Right. Elemental immunity but not magic resistance, which is a lot harder to come by. I was a bit surprised to find out that the Enchanter don't have access to MR increasing buffs. Would have been very nice to have.

Golem spellcasting seem to be Metal Arcana, which is good, but I'm not sure if it's worth sacrificing a library for a golem that will inevitably die, especially when you do get a very nice surplus of gold which should help in kitting out mages. (But again, only if you actually manage to find libraries. Without them, you're kinda screwed.)

Anyway, Decay absolutely demolishes golems. There is absolutely no way of countering it either, aside from hoping for good MR+ misc items, or indie mages that can cast MR+. Sure, that's also true for most non-regenerating units in the game, but golems are irreplaceable, and always first in line to get hit.