The discoback isn't what I would consider "broken."

Sure, it can do a ton of good damage at one time, but it's a 64 kph mech that has no long range response, needs to chug into range first, and has horrendous hardpoint placement. The overwhelming majority of your damage output is blasting out of your right torso, which enemies will intentionally target. As soon as that's gone, you're dead weight.

Which effectively makes it a catch-22. Either you're doing amazing damage and popping off limbs, which means enemies will focus down you, and your right side, specifically, at which point you'll become useless, OR you show some restraint and spread your lance's damage output around your lancemates, in which case you're not using your massive laserbank to the fullest potential and what's the point?

Like it's not bad and it can be a fearsome force, but it's got a serious Achilles' heel the enemies will take advantage of.

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

The overwhelming majority of your damage output is blasting out of your right torso, which enemies will intentionally target.

Going to assume you're talking about AI here, since human aiming isn't a factor in MW5.

The AI won't target anything intentionally. The H-back's weapon torso tends to get blown off first because it's physically larger than any other part of the mech; it's a matter of the hitbox being larger, nothing more, nothing less. In a normal mech, enemy fire coming at you from the side will hit your arms and block shots that might otherwise hit your side torso. The Hunchback's gun section is so large it can be hit from any firing angle.

The same way a Phoenix Hawk loses its arms before losing anything else. 9 times out of 10, I blow off a PH's arms without even trying. They're so stupidly large relative to the body, you have to try not to hit them.

Same way it's very easy to unintentionally headshot the Cataphract. It has a stupidly large canopy centrally located in the torso. Your aim naturally goes there without even thinking. Orions and Battlemasters are almost as easy to headshot for the same reason, but their canopy hitbox isn't quite as large.

Imagine for a second you're in a Cataphract and the AI fires an SRM6 spread into your CT. Guess what gets splash damaged unintentionally? Your canopy. It's going to take a lot more chip damage than most other mech designs.

Point being: some mechs lose certain components at a much higher rate than other mechs, and it has absolutely nothing to do with what the enemy AI is 'intentionally' aiming for.

Originally posted by Clever Name:

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

The overwhelming majority of your damage output is blasting out of your right torso, which enemies will intentionally target.

Going to assume you're talking about AI here, since human aiming isn't a factor in MW5.

The AI won't target anything intentionally. The H-back's weapon torso tends to get blown off first because it's physically larger than any other part of the mech; it's a matter of the hitbox being larger, nothing more, nothing less. In a normal mech, enemy fire coming at you from the side will hit your arms and block shots that might otherwise hit your side torso. The Hunchback's gun section is so large it can be hit from any firing angle.

The same way a Phoenix Hawk loses its arms before losing anything else. 9 times out of 10, I blow off a PH's arms without even trying. They're so stupidly large relative to the body, you have to try not to hit them.

Same way it's very easy to unintentionally headshot the Cataphract. It has a stupidly large canopy centrally located in the torso. Your aim naturally goes there without even thinking. Orions and Battlemasters are almost as easy to headshot for the same reason, but their canopy hitbox isn't quite as large.

Imagine for a second you're in a Cataphract and the AI fires an SRM6 spread into your CT. Guess what gets splash damaged unintentionally? Your canopy. It's going to take a lot more chip damage than most other mech designs.

Point being: some mechs lose certain components at a much higher rate than other mechs, and it has absolutely nothing to do with what the enemy AI is 'intentionally' aiming for.

Doesn't the AI also naturally target the most dangerous mech in your squad first? Either the most tonne or the one doing the most damage. I played a bunch of missions in the Kintaro while giving my squad much larger mechs and I almost never get targeted until I attack but by the time they attack me I've already shoved 2 26x SRM salvos up their butt and everything minus an assault mech is already dead.

Originally posted by Clever Name:

The AI won't target anything intentionally.

It does. Most people know that the AI will target the 1 or 2 mechs that are dealing the most damage overall, but fewer people know about limb location targeting by enemy AI. They will be more likely to target a specific mech component based on the damage being dealt from that component.

I haven't tested this myself but I've spoken to people who have, using Instant Action. You can take a discoback into a fight and, if you only use one laser in its arm, half the time you will lose that arm first in a fight, and the enemies won't target your torso (intentionally). One guy tested this with the -4P specifically, and said that out of the 10 tests he did, 5 of them included losing the arm first. Zero times out of ten did he lose, or get heavily damaged, the right torso, and he said a couple times it was totally unscathed.

If you play the discoback "normally," that's not going to be the case.

Originally posted by Swaggaccino:

Doesn't the AI also naturally target the most dangerous mech in your squad first? Either the most tonne or the one doing the most damage.

I don't think tonnage has anything to do with it. It's strictly damage based.

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

It does. Most people know that the AI will target the 1 or 2 mechs that are dealing the most damage overall, but fewer people know about limb location targeting by enemy AI. They will be more likely to target a specific mech component based on the damage being dealt from that component.

For the sake of argument, I'll say it's possible (even though nothing in my experience indicates it). But what about mechs that distribute their weapons equally? My Dervish-FR has an SRM6 in one arm, each side torso, and an SRM2 in the other arm. What would the AI target then, if 3 locations are putting out equal damage?

There's not really much in "broken" Mech variants. Otherwise you'd need to throw in every Royal variant in the mix.
There are essentially broken weapons like how the AC/5 makes the AC/10 completely redundant and can be configured to fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Originally posted by Clever Name:

What would the AI target then, if 3 locations are putting out equal damage?

I would assume they just don't. I mean, if I were programming this, and I wanted the AI to be smarter/harder, I would have them focus on important components in this event, but considering how much armor they throw at you I can see why you wouldn't want to.

Assuming this mechanic exists as standard AI behavior, I would guess there's some threshold involved. Like if weapons installed in location X do >50% of all DPS or something, target that location. Again, any thoughts I have on it are pure speculation, I haven't looked at the code or tested myself. (I don't know how obfuscated the source code is or if you can determine this with mod tools available)

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

Originally posted by Clever Name:

What would the AI target then, if 3 locations are putting out equal damage?

I would assume they just don't. I mean, if I were programming this, and I wanted the AI to be smarter/harder, I would have them focus on important components in this event, but considering how much armor they throw at you I can see why you wouldn't want to.

Assuming this mechanic exists as standard AI behavior, I would guess there's some threshold involved. Like if weapons installed in location X do >50% of all DPS or something, target that location. Again, any thoughts I have on it are pure speculation, I haven't looked at the code or tested myself. (I don't know how obfuscated the source code is or if you can determine this with mod tools available)

I just tested my Stalker, here's the results:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZtY28AgbCw

So, I did much more damage than my lance. My arms have more weapons, therefore more DPS, than my torso locations. Yet, my leg and side torso took the most damage.

Originally posted by Strayed:

There's not really much in "broken" Mech variants. Otherwise you'd need to throw in every Royal variant in the mix.
There are essentially broken weapons like how the AC/5 makes the AC/10 completely redundant and can be configured to fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.

I know about the AC5 trick and I went through a bunch of hero builds, Gauss, PPC focused and nothing comes close to this list particularly the KTO-GB SRM build. It kills mechs so quick, I don't think any of my 100 ton builds can do that.

Originally posted by Swaggaccino:

I know about the AC5 trick and I went through a bunch of hero builds, Gauss, PPC focused and nothing comes close to this list particularly the KTO-GB SRM build. It kills mechs so quick, I don't think any of my 100 ton builds can do that.

The Stalker I posted above (quad SRM6-ST+Artemis, quad small pulse lasers) can kill everything very quickly. The SRMs provide the bulk damage, while the lasers provide precision to finish off the CT quickly.

The advantage of the small pulses over medium lasers is the fire rate of 30 RPM.

While the Stalker's low speed means flanking for back shots is not likely, it has enough raw power to blow through any mech's frontal CT in a matter of seconds.

Here's a simplified test. Myself versus a lance of Dragoons. No friendly AI to distract.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGVhGq9UtZ4

There's still no indication the AI targets specific parts of my mech.

Okay, so, I like to beat dead horses. Last test, I promise. I think it's the most 'scientific' one I've made so far, though.

Annihilator with all weapons stripped except for one arm. I picked the Anni for the test because it's huge, I don't move much, and there's pretty much no reason the AI can't target any part of my mech at will. After I take down the first Thunderbolt, it's a 1v3 with the AI shooting at me with zero obstructions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM4hD-hZGsU

The most interesting part to me, is how my rear side torso got hit after I was facing the final 3 enemies. The map border's behind me, so no pot shots from an AC/5 tank. I've often suspected, without having video proof, that rear damage can occur from front hits. Maybe LRMs do this. Otherwise no other weapon should have the angle from the front.

Also, I stripped my rear armor lower than I normally have it when I give Annis to my AI lance. Only about 10 points, while I normally give them 20 because they're stupid and much more likely to expose their backs for long periods of time.

Originally posted by Swaggaccino:

Here's my list. Feel free to comment or post your own.

1. MAD-5D -> 3x PPC in a 75 ton mech that can run 64km/h LOL Stick 2 PPCs to one firegroup and the other PPC to another, or 1 PPC to 3 different fire groups and you can continually fire without ever reaching max heat.
2. KTO-GB -> The ultimate SRM boat. 3x SRM6, 2x SRM4, 2x MP. This thing is broken. Flank and attack from the side/rear at point blank and you'll take most mechs down in 1-2 salvos.

Pointing out a few things:

MAD-5D isn't any more broken than the Awesome-9M. The latter moves just as fast, lacks jets, but can fit a little more armor, sinks, and secondary weaponry than the Marauder.

Basically anything with an XL engine is 'broken' by normal balance standards.

The Kintaro-GB also isn't that great of an SRM boat. The Kintaro-19b (which has an XL) moves at 81 KPH (or 93 with speed upgrade), and can fit 4xSRM6 with Artemis. Meaning it can have almost as much SRM punch as the -GB, but it's much more accurate, and you can move almost 20 KPH faster, which makes flanking a hell of a lot easier.

I own a Kintaro-19b, but I don't use it. I just strip the jets out of a Dervish-7D and have almost the same mech. Slightly inferior in some respects, but slightly superior in others.

D'oh, I forgot about the Archer Agincourt. That's the real meta right there. Basically KTO-GB plus more armor plus more SRM salvos. Same speed. Same cooling (more or less).

Originally posted by Shrinkshooter:

Originally posted by Clever Name:

The AI won't target anything intentionally.

It does. Most people know that the AI will target the 1 or 2 mechs that are dealing the most damage overall, but fewer people know about limb location targeting by enemy AI. They will be more likely to target a specific mech component based on the damage being dealt from that component.

I haven't tested this myself but I've spoken to people who have, using Instant Action. You can take a discoback into a fight and, if you only use one laser in its arm, half the time you will lose that arm first in a fight, and the enemies won't target your torso (intentionally). One guy tested this with the -4P specifically, and said that out of the 10 tests he did, 5 of them included losing the arm first. Zero times out of ten did he lose, or get heavily damaged, the right torso, and he said a couple times it was totally unscathed.

If you play the discoback "normally," that's not going to be the case.

I typically play with friends, and I usually out damage them, and I quickly become the target of the AI. Especially when I use the Atlas that we acquired. It has long range, medium, and close range finishing power. If I don't want to get focused right away, I have to lay off, and since the Atlas is slow, it's very easy for enemy mechs to flank or get behind me when fighting large groups of them. I let the AI or my friends open fire and when things get close I unleash hell on mechs that have been softened up and finish them quickly.

This usually pulls the rest of the enemy mechs attention to me at that point. But by then everything is usually hurt pretty good and they don't get a long time to try and blast me to bits. Even with over 600 armor, getting focused you'll see just how quickly that armor can vaporize and have missing limbs. The AI is pretty good at figuring out where to hit and who to take out first in my experience with it.