I honestly don't play Disgaea for the story and I don't think any of them have what I would call a good or interesting story. I never can say that a Disgaea game made me feel tension in the plot, and I don't recall a single antagonist that I saw as threatening. I mostly just see the equivalent of memeposting Anime and Saturday Morning Cartoon tropes.

I can see how Adell is one of the most boring main characters in the series, though.

I'm sorta with Paladin in that I play Disgaea mostly for its gameplay rather than the story (though perhaps not as harsh to it...?), but that's not a very good argument. I do think you make some fair arguments, and even agree to some extent, but here are my 2 cents:

(...) [Adell] just keeps getting his ass beat all the time, and that just never really changes. He doesn't really learn anything from his ass beatings. He doesn't really ever grow as a character or just grow in strength to finally overcome his obstacles.

I feel like some of those were to just give the player the perspective of "powerlevels" and whatnot (and to extend gameplay time), reinforcing how powerful Etna, Laharl and the "real overlord" are. I wouldn't say that Adell doesn't grow as a character, I think there was a decent amount of character development for him, he just doesn't change much. I agree that Adell isn't the most... interesting of the bunch (most "flat arc" characters tend to not be, imho), but I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

["Zenon's"] defeat by Fubuki is especially tension breaking because Fubuki is part of this weak-ass snow clan that we don't have nearly enough build up for to really care about but was evidently taken out single-handedly by Rozalin's "dad" 15 years ago. Are you telling me there were no adequate warriors among the snow clan except for Fubuki? Because the way this is set up is that Fubuki is kind of a nobody--it took a demon lord Etna's power to stand toe-to-toe here earlier--but no Fubuki has no indication of being anywhere on par just one shots the dude. If Fubuki can do this in the open why couldn't the snow clan do it 15 years ago?

Well, a certain overlord reincarnated into Veldime/Snow Melody village to escape from violence, so I think it'd make some sense for it to not be very strong military (or at least not overly so). Also, Fubuki (after training for 15 years) attacked "Zenon" while he was still recovering. Maybe "Zenon" underestimated Fubuki since he had a mortal wound, but that's just especulation. I do agree that they could've covered a little more about the Snow Clan (or Veldime in general, really) and the events from 15 years ago; we don't know how strong they or "Zenon" were by then, or what methods the later used to overtake the entire village. I don't think we even know if Snow Melody had demons or humans (or both) as its inhabitants, which might reinforce the disparity in power.

On the other side of this coin is the antagonist: Rozalin's "dad." He, too, kind of suffers because he gets his ass beat all the time. It's hard to feel tension and threat coming from a guy who is constantly getting defeated by everyone except Adell. (...)
What is a missed opportunity is the fact that Rozalin's "dad" is, basically, a complete nobody. (...) He doesn't even have a name, that's how much of a nobody this guy is.

I think that was sorta the point they were trying to make (whether that was a good decision or not, that's another matter). Just a somewhat random dude with a ploy for revenge, only to make the "big reveal" at the end for the "real overlord". Personally, I too was disappointed with the ending and how much of a "nobody" he was; I was never bothered that he was defeated/killed a couple of times before, his ability was interesting enough for me to consider him a "threat" (basically immortal while holding every human in the world hostage). At least storywise.

So for the love story between Adell and Rozalin which is a focal point for the narrative... it's kind of like the writers forgot about that half way through. (...) [Rozalin's] supposed to fall in love with Adell. Does she ever though? Does she or Adell ever really have any moments that lend to it?
I mean, sure, she starts to show concern for Taro and Hanako, fine, but when do Adell or Rozalin ever have a moment themselves?
(...) When Larhal causes some... drama and Adell solves the solution with a slap? Does that scream "romance" to you?

Perhaps no major romantic events, but they do learn of each others' positive aspects along the journey. I don't think it could've been much different given the situation, they both had reasons to dislike/hate each other. Also, possibly just lack of other potential partners, at least for Rozalin. Unless you want to consider it a case of Stockholm syndrome? =p

As for the slap, I don't think that's supposed to be a romantic moment to begin with, just the trope of slapping someone to return them to their senses. Which somehow works.

There's nothing wrong with Disgaea 2's gameplay, I didn't mean to imply that the game wasn't worth playing just because of my dissatisfaction with the game's story. I've just been trying to learn about writing, had my mind on Disgaea lately, remember having a lot of fun with it, remembered I didn't finish 2, and that just kind of sparked the question "Why?"

I guess to be fair I did go in a touched biased. Looking for something to find flaw in because I didn't finish.

I mean, yeah. Maybe I'm just overthinking it.

Originally posted by neemoos:

I feel like some of those were to just give the player the perspective of "powerlevels" and whatnot (and to extend gameplay time), reinforcing how powerful Etna, Laharl and the "real overlord" are. I wouldn't say that Adell doesn't grow as a character, I think there was a decent amount of character development for him, he just doesn't change much. I agree that Adell isn't the most... interesting of the bunch (most "flat arc" characters tend to not be, imho), but I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

And that's totally fair. I mean they frequently do that in something like DBZ where the newest biggest bad is always exponentially more powerful than the last and they show that fact by having someone like Krillian or Piccolo get tossed around until either one of the saiyans comes in to save the day or Goku himself steps in.

I guess Adell can kind of be like a Krillian or Piccolo--it's just that he's one of the main characters. I want him to struggle. I want him to improve. I want him to eventually overcome.

He gets a bit of development. You find out why he doesn't like girls. You find about his parental issues. I mean not every character has to change a lot to be good. I like Goku. Goku has always pretty much just been Goku. But I also like my training montages, lol.

Originally posted by neemoos:

Well, a certain overlord reincarnated into Veldime/Snow Melody village to escape from violence, so I think it'd make some sense for it to not be very strong military (or at least not overly so). Also, Fubuki (after training for 15 years) attacked "Zenon" while he was still recovering. Maybe "Zenon" underestimated Fubuki since he had a mortal wound, but that's just especulation. I do agree that they could've covered a little more about the Snow Clan (or Veldime in general, really) and the events from 15 years ago; we don't know how strong they or "Zenon" were by then, or what methods the later used to overtake the entire village. I don't think we even know if Snow Melody had demons or humans (or both) as its inhabitants, which might reinforce the disparity in power.

It's tough to say. On one hand, you're right. When a certain overlord did reincarnate into the village of Snow Melody it was to escape violence. It's a fair point. At the same time though Snow Melody was home to Yukimaru's and Fubuki's ninja clan which is definitely violent--maybe not malevolently so, but considering how Yukimaru frequently puts a knife to her own throat?

Peace isn't implied.
It's a mixed signal, y'know?

Speaking of ninjas though--that's something I didn't think of. One way they could've pulled it off more... convincingly I guess... is if Fubuki tried assassinating him. Like from behind.

Actually... wait. Snow Melody was a village of demons. I just realized that. Because Hanako and Taro were born as demons but were still technically transformed humans they got affected by "Zenon's" curse. But the curse doesn't effect pure demons. A certain overlord, Fubuki, and Yukimaru are all unaffected by by "Zenon's" curse. I get that a certain character's parents might be an exception... but an entire village of demons on Veldime? Before "Zenon's" arrival? Makes y'wonder what else was going on...

Originally posted by neemoos:

I think that was sorta the point they were trying to make (whether that was a good decision or not, that's another matter). Just a somewhat random dude with a ploy for revenge, only to make the "big reveal" at the end for the "real overlord". Personally, I too was disappointed with the ending and how much of a "nobody" he was; I was never bothered that he was defeated/killed a couple of times before, his ability was interesting enough for me to consider him a "threat" (basically immortal while holding every human in the world hostage). At least storywise.

It's weird for me.
Like growing up and playing some of these games it was less of a "X part of the story is bothering me! So the game is stupid" sort of thing and more of a, "Eh... I'm bored. Let's go play something else." There was only one game's narrative that ever jarred me so bad that it ruined the game to me and that was the big twist in Star Ocean: Till the End of Time. It was a bold move on the game dev's part, I respect it, but oh god do I hate it. My immersion was shattered.

This actual analyzing of what is and what isn't working for me is relatively recent. I mean plenty of people enjoy Disgaea 2 and for good reason. It's a fun game. And at the time I was first playing it there wasn't any one thing about the game that I could put a finger on. I just kind of... stalled out.

This is a "fresh eyes, lets solve this mystery" sort of thing for me right now.

Hindsight being 20/20... I guess I wished they had taken a page out of Voldemort's playbook for his ability. I mean Voldemort is functionally immortal too, but they save the death of his corporeal form for last. It isn't a fair comparison because Deathly Hallows came out a year later, so again, hindsight, but hey I'm just trying to learn.

And maybe that's just my own preference showing.

Originally posted by neemoos:

Perhaps no major romantic events, but they do learn of each others' positive aspects along the journey. I don't think it could've been much different given the situation, they both had reasons to dislike/hate each other. Also, possibly just lack of other potential partners, at least for Rozalin. Unless you want to consider it a case of Stockholm syndrome? =p

As for the slap, I don't think that's supposed to be a romantic moment to begin with, just the trope of slapping someone to return them to their senses. Which somehow works.

Heh!

I guess at the end of the day since love--or rather a kiss--is what saved said day... I just needed a couple extra scenes to sell it for me. Like after you get the bombshell that "Zenon" didn't really want to meet Rozalin and was going to wipe her memories, you have the escape, and then everyone is regrouped at Holt Village. That's where you, IMO, ought to put a scene where Rozalin is having a little crisis of faith because even if she was warming up to Adell and Co. she was still solidly on team "dad" before this and this really hurts that. This is where I'd have Adell come into try and support. Maybe not suavely. He's probably clunky when he tries. It probably ends with Rozalin pushing him away because he's still too "peasant" for her, but at the end you can just kind of tell that he put in some effort toward a more personal relationship and that the effort was appreciated because he did try to be there for her when she needed it sort of deal.

At least that's my gut instinct.
Could be totally the wrong approach.

I guess to me in the absence of the extra steps toward the kiss... the slap just sticks out to me more than if other things sold the relationship to me.


Thanks to both of you btw. Thanks for challenging me on the things I said. Only way I'm ever going to figure this stuff out is if people push back, so thanks again!

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like that was somewhat apologetic, which there's no need to; I'm glad you're open-minded and are able to discuss these things without imposing your own opinions on others. It's completely ok to give your thoughts and address how you feel about the game if you can talk things as peacefully as this. Or maybe that was just me expecting a more negative answer, which I'm more used to. Regardless, thanks as well for sharing your thoughts!

I guess Adell can kind of be like a Krillian or Piccolo--it's just that he's one of the main characters. I want him to struggle. I want him to improve. I want him to eventually overcome.

He gets a bit of development. You find out why he doesn't like girls. You find about his parental issues. I mean not every character has to change a lot to be good. I like Goku. Goku has always pretty much just been Goku. But I also like my training montages, lol.

Huh, I thought it was sorta the opposite. IMO, Adell feels more like Goku (personality-wise), the difference being that he didn't win the "important" battles, which, granted, can feel a little disappointing. Goku is another type of "flat" character, he never changes (for the better or for the worse), which makes him a little less appealing to me personally. But I digress...

(...) Snow Melody was home to Yukimaru's and Fubuki's ninja clan which is definitely violent--maybe not malevolently so, but considering how Yukimaru frequently puts a knife to her own throat?

Peace isn't implied.
It's a mixed signal, y'know?

The "putting a knife in the throat" isn't as much of a sign of violence as it is for "honor", as Yukimaru describes it (similar to seppuku for samurais). But yes, considering it was a clan of ninjas, it's assumed that they had some training in combat/were competent fighters. The problem just lies in "how much"?

Snow Melody was a village of demons. I just realized that. (...)

Wait, really? As in, mentioned/implied in-game? I don't really remember. I always just assumed that Yukimaru and Fubuki were transformed to demons at some point, like most of Veldime (or at least Holt Village's residents, not like we know any other places).

I guess at the end of the day since love--or rather a kiss--is what saved said day... I just needed a couple extra scenes to sell it for me. (...)
At least that's my gut instinct.
Could be totally the wrong approach.

That's completely fine, I think we all have these moments of "I wish they would've handled that scene this way...". To some extent, it shows how much we like/care for the game and crave for more. I myself have plenty of "fanon" versions of what happened during/in-between certain scenes or after the ending (in part to accomodate the "dlc" stuff and extra scenes from other disgaea games), no need to just accept what's canonical and leave it at that.

Originally posted by neemoos:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like that was somewhat apologetic, which there's no need to; I'm glad you're open-minded and are able to discuss these things without imposing your own opinions on others. It's completely ok to give your thoughts and address how you feel about the game if you can talk things as peacefully as this. Or maybe that was just me expecting a more negative answer, which I'm more used to. Regardless, thanks as well for sharing your thoughts!

Thanks, you too!
Ultimately I hope to be able to write stories other people enjoy and I just thought maybe this would be the place to put these ideas. I know the PC port of the game is relatively recent, but the game itself is pretty old so I kind of expected that I wouldn't get any replies.

I'm pleased as punch someone decided to pay my musings any heed!
So again, thanks!

Originally posted by neemoos:

Originally posted by Crusher Von Splattenheim:

I guess Adell can kind of be like a Krillian or Piccolo--it's just that he's one of the main characters. I want him to struggle. I want him to improve. I want him to eventually overcome.

He gets a bit of development. You find out why he doesn't like girls. You find about his parental issues. I mean not every character has to change a lot to be good. I like Goku. Goku has always pretty much just been Goku. But I also like my training montages, lol.

Huh, I thought it was sorta the opposite. IMO, Adell feels more like Goku (personality-wise), the difference being that he didn't win the "important" battles, which, granted, can feel a little disappointing. Goku is another type of "flat" character, he never changes (for the better or for the worse), which makes him a little less appealing to me personally. But I digress...

You're exactly right with your assessment. Personality-wise I do get a more "goku"-like vibe off of Adell. But yeah, the important battles he kind of fumbles on.

Y'know? Come to think of it? I think the reason why I zeroed in on "goku" specifically is because of the "battle maniac" comments Adell kept getting. He likes fighting, lol.

Originally posted by neemoos:

Originally posted by Crusher Von Splattenheim:

(...) Snow Melody was home to Yukimaru's and Fubuki's ninja clan which is definitely violent--maybe not malevolently so, but considering how Yukimaru frequently puts a knife to her own throat?

Peace isn't implied.
It's a mixed signal, y'know?

The "putting a knife in the throat" isn't as much of a sign of violence as it is for "honor", as Yukimaru describes it (similar to seppuku for samurais). But yes, considering it was a clan of ninjas, it's assumed that they had some training in combat/were competent fighters. The problem just lies in "how much"?

That's fair.

I mean ultimately they just didn't spend that much time on it. I kinda wish Yukimaru was introduced earlier. She was a more interesting character than other members of the roster, IMO, but alas.

Originally posted by neemoos:

Originally posted by Crusher Von Splattenheim:

Snow Melody was a village of demons. I just realized that. (...)

Wait, really? As in, mentioned/implied in-game? I don't really remember. I always just assumed that Yukimaru and Fubuki were transformed to demons at some point, like most of Veldime (or at least Holt Village's residents, not like we know any other places).

Implied!
I'm assuming the reincarnated overlord might be a special exception, so I'm putting them to the side but it would lend credit to what I'm saying if included anyway. The point of evidence is that during the final fight with "Zenon" he keeps absorbing more human essence to sustain himself. Taro and Hanako keep talking about how much pain they're in from the curse's effects. Yukimaru is largely sitting pretty through it all. I remember at least Hanako specifically stating that she was born a demon and yet the curse still effects her. So it would stand to reason that if Yukimaru were a transformed human, even one that was born post-curse, she should also be effected.

Originally posted by neemoos:

Originally posted by Crusher Von Splattenheim:

I guess at the end of the day since love--or rather a kiss--is what saved said day... I just needed a couple extra scenes to sell it for me. (...)
At least that's my gut instinct.
Could be totally the wrong approach.

That's completely fine, I think we all have these moments of "I wish they would've handled that scene this way...". To some extent, it shows how much we like/care for the game and crave for more. I myself have plenty of "fanon" versions of what happened during/in-between certain scenes or after the ending (in part to accomodate the "dlc" stuff and extra scenes from other disgaea games), no need to just accept what's canonical and leave it at that.

Yeah. Yeah.
If we didn't care we wouldn't bother discussing, eh?
And I do know the devs care. After all there's no need to keep up the main character cameos in each game. They put them in just because it's fun and they know we like 'em! :D

I'm assuming the reincarnated overlord might be a special exception, so I'm putting them to the side but it would lend credit to what I'm saying if included anyway. The point of evidence is that during the final fight with "Zenon" he keeps absorbing more human essence to sustain himself. Taro and Hanako keep talking about how much pain they're in from the curse's effects. Yukimaru is largely sitting pretty through it all. I remember at least Hanako specifically stating that she was born a demon and yet the curse still effects her. So it would stand to reason that if Yukimaru were a transformed human, even one that was born post-curse, she should also be effected.

Ah, yes, that makes sense. I just either never noticed/realized it or thought it was just because Haro/Hanako were more vulnerable to it since they're younger (probably the former), but your explanation makes more sense. Good catch!

I always felt 2 had the best story of the ones I played (haven't played 4 or D2) and I really liked the "romance" plot.

As for everyone saving his ass, well yes, he's the driving force and gameplay wise -as strong as anyone else -but not story wise, he's the only human left, he's not a demon, he's a human who punches demons -which always backfires the moment an actually powerful demon appears.

@Sir Fluffykins

*Spoilers*

You kind of put me in a weird spot here.
Because on one hand Disgaea is one of those games where while humans are *expected* to be weak doesn't mean they are. Similarly, just because the expectation is that demons are strong that doesn't mean there aren't demons that are relatively weak. So even if Adell really were human that's no excuse for Adell to get his ass handed to him in a hat throughout the entire story--there's no reason why he couldn't grow in strength anyway.

On the other hand Adell is in truth a pure-blooded demon which is the true reason why he was "immune"/unaffected by the curse. If Etna can start at level 1 in Disgaea: Hour of Darkness and be canonically a Demon Lord in Disgaea 2? There certainly is a narrative pathway there for Adell to grow in power.

Either way? Not really what I was talking about.