Originally posted by The Real Donald J. Trump:

Fuck me.

no. you're an 80 year old white guy, with a saggy belly, and I'm furthermore not gay. I'd happily bang Ivanka tho - SHE'S hot - evenn if she is 40.

Originally posted by The Real Donald J. Trump:

Originally posted by Dude13:

goose


:)

FUCK YOU!!! FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOU! KILL YOURSELF!!!

sure... I was gonna go drink bleach anyway. I found these two threads:
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/groups/steamuniverse/discussions/0/1480982338966401565/
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/groups/steamuniverse/discussions/0/1480982971168510596/

F***ing third wave feminism... *Sighs*

goose


:)

Originally posted by pitzo:

ok

not ok

Originally posted by <Kl0nd1kE> ߷:

Originally posted by Dude13:

cool :) welcome to the debate :)

not gonna edit lol, but I think they meant the feast? :P

lol I know - just messing around xD

besides, we're the only people here smart enough to debate xD ... that was a joke, in case it wasn't obvious

Originally posted by Springfeel:

Originally posted by <Kl0nd1kE> ߷:

ahh, u jelly? ur invited yanno

Oh well in that case I'm on my way

cool :) welcome to the debate :)

Originally posted by Springfeel:

I'm glad these two gentlesirs worked out their debate. Maybe they could combine their good boy points for a ten die feast together.

I already have 20 die. I don't need more. Also, why the hell would I want to eat dice? Also, what "Good boy points"? And who/what awarded those?

LOL!! I just realized I hadn't even looked at yout profle until now xD

Also, just realized you're from great Britiian xD - though you were also in the US lol

either way, thanks again for the debate m8 :)

Originally posted by <Kl0nd1kE> ߷:

Originally posted by Dude13:

I'm not denying that the US F***ed the place up, I just wanted to point out that the entirety of the blame cannot be put on us. There have been wars in the middle east (Or in Islamic areas in general) since before America was invented/founded - all we did was give more modern weapons and some more training. I'm not sure what that video was supposed to illustrate however, so I may be missing your point. The world - and I - are well aware that the US has interfered in the middle east since oil was discovered there.

As to the "get their point across" thing, no, I meant what I said. They might excuse it by saying they do it to please thir god, but in effect, what their god tells them to do is to take over other cultures - with force, if neccessary - and convert the population to islam - also with force, if neccessary. Oh yeah, and they're allowed to rape the local population... and enslave all the non-islamics and/or levy a Jizya on them - and the proper amount for a Jizya is not specified, so it could be whatever they want it to be.

To the immigrants thing, 1) I don't think I'm an xenophobe - or even right wing (I consider myself a moderate (aka 'a sane person')) - I might be considered a religiophope, but thet would mean I haven't studied reliogions enough to understand them and their problems. 2) As to oppressing black people, yes, this happened - in the past. What the BLM thing is tho, is an entirely illogical protest that gets alot of immoral and unethical media attention. If you look at the death statistics of people shot by police officers, you will find that the numbers are just about equal across the board when compared to the percentage of each race that is arrested for a crime. Furthermore, looking at crime statistics in the US, the highest numbers are actually black on black crime... 3) ICE deals with ILLEGAL immigrants - people who are NOT LEGALLY ALLOWED to be in this country. There IS a legal system to get into this country, and while yes, I'll agree it's broken, that does not give people the right to enter this country illegaly... I wounldn't care if the US didn't have so many socialist govenment programs (Which I do think we need, unchecked capitalism (Britian 1900s) is a HORRIBLE idea), but since we have those programs, I don't want to have to pay my money for someone who isn't supposed to be in this country. 3) I'm against giving minorities aid... not because I'm racist, but because that would be. I'm for giving ANYBODY who needs it aid - not just poor black people or poor Islamic people, but ALL poor people. Also, Ihave no problem with everyone being equal, and I'm not afraid to be "culled" as you put it. I'll sink or swim based on my own hard work... And while I do think America needs some changes to be better, I don't think those changes agree with or conform to the Islamic faith. I'm an egalitarian, while the religion of Islam is VERY male first (See revenge rapes and the punishments laid out in the Koran for disobedient daughters/wives).

So, on to your next point, which was the one about if stonings and rape, etc. would be legalized... Yes. We are a republic, and if enough people are for - or at least indifferent to Sharia law being adopted in this country, representatives for Sharia law (Under which stonings, revenge rapes, child abuse, etc. is legal) will be elected - and then institute Sharia law, making those things legal. Also, "Demonizing" Muslims? hahahaha Are you kidding me? The only media coverage muslims and islam gets is positive these days - unless it's related to Donald Trumps statements, but that's coverage of Donald Trump, not muslims. If anything, the Irish and Italians had it harder, as there was social stigmas against them (And they did get plenty of media coverage too - in the crime section of newspapers, regardless if it was warranted or not (Back then alot of criminals WERE of Irish or Italian decent as they came here with nothing, and resorted to crime to get something, however, the stigma was that ALL of them were dishonest, which simply wasn't true)). These days, there is a social stigma against (And you'll be demonized in the media for) disliking, or even disagreeing with, muslims.

As to using money to forse other business away, yeah, I suppose it is, but again, see what I said about assimilation. There is a difference between essentially moving your village/city to a different country, then taking that place over, and forcing competing bussinesses to close because your product is better/cheaper/etc. As to being a Trump voter, I'm not quite old enough to vote - yet :) . I probably would have voted for Trump tho - the reasons will probably surprise you tho. I don't particularly care what someone SAYS... I care about what they DO. Hillary Clinton has shown incompetence, neglegence, and a willingness to kill people to further her political carier. Also, alot of her poilicies are bats*** insane - with no money to pay for them... good Ideas, but no money to do them. Trump on the other hand, has shown that he can be successful - while still being within the law. Yes, he gamed the system a few times, but so would I if I knew how lol. Also, while hillary is ultra PC, Trump is about as anti-PC as possible - and while I don't agree with some of the stuff he says (Again, I only really care about what you do anyway), I'm VERY anti-PC. Shaming people into silence on a topic is how things like the holocaust start. No, I don't think it will come to that but, given the current PC trends, you never know...

I'm starting to like you too :) You have opinions and can rationally argue for them, without immediatly blowing up :)

Also, I'm not saying that the US should be hostile to immigration - quite the opposite in fact, I think immigration is a wonderful thing - it brings new ideas, people, money, etc., etc., etc.

And I'm sorry to hear that people are protesting your being here... I think it's wonderful that you're here. I have no problems with new people, or people from other cultures, I just don't appreciate them not assimilating, or coming in illegally. I suppose my main point is that if they're here, in the US, of they're own free will (Even if they are from a war zone - there are hundereds of other countries to go to), they can't expect to continue living in their culture here. We have our own culture, and they need to assimilate into it. Perhaps we could/should change our culture, idk, but I don't appreciate them doing it by taking over our media (No, I'm not crying "Fake news" right now, tho I do think that none of the mainstream outlets are that reliabe anymore), our land, and preying on our laws on religious freedom. I will continue to say it, but I don't think Islam should be considered a religion - It should be considered a forign culture (A non-religious designation) and I think we should do with it what America has allways done with and to forign cultures - assimilate it. We don't stop people from wearing a hijab - unless it's a security concern, which, as much as the liberals want it to be, ISN'T religious persecution - that can be construed as a relgious garb, but the secular portions of the Koran (Honestly, most of it) should be treated as a forign culture - not a religion - and assimilated. If this assimilation requires force, well, then they should have chsen to do it peacefully - they CHOSE to come here. We assimilated the Irish and the Italians with force too, forcing the criminals among them to be law abiding, no matter how poor they were, and forcing our population to accept them (You can't change someone's mind, but you can pass anti-discrimination laws - laws that are in place now... And the liberal idea of establishing "minority quotas" is simply idiotic - you hire the most qualified person for the job, regardless of race, gender (Except for combat troops, but that's something else entirely), sexual orientation, etc.) - look where they are now. Oh, that's right, you can't see them. You just see an American. We NEED to do the same with Islamic people - assimilate them to the point that all you see is an American, not change ourselves so the normal american looks like a Muslim.

phew... I think that answered everything lol - sorry for the wall of text.
If you want me to illaborate on anything, just ask :) I eagerly await your counter-argument and/or agreement (Dare I hope? ).

I guess this is a loggerheads, my man. I really have nothing more to add, as I believe I've stated my piece. I do feel like some of your points are flat-out impossibilities, as there are always issues that people will care enough to take a stance on and defend (such as legalising the barbarity of stoning and rape - if homosexuality, and a marriage of, can be legalised, there is hope for better).

I personally also feel like Trump may be a catalyst for change, albeit in the sense that if people realise that they hold the power for revolution, they could reshape everything instead of waiting for him to impeach himself.

I do agree with much of what you've said, if not completely the amount of weight you place on certain bits, but this is where we stop? :P This was surprisingly civil, all things considered! I hope to see you around these fora, friend.

I hope to see you around too m8 :) I enjoyed this little debate, and honestly, you gave me an opportunity to solidify and even change (Slightly - no massive shifts lol) some of my opinions - which I'm grateful for :)

Before we end tho, do you mind telling what points of mine are impossibilities? I'd be interested to know - information is power, and new information is never bad unless it's false - and even that is useful in telling you who not to listen too/trust lol.

As to Trump, I suppose I wasn't really clear - I disagree with him on alot of things, agree with him on others, but I think he was/is a better candidate than Hillary - he's not my first choice by any means however.

As to the "surprising" civility, I respect that others hold diferent opinions than me lol - I might not agree, or even totally dissagre, but yelling "you're stupid, I'm the only one who could possibly be right" from the rooftops (Or forums, as the case may be) doesn't help anyone - and furthermore, it harms me, as I miss the chance to come into contact with other opinions/ideas that may also be true - or prove my opinions false/wrong. I might feel the need to forcibly change someone's way of life if they try to interfere with or effect mine, but rational diferences of opinion never hurt anyone - unless you make it hurt you, or are dealing with revolutionaries/violence - which gets back to the "effecting my way of life" bit.

Thank you so much for the debate m8! It was fun :)

P.s. Wanna be friends?

Originally posted by <Kl0nd1kE> ߷:

Originally posted by Dude13:

ok, it seem you've taken the wrong things from these videos... I will say that neither is perfect tho lol. It wasn't REALLY that important to whatch the whole thing - I just didn't want you to stop after the first 5 seconds xD

As to the wifebeating thing, yes all of the religious books have it in them - its one of the reasons why I hate religion in general. however, as was pointed out in one of the videos (If I linked the right ones lol), Christiany was reformed and has (I don't remember the exact line, but its something like this) "You should love your wife like you love yourself", and in another section (Also in the NT) "You should love your wife like Jesus does the church" - in other words you should be willing to die for your wife. In the Koran, none of that exists... there is no NT and no retractions/reformations. There is only the - secular - laws writen a LOOOOOONG time ago. When those laws came out, they were enlightened for the time, but again, they were almost entirely secular. Islam isn't so much a religion as a political movement. And yes, you are entirely correct, Catholics DID start the crusades - and I never said christianity was good, it has objectivly done worse things than Islam in the past, but in MODERN times, Muslims are the problem - and not just the extremists (I'll get to that in a sec). That being said however, they DID start pleanty of othere wars. That western society is now a larger military power than they are these days, war is no longer an option... so they resort to terrorism and propaganda to get their points across.

As to the propaganda thing, I suppose it's less actual propaganda than a refusal to assimilate. America is made up of immagrants. This is a well known true fact. However, what you don't see is a section of america with immigrants from Spain, and a section with immigrants from Russia, etc. You simply see "Americans" - and everyone speaks the natianal languge. If someone chooses - of their own free will, what these muslims are doing - to move to another country with a different culture, they cannot bring their own culture with them without impacting the "normal" culture in the host country (USA). The thing is, I'm not sure I want child abuse, 'revenge rapes', and stonings to be the normal american culture. So, they MUST assimilate if they wish to be part of OUR society. If the don't want to assimilate, then they can not assimilate somewhere else - preferably in their own country away from my loved ones.

As to Dearborn, what about that was Capitalism? They got food stamps and medicaid - both of which are/were SOCIALISTIC programs. Dearborn is an example of the above - simply a refusal to assimilate, and a try to bring their culture with them. And before you go off on the "But the US f'ed up the region in the first place" rant, no, no we didn't. The people who F'ed it (In modern times, it was plenty f***ed before too - just like EVERYWHERE in the world) up was 1) The Shia Sunni split 2) Great Britian/Winston Churchill 3) Russia 4) Iran 5) USA. And regardless, they still have the option to make their home country better OR to, OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL, move to the US.

I'm going to give an actual example of assimilation - and why it's so important. The US has many immagrants from both Ireland and Italy. way back in the past, these two groups would stab each other/fight in the streets on sight - they hated eac other's guts... due to ideas FROM THEIR OWN CULTURE. Nowadays, the only way to tell if someone is from Irish stock or Italian stock is to see what color their hair is - and see which one's got the better food (The Italians (Duh)) and which ones have the better beer (Who do you think? Though personally, I think German beer is better)



P.s. I WILL finish this later, but I've got to go right now :( I'll be back tho :)

You make a good argument, and I agree with you on much of it! I do want to clarify what I meant though.

(First off, I agree with you that the secular laws keeping the populace in check had nothing to do with Islam, and I do feel that if Muslims can't move forward enough morally to leave this mindset behind then they're doomed.)

You mention it wasn't only the US messing with the region before mass emigration started, and perhaps I should have said Western powers in general, but the consequences were more my point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE0fucxLvKI

I think you were tired when you wrote "to get their points across" rather than "to advance themselves in the eyes of their deity". :P

The "America is a country of immigrants" rhetoric comes across as weak when it's from people who sound like right-wing xenophobes (not an insult). What America is, is a country colonised centuries ago and freed itself of their rule but still fails its indigenous black population (are you familiar with BLM and the history of racial police brutality?) and labels immigrants as illegals and deports them on a whim (you hear of ICE?), but when minorities are ever given aid or elevated to anything approaching equal status, people of the majority demographic panic that they're going to be culled.

I do think you overthink the whole assimilation thing though, these people are still subject to the same laws of their state and country. Do you really think revenge rape or stoning (of the pebble-y kind) would be legalised? (Can't do much about child abuse though, that's been around a long time from what I hear, not brought over with le Muslims.) Still, even without the extreme case of Dearborn, do you not think it's hard to assimilate when your country's media is demonising your group (which I don't recall happening with the Irish and Italian)?

With the capitalistic American Dream, I meant using their money to force non-Arabic businesses out of town. Props to you for recognising food stamps and Medicaid as socialism in action, most Trump voters who were on these programs didn't figure this out (not to imply that you're a Trump voter though, or anywhere near as mentally impaired). I'm starting to like you. I have no idea how those expensive cars didn't end up on the Dearborn residents' taxes, I'd guess either tax fraud, corruption in the local government, or both.

As an agnostic atheist from a Muslim family, I can attest that assimilation of a large community of Muslims into general society isn't hard, but people will protest your presence anyway. I could expand on this later if you wish, but this part would be entirely anecdotal and not exactly submissible to the debate. I just feel like the USA being a hostile country doesn't help matters of immigrants assimilating.

I'm not denying that the US F***ed the place up, I just wanted to point out that the entirety of the blame cannot be put on us. There have been wars in the middle east (Or in Islamic areas in general) since before America was invented/founded - all we did was give more modern weapons and some more training. I'm not sure what that video was supposed to illustrate however, so I may be missing your point. The world - and I - are well aware that the US has interfered in the middle east since oil was discovered there.

As to the "get their point across" thing, no, I meant what I said. They might excuse it by saying they do it to please thir god, but in effect, what their god tells them to do is to take over other cultures - with force, if neccessary - and convert the population to islam - also with force, if neccessary. Oh yeah, and they're allowed to rape the local population... and enslave all the non-islamics and/or levy a Jizya on them - and the proper amount for a Jizya is not specified, so it could be whatever they want it to be.

To the immigrants thing, 1) I don't think I'm an xenophobe - or even right wing (I consider myself a moderate (aka 'a sane person')) - I might be considered a religiophope, but thet would mean I haven't studied reliogions enough to understand them and their problems. 2) As to oppressing black people, yes, this happened - in the past. What the BLM thing is tho, is an entirely illogical protest that gets alot of immoral and unethical media attention. If you look at the death statistics of people shot by police officers, you will find that the numbers are just about equal across the board when compared to the percentage of each race that is arrested for a crime. Furthermore, looking at crime statistics in the US, the highest numbers are actually black on black crime... 3) ICE deals with ILLEGAL immigrants - people who are NOT LEGALLY ALLOWED to be in this country. There IS a legal system to get into this country, and while yes, I'll agree it's broken, that does not give people the right to enter this country illegaly... I wounldn't care if the US didn't have so many socialist govenment programs (Which I do think we need, unchecked capitalism (Britian 1900s) is a HORRIBLE idea), but since we have those programs, I don't want to have to pay my money for someone who isn't supposed to be in this country. 3) I'm against giving minorities aid... not because I'm racist, but because that would be. I'm for giving ANYBODY who needs it aid - not just poor black people or poor Islamic people, but ALL poor people. Also, Ihave no problem with everyone being equal, and I'm not afraid to be "culled" as you put it. I'll sink or swim based on my own hard work... And while I do think America needs some changes to be better, I don't think those changes agree with or conform to the Islamic faith. I'm an egalitarian, while the religion of Islam is VERY male first (See revenge rapes and the punishments laid out in the Koran for disobedient daughters/wives).

So, on to your next point, which was the one about if stonings and rape, etc. would be legalized... Yes. We are a republic, and if enough people are for - or at least indifferent to Sharia law being adopted in this country, representatives for Sharia law (Under which stonings, revenge rapes, child abuse, etc. is legal) will be elected - and then institute Sharia law, making those things legal. Also, "Demonizing" Muslims? hahahaha Are you kidding me? The only media coverage muslims and islam gets is positive these days - unless it's related to Donald Trumps statements, but that's coverage of Donald Trump, not muslims. If anything, the Irish and Italians had it harder, as there was social stigmas against them (And they did get plenty of media coverage too - in the crime section of newspapers, regardless if it was warranted or not (Back then alot of criminals WERE of Irish or Italian decent as they came here with nothing, and resorted to crime to get something, however, the stigma was that ALL of them were dishonest, which simply wasn't true)). These days, there is a social stigma against (And you'll be demonized in the media for) disliking, or even disagreeing with, muslims.

As to using money to forse other business away, yeah, I suppose it is, but again, see what I said about assimilation. There is a difference between essentially moving your village/city to a different country, then taking that place over, and forcing competing bussinesses to close because your product is better/cheaper/etc. As to being a Trump voter, I'm not quite old enough to vote - yet :) . I probably would have voted for Trump tho - the reasons will probably surprise you tho. I don't particularly care what someone SAYS... I care about what they DO. Hillary Clinton has shown incompetence, neglegence, and a willingness to kill people to further her political carier. Also, alot of her poilicies are bats*** insane - with no money to pay for them... good Ideas, but no money to do them. Trump on the other hand, has shown that he can be successful - while still being within the law. Yes, he gamed the system a few times, but so would I if I knew how lol. Also, while hillary is ultra PC, Trump is about as anti-PC as possible - and while I don't agree with some of the stuff he says (Again, I only really care about what you do anyway), I'm VERY anti-PC. Shaming people into silence on a topic is how things like the holocaust start. No, I don't think it will come to that but, given the current PC trends, you never know...

I'm starting to like you too :) You have opinions and can rationally argue for them, without immediatly blowing up :)

Also, I'm not saying that the US should be hostile to immigration - quite the opposite in fact, I think immigration is a wonderful thing - it brings new ideas, people, money, etc., etc., etc.

And I'm sorry to hear that people are protesting your being here... I think it's wonderful that you're here. I have no problems with new people, or people from other cultures, I just don't appreciate them not assimilating, or coming in illegally. I suppose my main point is that if they're here, in the US, of they're own free will (Even if they are from a war zone - there are hundereds of other countries to go to), they can't expect to continue living in their culture here. We have our own culture, and they need to assimilate into it. Perhaps we could/should change our culture, idk, but I don't appreciate them doing it by taking over our media (No, I'm not crying "Fake news" right now, tho I do think that none of the mainstream outlets are that reliabe anymore), our land, and preying on our laws on religious freedom. I will continue to say it, but I don't think Islam should be considered a religion - It should be considered a forign culture (A non-religious designation) and I think we should do with it what America has allways done with and to forign cultures - assimilate it. We don't stop people from wearing a hijab - unless it's a security concern, which, as much as the liberals want it to be, ISN'T religious persecution - that can be construed as a relgious garb, but the secular portions of the Koran (Honestly, most of it) should be treated as a forign culture - not a religion - and assimilated. If this assimilation requires force, well, then they should have chsen to do it peacefully - they CHOSE to come here. We assimilated the Irish and the Italians with force too, forcing the criminals among them to be law abiding, no matter how poor they were, and forcing our population to accept them (You can't change someone's mind, but you can pass anti-discrimination laws - laws that are in place now... And the liberal idea of establishing "minority quotas" is simply idiotic - you hire the most qualified person for the job, regardless of race, gender (Except for combat troops, but that's something else entirely), sexual orientation, etc.) - look where they are now. Oh, that's right, you can't see them. You just see an American. We NEED to do the same with Islamic people - assimilate them to the point that all you see is an American, not change ourselves so the normal american looks like a Muslim.

phew... I think that answered everything lol - sorry for the wall of text.
If you want me to illaborate on anything, just ask :) I eagerly await your counter-argument and/or agreement (Dare I hope? ).