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Simutrans > Bugs/Crashes > Topic Details
Huperspace 17 Oct, 2020 @ 11:30am
[122][default][128,64[scenario][Tutorial] Bugs, issues and feedback
possible issue
false use of signals at Cantebury crossing: (no explanation of signal types at all)
91,19 needs to be 2-block signal/presignal one way in
90,21 needs to be 2-block signal/presignal one way in
90,20 needs to be signal one way out
92,19 is ok
93,21 would need one 2-block signal in too (train depot would be placed one behind).
if you did that than there is no possibility that a train ends in the crossing, which can do a dead end traffic jam (without the ability to delete a train).

Chapter 3 Step K (no explanation of endstations or drive through stations, ring/back-forth lines)
wrong schedule for a back and forth line (as it cleary is):
Cantebury -> Rio -> Westminster -> Lancaster (right for a ring line)
right schedule for a back and forth line would be:
Lancaster -> Cantebury -> Rio (right side) -> Westminster -> Rio (left side) -> Cantebury (wrong for a ring line)
no choose way signal and end of choosing

without a pause option there might be the issue that the vehicle is obsolet in the time the user reaches this point.
Bugs

Chapter 4 Step E 1/4:
placing docks sometimes additions pop up the error of occupied place.
1/4: trying to build a canal from 84,43 to 80,30 end in "Connect the track here ((table: 0x000000001e3ae9a0))" when in Pause mode
2/4: able to build a pax canal station don't result in an error or hint text in mission. (new user wouldn't know wants wrong)
: once i was able to destoy it (using pause mode) and place a goods station, but know i get the error/hint of wrong station (too late)
Chapter 4 Step F: (same)
can build any dock, error/hint window but to late, trying to delete it too. (pause and runing mode)
Chapter 4 Step G:
again wrong schedule (back-forth again, not ring)
Chapter 5 Step C:
can build wrong type of extention building but this time you are able to correct/fix it with removetool
no hint that you wouldn't need a extra mail building if the bus station already had one included
Chapter 6 Step A:
Allowed to build a mail tower instead and missions goes to next step.
Chapter 6 Step C:
copy the bus and starting one by one result in "bus number need to be 2" after the first leaves the depot
Chapter 6 Step D:
making a right schedule (according to the mission windows), coping the bus to 5 and trieing to start them result in false schedule error.
only after converting it to a line it worked (but there was no word of line but schedule (schedule button vs create new line in drop down menu)
Chapter 7 Step A:
1/n
able to build not a person bus station without an error
not allowed to make station public while in pause#
2/n
after creating a line in westminster with bus stops and coping up to 5 buses starting the buses result in "you can only use 5 vehicles"
same with a schedule not part a line. (not skip able, dead end for now)
Chapter 7 Step B-C:
not able to test because of previous step

missing
in tutorial:
accounting (what is what and how to gain/lose money), HQ, fix/variable costs,...
what way to choose (cost, max vehiclespeed, bridge/tunnel or filling)
one/dual rail lines and what to heed, use of one way roads.
Signals and how to use them , Choosing signal and importance of end of choosing signal
Line types (Ring CW/CCW, back-forth, random)
station types (end station, drive throught station)
importance of using lines and naming them
calculation of needed vehicles (distance, average speed, capacity) and what is the just-in-time mode.
difference between vehicle types (speed, cap, frequency, cost, landuse)
Speedbonus or the lack of it.
how to find specific vehicles especialy onces without a line. and how to convert them to a line.
repace vehicle (type, group, line, ...)
how to solve errors (jams, overcrowding,...)
role of puplic player
adding competion/AI players
industries (building, connection, upgrade/expantion)
fusion of stations
hopping (from line to line, good/bad,..)

feedback
on working things:
you need to get rid of the pause button option as it can causes errors.
bad routing/schedules
signal placement
no textual difference between creating a schedule or a line(schedule).
no naming of lines.
no explanation why i have to do this (waiting time,...)
not DAU proof (yet)
thx for creating this scenario as an interactive tutorial @yona-tyt
Last edited by Huperspace; 17 Oct, 2020 @ 12:19pm
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Showing 1-9 of 9 comments
Roboron  [developer] 18 Oct, 2020 @ 3:16pm 
I add more mising things:

Chapter 1: Step D is displayed but it is not coded
Chpater 2: {name} (city name) is not displayed in the summary
Chapter 2: {cbor} variable is not displayed
Chapter 3: When building the railway, you can't see the end point because of the trees. But you have not told the user to enable tree transparency (this should be in Chapter 1, it is the part that is missing)

Bugs:

Chapter 2: Step C: After starting adding stops, a lot of pop-ups appeared non-stop with the text 'D, 1' (number changed when I added more stops)
Chapter 2: Step F: I created a wrong line, I see now a lot of pop-ups with the text (true .. 2 ) .. ?? 3. I think those pop-ups are for debugging only, but you intentionally said in Chapter 1 to enable them. Why?
Chapter 3: Step H: Only slope tools under Landscape are available but I need the others to modify the terrain underground. I can't continue. Critical bug.

Also, I had the very same problem as Huperspace on Chapter 7 and I couldn't finish the scenario...

Feedback:

I think Chapter 7 is really more of the same. I don't think it adds any value...
Some of the concepts could be better explained (why we set a minimum wait time?, for example)
#1
76561198173158729 18 Oct, 2020 @ 5:51pm 
I see there is a lot of fabric to cut here, so I'll start with the bugs.

"Chapter 4 Step E 1/4:
placing docks sometimes additions pop up the error of occupied place.
1/4: trying to build a canal from 84,43 to 80,30 end in "Connect the track here ((table: 0x000000001e3ae9a0))" when in Pause mode
2/4: able to build a pax canal station don't result in an error or hint text in mission. (new user wouldn't know wants wrong)
: once i was able to destoy it (using pause mode) and place a goods station, but know i get the error/hint of wrong station (too late)
Chapter 4 Step F: (same)
can build any dock, error/hint window but to late, trying to delete it too. (pause and runing mode)"

can build wrong type of extention building but this time you are able to correct/fix it with removetool

The problem with the pause button is on the way to be solved, when a tool is used and the game is paused it will show a warning message.

Certainly, this is so because there is no immediate way to differentiate a passenger station from a merchandise or mail station, this is a limitation of the simutrans code I'm afraid.

There is an error that I did not realize, the "remove" tool should be available in case the station is wrong, I will correct this.


again wrong schedule (back-forth again, not ring)

Are you referring to return trips (selecting the same stops in the reverse direction)? I have avoided doing this so as not to extend things too much since the tutorial is a bit long.


no hint that you wouldn't need a extra mail building if the bus station already had one included
Well, just missing some informational text here (I think so).


Allowed to build a mail tower instead and missions goes to next step.
Again, there is no direct way to differentiate between one and the other, however in this case it is not something that can cause a jam.


copy the bus and starting one by one result in "bus number need to be 2" after the first leaves the depot

It seems that I left a fixed numeric value there, I must check.

making a right schedule (according to the mission windows), coping the bus to 5 and trieing to start them result in false schedule error.
only after converting it to a line it worked (but there was no word of line but schedule (schedule button vs create new line in drop down menu)

This I have to review more thoroughly, but it seems as if it only allows to advance with one line.

Chapter 7 Step A:
1/n
able to build not a person bus station without an error
not allowed to make station public while in pause#
2/n
after creating a line in westminster with bus stops and coping up to 5 buses starting the buses result in "you can only use 5 vehicles"
same with a schedule not part a line. (not skip able, dead end for now)
Chapter 7 Step B-C:
not able to test because of previous step
This should be reviewed more thoroughly, I should also mention that this is a supplement chapter, it is not as relevant as the previous ones.


Thank you very much for your help! I will solve the highest priority first.

#2
76561198173158729 18 Oct, 2020 @ 7:30pm 

Upgrade:

making a right schedule (according to the mission windows), coping the bus to 5 and trieing to start them result in false schedule error.
only after converting it to a line it worked (but there was no word of line but schedule (schedule button vs create new line in drop down menu)
This is a problem with the schedule/lines when the vehicles are copied. This has already been resolved in the pak64 version but I need time to port all the changes from pak64 to pak128 (work in progress).


It seems that I left a fixed numeric value there, I must check.
This I couldn't replicate, but I seem to have solved this in pak64 as well.



Then I will leave you the record of changes so far:

General ==================================== Warning message when game is paused (In progress) Tab texts ================================== The message is added: "Advance is not allowed with the game paused." Chapter 3 ================================== Step H ------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------- A clogging that occurred if the tunnel was built in the reverse direction is corrected. Chapter 4 ================================== Step E, F and G -------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- An error has been corrected when eliminating dock that do not accept the load, unnecessary tools have also been removed to avoid confusion. Known Issues ========================= Problems with / schedule lines when copying vehicles (This has already been solved in the pak64 version)
#3
76561198173158729 19 Oct, 2020 @ 1:54am 
Chapter 2: Step C: After starting adding stops, a lot of pop-ups appeared non-stop with the text 'D, 1' (number changed when I added more stops)
Chapter 2: Step F: I created a wrong line, I see now a lot of pop-ups with the text (true .. 2 ) .. ?? 3. I think those pop-ups are for debugging only, but you intentionally said in Chapter 1 to enable them. Why?
Regarding pop-up windows, they are used to show some messages that can be useful, I also use them for testing, but in this case I forgot to remove them (Although I did it in the pak64 version).

Chapter 3: Step H: Only slope tools under Landscape are available but I need the others to modify the terrain underground. I can't continue. Critical bug.
I have tried it and I have no problems building the tunnel, can you send a savegame?.


I think Chapter 7 is really more of the same. I don't think it adds any value...
Some of the concepts could be better explained (why we set a minimum wait time?, for example)

Certainly, at this point the most important things have already been explained, this chapter only complements a little (something like a mini challenge) so I don't give it much relevance.

If some things need to be explained better, although I must say I'm not very good at it, any help is welcome.

#4
Roboron  [developer] 19 Oct, 2020 @ 2:34am 
Originally posted by yona-tyt:
Chapter 3: Step H: Only slope tools under Landscape are available but I need the others to modify the terrain underground. I can't continue. Critical bug.
I have tried it and I have no problems building the tunnel, can you send a savegame?. [/quote]

Of course. here's also a screenshot https://i.imgur.com/hXwcKJd.png

The savegame: https://michan.noho.st/nextcloud/s/YNjEL4GxB5FAJpy
Last edited by Roboron; 19 Oct, 2020 @ 2:34am
#5
Huperspace 19 Oct, 2020 @ 2:35am 
Originally posted by Roboron:
Chapter 3: Step H: Only slope tools under Landscape are available but I need the others to modify the terrain underground. I can't continue. Critical bug.
Of course. here's also a screenshot https://i.imgur.com/hXwcKJd.png
The savegame: https://michan.noho.st/nextcloud/s/YNjEL4GxB5FAJpy
@Roboron you know that you extend the rail one time (in (sliced) underground mode) then use the last of the terrain tool to convert it to downslope (it will vanish in sliced because its one below now)
Last edited by Huperspace; 19 Oct, 2020 @ 2:40am
#6
Roboron  [developer] 19 Oct, 2020 @ 2:41am 
Originally posted by Huperspace:
Originally posted by Roboron:
Chapter 3: Step H: Only slope tools under Landscape are available but I need the others to modify the terrain underground. I can't continue. Critical bug.
Of course. here's also a screenshot https://i.imgur.com/hXwcKJd.png
The savegame: https://michan.noho.st/nextcloud/s/YNjEL4GxB5FAJpy
@Roboron you know that you extend the rail one time (in (sliced) underground mode) then use the last of the terrain tool to convert it to downslope (it will vanish in sliced because its one below now)

I see, that works. It is an error on the translation then, it is referencing a non-existent button... I will have to fix it.
#7
76561198173158729 19 Oct, 2020 @ 6:05am 
in tutorial:
accounting (what is what and how to gain/lose money), HQ, fix/variable costs,...
what way to choose (cost, max vehiclespeed, bridge/tunnel or filling)
one/dual rail lines and what to heed, use of one way roads.
Signals and how to use them , Choosing signal and importance of end of choosing signal
Line types (Ring CW/CCW, back-forth, random)
station types (end station, drive throught station)
importance of using lines and naming them
calculation of needed vehicles (distance, average speed, capacity) and what is the just-in-time mode.
difference between vehicle types (speed, cap, frequency, cost, landuse)
Speedbonus or the lack of it.
how to find specific vehicles especialy onces without a line. and how to convert them to a line.
repace vehicle (type, group, line, ...)
how to solve errors (jams, overcrowding,...)
role of puplic player
adding competion/AI players
industries (building, connection, upgrade/expantion)
fusion of stations
hopping (from line to line, good/bad,..)
Originally there was a chapter that referred to advanced functions of the game, when I resumed the tutorial project I decided not to include that due to the length and length of the scripts, and it would also take me some time and I no longer have as much time as before I am afraid .


on working things:
you need to get rid of the pause button option as it can causes errors.
bad routing/schedules
signal placement
no textual difference between creating a schedule or a line(schedule).
no naming of lines.
no explanation why i have to do this (waiting time,...)
not DAU proof (yet)
thx for creating this scenario as an interactive tutorial @yona-tyt

1- (pause button) The problem with the pause button is ready, but it will be necessary to update the version of ST, the code will be commented and the button inactive until then.

2 - (bad routing/schedules) I do not understand you.

3 - (signal placement) I think you mean add more information about the signals?.

4 - (no textual difference..) More explanatory text.

5 - (no naming of lines.) ??¿¿

6 - (no explanation why i have to do this (waiting time,...)) An explanatory text can be easily added.

7 - (not DAU proof (yet)) I don't understand here either.


Any help with explanatory / informative texts is always welcome, I'm actually not very good at playing ST, there are many functions that I have not even used in a real game, in fact the last time I played a real game was more than 5 years ago years (I think), so any help from an experienced player is always welcome, best regards!



#8
Huperspace 19 Oct, 2020 @ 7:24am 
Originally posted by yona-tyt:
Originally there was a chapter that referred to advanced functions of the game, when I resumed the tutorial project I decided not to include that due to the length and length of the scripts, and it would also take me some time and I no longer have as much time as before I am afraid.
A tutorial should be the one that do things right, or at least everything it shows. that everyone with a question find its answer there.
As the tutorial scenario can be saved and continued, i don't think playtime is a problem.
only when you have to wait lot time until a part is skipped (when looking for a specific part).
I think a speration in different scenarios would be better. Basic, Adv, Expert.
Then you have to get some help or let another one create other parts, when freetime is fading.
Originally posted by yona-tyt:
2 - (bad routing/schedules) I do not understand you.
you skipped important part because of "to complex/time-consuming", but learning the hard way later with Trial-And-Error (TAE) is more time-consuming, than doing it right in the much more forgiving tutorial.
Originally posted by yona-tyt:
3 - (signal placement) I think you mean add more information about the signals?.
Yes, and again do it right even when not needed (2- block signals, choosing signals,,..). #1 post
Originally posted by yona-tyt:
5 - (no naming of lines.) ??¿¿
You didn't force the player to name any line to any naming scheme to differ them and knowing what they are doing by the name. It's important when having 100 of lines. (even on small 64x64 maps)
Originally posted by yona-tyt:
7 - (not DAU proof (yet)) I don't understand here either.
DAU (dumbest assumable user) or LUSER is a term for a ignorant computer user. Doing things they should not, or other may not even thought about, with the result in breaking things.
Thus a DAU proof system is indestructible. Software testers simulate such DAUs to find bugs.
Originally posted by yona-tyt:
Any help with explanatory / informative texts is always welcome, I'm actually not very good at playing ST, there are many functions that I have not even used in a real game, in fact the last time I played a real game was more than 5 years ago years (I think), so any help from an experienced player is always welcome, best regards!
You should play a real game, to know what you are writting about. A tutorial should teach well thought out things and not make starter mistakes (because of time).
Last edited by Huperspace; 19 Oct, 2020 @ 7:24am
#9
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Simutrans > Bugs/Crashes > Topic Details
Date Posted: 17 Oct, 2020 @ 11:30am
Posts: 9

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