The type 7 C/42 was never built. The orders got cancelled in favour of the Type XXI.

The type 7F seems unnecessary as we got milk cows which also carry torpedoes albeit not as many as the type 7F. Then again, the type 7F was a primarily built as torpedo transport. Still don't see the point in adding it.

And the type 7D also is rather pointless as we got only very few mine laying missions.

Rather unnecessary additions that add little to the game.

I concur. Typ VII D and F were quite obscure versions built in tiny numbers and with little to no offensive capability. And the VII C/42 doesn't off much over the C/41 than deeper diving. So I don't see the point.
If anything I would like a Typ XXI for the last 12-15 months of the war even though that wouldn't be realistic but a nice what-if scenario

As was said, they are unnecessary.
Besides, only 6 VII D's and 4 VII F's were ever built and the VII C/42 never.
Maybe, in the far future, we'll get a Type XXI or XXIII expansion, but I highly doubt it.
They were first put to sea in June 1944, so their campaigns would be very short.

Well, give everyone what they like to play but keep in mind that if you want to add the minelayers:

1. The normal Typ VIIc can already lay mines, just not as many. So those boats offer not much more in reality (that's why they built so few) and basically nothing in the game - as within the game it makes really no difference if you lay 6 or 60 mines in an empty area. You will not be there to see the carnage anyway.

2. The minelayers also had a completely different middle section so you would have to model a complete new 3d boat inside and outside. It would be almost as much work as building a type IX and type XXI. But in this case, to have a boat with very limited gameplay capabilities. I rather see work spent on projects that give players more options and variety for long time motivation. Not less options for 1 hour of curiosity and afterwards, you never touch that thing again. Same goes for the transport boats. Who wants to be a submarine merchant? I guess very few players.

3. There are other options wich would offer more for basically the same or even less workload. I would f.e. rather see "Flakfalle" boats with a lot of AA guns added to them. They were a complete failure, but I think it would be fun to try them out and at least, the inside is the same, you just have to add a huge new tower and change speed, dive time etc. a bit. Here is a picture btw:

https://community.revell.de/download/file.php?id=69275&sid=fcd4aaa4fa287272685ede2ca896ae84

4. In the long run, I would really like to see Italian/Romanian submarines. I never played them in any subsim. Same goes - if you want to add the other faction - for British boats. Of course those would require a loooot of work for less cloud as everybody and their cousin want to play German or maybe (just maybe) sometimes US submarines. But I'd rather see something I never saw before. But that's me. I would pay for it. But maybe not as much as 100x more people who rather play 10 German boats and their subvariants than 4 German boats, 1 Italian boat und 2 British boats.

Originally posted by GroeFaZke:

Same goes for the transport boats. Who wants to be a submarine merchant? I guess very few players.

Yeah, playing with a Type XIV would be utterly boring.

As far as new boats go, while I would love to have other nation's boats to play with, I think that work is best saved for the next game, which could then implement the US and maybe Japanese boats and shift its focus on the Pacific. Silent Hunter 4 did that as well, in between their German boat focused titles.

I guess one of the important reasons why noone has made a game about Italian or Japanese subs is that there aren't any real ones left. So modelling the interior has to be done from the few interior photographs and possibly old blueprints if they are publically available.
Also British and Italian submarine warfare in WW2 is a relatively obscure topic. Certainly not remotely as well known and written about as the German and American sub campaigns. So I don't expect anything to come from that. In any case Italian subs weren't that much different to German ones, so I don't really see the value of adding them.
While the Japanese submarine campaign was pretty much a failure, with their doctrine of attacking mainly warships being unrealistic, their variety of submarine designs - and the sheer madness of some of them - would of course be very interesting. But I guess it's not easy to recreate those boats to any level of detail similar to the Typ II, VII, IX and XXI which all still are in existence in one preserved specimen.

Word!

I'd be much more interested in American subs in the Pacific than all the others.

The British campaign in the Mediterranean Sea was a mirror of the German campaign in the Atlantic. Keeping supplies and troops from reaching North Africa. Operations out of Malta would add a measure of excitement due to constant air attacks and critical supply shortages. It wasn't uncommon for boats to be taken out of service to strip parts out to keep others going. Even then, many British subs had to set sail with some components missing because none were available. The HMS Upholder was one of the most successful British boats operating in the Mediterranean.

Italian boats would be an interesting factor since at the start of the war, they actually had more boats in the Atlantic than the Germans had. While there was a large variety, they were generally inferior to their German counterparts.

Originally posted by Mr.Woof:

In any case Italian subs weren't that much different to German ones, so I don't really see the value of adding them.

They were quite different, 6 or 8 torpedo tubes, slow dive times, sluggish handling.
They were build for a similar doctrin like Japan had, scouting in fleet operations and hunting war ships. There wasnt really a point in commerce raiding for Italy, France and UK could supply their colonies in Africa without even going through the mediterrane.

Originally posted by wolf310ii:

Originally posted by Mr.Woof:

In any case Italian subs weren't that much different to German ones, so I don't really see the value of adding them.

They were quite different, 6 or 8 torpedo tubes, slow dive times, sluggish handling.
They were build for a similar doctrin like Japan had, scouting in fleet operations and hunting war ships. There wasnt really a point in commerce raiding for Italy, France and UK could supply their colonies in Africa without even going through the mediterrane.

So what you are saying in essence they were mostly worse than German uboats. Apart from several classes being slightly larger than the Typ IX C and many having two torpedo tubes more, I don't see that much of a difference in gameplay.

Especially compared to the larger American Gato, Baleo and Tench class subs which had refridgeration, air conditioning, radar on the periscope, radar ranging for torpedo solutions, active sonar ranging and other really interesting innovations, the many many Italian classes in my view wouldn't ADD ANYTHING to gameplay, so they aren't really much different in my book. If they even have worse handling and diving characteristics that would make them even less interesting.

And you are right of course: the British COULD go around Africa instead of through the med, but it took longer, and they still controlled the Suez canal back then and used it extensively to supply the war effort in Northern Africa and later Italian campaigns with Malta being the hub. So to say commerce raiding wasn't a thing in the med is not quite sustainable. It might not have been on the Italian's radar when developing their submarines, but that was the whole reasons why the Germans diverted uboats to the Mediterranean.

Originally posted by Mr.Woof:

Originally posted by wolf310ii:

They were quite different, 6 or 8 torpedo tubes, slow dive times, sluggish handling.
They were build for a similar doctrin like Japan had, scouting in fleet operations and hunting war ships. There wasnt really a point in commerce raiding for Italy, France and UK could supply their colonies in Africa without even going through the mediterrane.

So what you are saying in essence they were mostly worse than German uboats. Apart from several classes being slightly larger than the Typ IX C and many having two torpedo tubes more, I don't see that much of a difference in gameplay.

Especially compared to the larger American Gato, Baleo and Tench class subs which had refridgeration, air conditioning, radar on the periscope, radar ranging for torpedo solutions, active sonar ranging and other really interesting innovations, the many many Italian classes in my view wouldn't ADD ANYTHING to gameplay,

Wow. You say a literally completely different boat (different engines, completely different performance, dive times, AA Equipment, sonar and radar warning equipment, torpedoes, aiming devices etc etc.) in a completely different campaign setting would not "ADD ANYTHING" to the gameplay.

But then you say a boat you like because it is bigger, has an ice cream fridge and some radar/sonar range finders would offer a lot, because it is ... I don't know, American?

Well, according to your initial logic: A boat that's just a bit bigger and has equipment, the Germans also had, like a fridge, sonar and radar range finding, would not offer ANYTHING new.... one could say.
I would not say that. I would like to see the big clunky american comfort boats that operated pretty well because almost nobody came to look for them and I would like to play them. But I did that often times in other games. I'd rather see something, I did not see dozen times before. So my vote goes to the Italians/British/Romanians first.Japanese boats would be interesting as well, even though as with most japanese ww2 tech, it might be very hard to find a lot of good sources. And I am not watching anime. But I guess a Japanese DLC would sell better, because other people do. So go for it.

And I might add: I think the Typ II is a lot worse than the Type VII. It has less tubes, is slower and has a smaller fridge than the Type VII. But it ads a to the gameplay and I hear that a lot of people play thos Einbäume for more than just a few hours.

But then again. I see your point: Eating ice cream while playing a Balao is more immersive then if you you play a Typ VIIc.

Originally posted by Mr.Woof:

So to say commerce raiding wasn't a thing in the med is not quite sustainable.

I didnt say it wasnt a thing, i said there was no point for Italy in doing it

Originally posted by BombingFritz:

Wow. You say a literally completely different boat (different engines, completely different performance, dive times, AA Equipment, sonar and radar warning equipment, torpedoes, aiming devices etc etc.) in a completely different campaign setting would not "ADD ANYTHING" to the gameplay.

But then you say a boat you like because it is bigger, has an ice cream fridge and some radar/sonar range finders would offer a lot, because it is ... I don't know, American?

Well, according to your initial logic: A boat that's just a bit bigger and has equipment, the Germans also had, like a fridge, sonar and radar range finding, would not offer ANYTHING new.... one could say.
I would not say that. I would like to see the big clunky american comfort boats that operated pretty well because almost nobody came to look for them and I would like to play them. But I did that often times in other games. I'd rather see something, I did not see dozen times before. So my vote goes to the Italians/British/Romanians first.Japanese boats would be interesting as well, even though as with most japanese ww2 tech, it might be very hard to find a lot of good sources. And I am not watching anime. But I guess a Japanese DLC would sell better, because other people do. So go for it.

And I might add: I think the Typ II is a lot worse than the Type VII. It has less tubes, is slower and has a smaller fridge than the Type VII. But it ads a to the gameplay and I hear that a lot of people play thos Einbäume for more than just a few hours.

But then again. I see your point: Eating ice cream while playing a Balao is more immersive then if you you play a Typ VIIc.

You really got some mileage out of that refridgerator example. 😂 But to make that clearer: like the air conditioning, it was meant as an example of having different new aspects to crew management. Better refridgeration and air conditioning means better crew comforts and thus potentially better performance, less fatigue, better discipline etc. I'm reasonably sure there is at least some potential in that even though I personally don't really care about crew management.

Otherwise I guess you largely missed my point, and in a way you actually made my point: apart from the 2 extra torpedo tubes I don't see any real differences between most Italian boats to the upcoming German Typ IX. A different radar detector wouldn't do anything really different in terms of gameplay. Maybe the torpedo computer would be a bit different, I can't say. I don't think I have ever seen one. The fact that the engine may have come from a different manufacturer in my view makes far less of a difference to gameplay than a radar or sonar range finder - that the Germans didn't even have until the Typ XXI - would. But hey: to each his own.
Fact is: performance (speeds, range, etc.) between many Italian classes and the Typ IX is comparable so I don't think playing those boats would FEEL much different. And in UBOAT the diving times of the German boats are unrealistically long anyway. So there would mainly be the worst handling to consider and that's something I cannot really coroborate.
Also Italian boats don't really offer a different campaign setting at all, since we already have a Mediterranean campaign. The fact that they were BUILT with a similar objective than Japanese boats, doesn't mean they actually were able to fulfill that objective. In fact Italian submarines sank exactly ZERO captial ships in the med. Also due to the fact that it was extremely difficult to pass through Gibraltar - especially East to West - there were only about 30 Italian subs that operated from Bordeaux in the Atlantic AND they in turn also turned to commerce raiding.
Last not least development of countermeasures, radar and radar detection of Italian boats was behind German efforts, so there'd be no extra value in that either.

I agree by the way that the Typ II is a valuable addition to the game. Not because it is "worse" but because it offers a challenge and it's more nimble under water. Still I won't want to use it after mid 1941. What it also offers is the sense of accomplishment switching from a Typ IIA to a Typ IID and then finally to a Typ VII. It simulates the progression in a career early WW2 commanders experienced and thus adds immersion.

I specifically emphasized the American submarines - not because they are American (in fact that would currently be more of a point against them), but because with their larger size, higher speed, and mostly larger torpedo loadout in combination with their radar and sonar technology they did offer several advantages over the German Typ IX and because of course the setting and background is completely different.

You'd have to rethink some of your tactics for example, since the Americans couldn't dive as deep as German ones. And the afore mentioned far superior radar systems of the Americans which could even be used for getting range data for the torpedo solutions while under water meant, there'd be significant changes in gameplay. Last not least, the Japanese ASW equipment and tactics, as well as their radar technology were years behind the Allies, so in fact being an American sub commander became much easier as the war progressed while being a German (or Japanese or Italian) one became exponentially more difficult. In addition to commerce raiding, American submarines also served as spotters gathering intelligence for upcoming invasions, they engaged in naval battles (which largely didn't even happen in the Atlantic apart from singular evens like the sinking of Bismarck and Graf Spee) they regularly rescued downed pilots and were used for covert operations similar to the agent infiltration missions in UBOAT. All in all a Pacific campaign would be inherently different to an Atlantic campaign.

The Americans also had more of an evolutionary approach with their many sub classes. While the Porpoise-Class was similar in armament and size to a Typ IX, the subsequent larger S-Class(es), T-Class, Gato, Baleo and Tench-Classes were all being developed by simply improving their predecessors while not being inherently different new boats. Dimensions and speeds are virtually identical and the main improvements were in armament and range, and later also dive depth and added technology in general. In fact the differences between a 1939 Tambor and a 1946 Tench-Class are far less than between a Typ IX B and a Typ IX D2. But that's something for a new game, not for UBOAT.

American boats and most of their technological advancements (apart from the fridge and air conditioning) would have been inadequate or even useless or dangerous in the role the Germans used their boats in the Atlantic. Active radar or sonar for a German boat would largely have been like painting a bull's eye onto your hull and then radioing in your position to an Allied Hunter-Killer Group.

My main objection to a Japanese or Italian campaign however is - like I mentioned before - that there are NO boats from that time left to model the game on. There are many preserved American WW2 subs and one of each German main uboat types (Vesikko - the Typ II prototype in Finland, Typ IX C/40 U-505 in Chicago, Typ VII C/41 U-995 in Laboe and Typ XXI U-2540 in Bremerhaven). And there's tons of documentation that survived the war. So it's easy to get access to relevant information and even tour the existing boats.
But there's few photographs from those Italian and Japanese subs and even less of the interiors (due to secrecy during the war). Even performance-wise there is far less known than for German and American boats and with most likely every sailor of that time being dead by now there is far less to go on. So everthing that would be modelled would probably largely be conjecture.
And for me the final nail in the coffin is the fact that the Italians and Japanese had such a large amount of different classes with only a few boats each, that there was no such thing as a main class like in Germany or the USA. Integrating a new submarine is the most difficult and work-intensive addition you can create for UBOAT, so I think it's simply not feasible to do a Japanese or Italian campaign under these circumstances especially if - in my eyes - it would add extremely little to the game after the Typ IX will have arrived. So I hope after the Typ IX we will get a a Typ XXI. Having one of those a little earlier than they were available in reality would really make 1944/1945 a completely different experience.
At least that's my view.

Originally posted by wolf310ii:

Originally posted by Mr.Woof:

So to say commerce raiding wasn't a thing in the med is not quite sustainable.

I didnt say it wasnt a thing, i said there was no point for Italy in doing it

I don't get it. What's the difference? Anyway the Italians actually mostly DID commerce raiding during the war.

Interesting how air conditioning would come up randomly in a thread about the Type VII F? I don't think many people knew about that aspect of this U-boat.