Originally posted by Jin:

Situation everyone was confirmed:

Sorc
Merc
Knight
Phys

Merc needed 2 more brilders.
I had Knight and Phys walking bomb, they guard/heal eachother. I tell Merc to Shield the Knight so he gets Brilders from the Phys/Me as I just attack him. Instead, Merc sides with BD and kills me and also loses himself. Is that game-throwing? I say yes because he had a way to win.

Neutral or not, if you have a way to win you should go for that win. He simply threw away his chance to win to kill me. I told him twice how he can win and whispered him as well.

I'd say if he knowingly chose the option that didn't win yes it's gamethrowing.

Though the dev's probably should just issue a warning/inform, as the amount of changes to the merc recently certainly makes the knowingly part a bit more complicated, as it's pretty reasonable that he was unaware that he was throwing away his only chance to win.

8 brilders is too much, I haven't even come close to getting this every time I have been merc.

Originally posted by Sammy West:

too be honest, merc is a neutral class. you can't really throw on it unless all neuts find each other some how. Neutral can mean on somoenes side, evil or bd, or can play both sides, and can even side with him self! Its not just one the other, and you don't have to be that the entire game with a neut. Thats what alot of peoople don't get. With neuts, sides can change, alliances can change, and they aren't bound by the same rules evils and bd are.

I disagree, you should play to win. And if a choice is losing 100% you are throwing imo.

Originally posted by Sammy West:

too be honest, merc is a neutral class. you can't really throw on it unless all neuts find each other some how. Neutral can mean on somoenes side, evil or bd, or can play both sides, and can even side with him self! Its not just one the other, and you don't have to be that the entire game with a neut. Thats what alot of peoople don't get. With neuts, sides can change, alliances can change, and they aren't bound by the same rules evils and bd are.

As a neut you are supposed to do whatever you can to meet your win condition, or you are throwing. You are welcome to take a side, or switch sides as will, so long as you are earnestly trying to meet your win condition.

The very concept of the game and social deduction, is that you are supposed to try to find out people's classes, and that tells you at least what they are trying for, and thus can cut deals or cause a flip because you know what they really want.

A merc is indeed supposed to prioritize getting his required amount of briders over any side winning, as a fool is supposed to prioritize getting executed over any side winning.

A scorned that whispers who to kill to a knight who to kill, is throwing (as he needs executions not night kills), but both trying to get BD executed, or guiding BD and getting evils executed, are completely legitimate options.

You have full freedom to attempt to sway things as you see fit, so long as you are also working towards your win condition. If the win condition doesn't matter to you, then neutrals aren't an added challenge factor to the game, just pure RNG, and you may as well add a mechanic where either prince or mastermind may have a random heart attack on night 4


Being neutral means not being locked into serving the BD or unseen/cult. It does not mean having no objective, and just because you have no defined teammates it isn't "Harmless" to the game not to try for your goal. Knowing these classes and their goals IS a huge part of the strategy of the game. If I correctly determine an alchemists class, that should at the very least tell me that he would rather me execute the MM than him. If I correctly identify a fool, I should know that he would rather me execute him over the MM, and both should be doing whatever means they can to avoid getting executed by prince.

If you can't expect at least the ability to anticipate that much about neutral classes. then just remove neutral classes.

Originally posted by Sammy West:

i disagree with that. A scorned has 2 targets. If he whispers to a knight to kill some target of his that is not throwing. That is attempting to complete his goal. Also to gain said knights trust, if scorned suspects a evil, it could gain the knights trust for completing the goal if needed. It don't always work that way but thats the general logic. If the scorned has completed his objective, then there is nothing holding him to his objective as it is void, and completed. This means he can side with who he wants, or him self.

You are behind the curve mechanically, scorned doesn't have targets anymore. He has a goal of "live to see 4 daytime executions". Which with typical game durration means he more or less needs there to be an execution every other day. (regardless of whether it's BD or cult). Which is a rather difficult goal that's almost certainly doomed by encouraging night kills.