Originally posted by sqwid:

Originally posted by Loreknight:

Stop.
That's one of the points of this weapon. It reduces the effectiveness of large damage attacks but trades that for a less powerful uber, less healing, and makes the medic feel like he's playing a minigame called "how much longer before everyone is topped off :~:"
The thing is fine. In fact, the uber is only good if it is used before you push, since it takes time to build overheal, even during uber. I think you simply misjudged the item's purpose

I understand the purpose, but the problem is that although the Uber isn't as good as Stock Uber, it makes up for it with a bigger overheal that can only be countered by another Booster Shot that can match the Overheal or a Spy who can backstab the Medic's patient.

This is why all the other Mediguns in game are pretty balanced. There is very little deviation in healing and overheal between them, and the major differences are in their Ubercharges, which only lasts a few seconds and takes time to build. There is no passive overhealing that gives an advantage over any of them unlike the Booster Shot, making it pretty much the superior Medigun 90% of the time except for the Uber.

If there was a 1v1 between two Soldiers and two Medics, all at the same skill level, one with the Booster Shot and the other with the Stock Medigun. The one with the Booster Shot will always win against Soldiers because they have an extra overheal compared to the Soldier with the Stock Medigun.

I don't think that the Booster Shot needs a massive overhaul. Just an overheal nerf and an Uber build rate buff to compensate.

Decrease in normal heal rate and slower heal rate on non overhealed targets, but you will not touch my overheal cap.

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

Originally posted by CHAWLZ!:

Now this here is a very interesting point of discussion to me, and also a design decision I have put a lot of thought into, and stand very strongly behind.

Before I start I'd like to take a step back and discuss the Spy as a class. As I stated in my previous post, the Spy is a "high-effort, low-yield" class. What I mean by this isn't that he's useless, or underpowered, or can't effectively carry a team to victory. In fact, the reality is quite the opposite. The Spy has the ability to turn around games entirely with a single minor victory. This could be anything from destroying a pesky Sentry, taking out an extremely key target such as a charged Medic, or even sneeky-breeky capping the final point moments after the previous point is taken. However, he has very poor base damage output, no "real" mobility options, is insanely fragile, and becomes significantly less powerful against enemies that keep a certain level of awareness. To even get a single kill, a Spy more or less has to potentially outplay the entire enemy team using his surprisingly limited toolset. After all, he's one of the two classes in the game with a guaranteed, 100% one-hit kill attack, so it's only fair that he put a lot of effort in to get that kill.

This brings me to my main point: When a Spy gets a backstab, he's earned that kill. You can meme about facestabs, lagstabs, or goofy angles all you want, but that's the long and short of it. It's part of the reason Valve really hasn't strayed away from this effect for their unlockable knives, and instead focused more on changing up his playstyle with his cloak. Now's where it starts getting intersting: Le Dettonaire takes away the Spy's instantaneous gratification for his efforts. Pressing mouse 1 on an enemy's back, instead of immediately giving your team an advantage, delays the effects and puts the Spy in another potentially dangerous situation. There are two situations we're going to be talking about here: The previous variant (Enemy is alerted they have been stabbed) and the current (The bomb is mostly silent). Previously, after the Spy has already gone through the effort to outplay his opponent and get the stab, the enemy is suddenly put into a situation where they can redeem themselves, and are actively encouraged to. If the Spy gets the kill then hey, congratulations, he's spent four extra precious seconds (Which, in Team Fortress 2's combat, is a very, very long time) gaining the kill at effectively no benefit to himself. As I said previously, the Spy is a very fragile class though, and 4/9 classes can very, very easily turn around and destroy the (now cloakless) Spy, and continue on their merry way. Here's the real kicker though: If the Spy DOES manage to turn a corner and escape, his victim is now entirely on borrowed time, feeling entirely defenseless, and can do nothing but twiddle their thumbs waiting to die, which can be frustrating. As you can see here this dynamic creates scenarios that are potentially unfun for both parties, isn't at all beneficial to anyone, least of all the Spy equipping the weapon, which makes it undesirable as an optimal tool.

With the current changes (no sound, disguise is dropped on backstab) this dynamic changes entirely. The Spy gets his stab, and could potentially get away with it, and no longer needs to immediately attempt to escape, and can even press his luck and attempt to tag multiple targets if the situation calls for it. However, if the Spy doesn't consider his surroundings his target's teammates could very well call him out on his bullshit and stop him right there. This is subtley different from the previous incarnation in that instead of forcing an uninteresting encounter that neither party wants to be part of, it creates more dynamic skrimishes between a Spy and the enemy team and encourages more teamplay ("A spy just planted a bomb in you, Engineer! Turn around!"). This much more closely resembles my original design goals for the weapon (Allow the Spy to trade his immediate reward for the potential to chain multiple kills and even deal collateral damage, spreading chaos throughout), and opens up not just a new way for the Spy to perform his role, but effects the flow of the game in a way that's engaging, rewards specific and useful skills (awareness, communication with teammates, identifying threats). Of course the weapon will still have its issues (knife still makes light stabbing sound which can end in encounters like previous discussed in quiet environments, players can feel "cheated" out of their chance to live), but I feel despite that the benefits, novelty, and new ways to play the weapon introduce far outweigh the negatives.

1. No ones going to communicate. 2. If you wanted to chain stabs just use yer. 3. I dont really even see a point to this weapon. 4. What you stated is litterally why i dont see a point to this weapon, its unfun. The current version is unfun to fight against, and the old one was unfun to fight against.

1. I do, lots of other players I see do
2. Custom weapons
3. Trades instant backstab for explosive backstab
4. I agree with this

Originally posted by sqwid:

I would like to see the Booster Shot get an overheal nerf that guarantees the Overheal (without Uber) to not go over 450 max. A Medic pocketing a Heavy takes away the Heavy's biggest counter: the Sniper, and any aware team that can pick out a Spy easily can make for a Heavy with an absurd amount of HP and the only way to counter that is with a Medic with his own Booster Shot.

The same problem exists with the Darwin's Danger Shield with Sniper in which the Sniper's main counter (another Sniper) is nullified because it forces the other Sniper to use the DDS in order to win a 1v1.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on that weapon.

Stop.
That's one of the points of this weapon. It reduces the effectiveness of large damage attacks but trades that for a less powerful uber, less healing, and makes the medic feel like he's playing a minigame called "how much longer before everyone is topped off :~:"
The thing is fine. In fact, the uber is only good if it is used before you push, since it takes time to build overheal, even during uber. I think you simply misjudged the item's purpose

Originally posted by CHAWLZ!:

Originally posted by Loreknight:

Mate.did you know that trying things doesn't hurt? Just give em to donators only for now, let us test them. I will NOT let you just fucking instantly say no because they MIGHT fucking works and they might not. I thought custom weapons were allowed to change roles of classes? Are you against a helpful supportive scout, or do you want him to continue to be a self-helping shitbag?
Trying them does no harm,. This server was MADE for testing these kind of things.

Of course my dude. These are just my opinions, not gospel. You shared your ideas and I expressed how I felt they might play out in real scenarios, and how they might effect the flow of the game. If you disagree then feel free to lay out your counter-arguments, this is what discussion boards like this are made for. For the specific example of the scout-wrench you proposed with your arguments (Novelty, theme-fitting, opens a defense-oriented playstyle for the scout), to which I responded with my own (Being encouraged to babysit Sentry nests as Scout is incredibly boring compared to his high-octane standard role, subtley shifts the server's meta farther towards slow turtly play, makes life more difficult for an already high-effort low-yield class (Spy), creates more situations where powerful, unintersting-to-fight Engineer nests stay up longer then they necessarily should). If you believe that Scouts would truly enjoy spending more time with their friendly neighbbourhood Engineers, that the problem of undoing a Spy's hard work is a non-issue (Scouts do leave themselves mildly vulnerable while attacking Sappers, after all), or perhaps have an angle I simply haven't explored yet to discuss, then your best option is to open up further dialogue rather then insist it will just "work" despite the potential issues I've brought up. After all, I'm not the final wall between your idea and the dream coming true, despite my role in the server's development, and never will be.

Sorry, man. Although I still think the multi class items are worth TESTING. It's the purpose of the server, ya know? Like I said, we test them for like a month, see what works, keep it, what doesnt, scrap it. No harm, no foul. I was in with the handyman being supportive because the scout still partially relies on engineers as he can
1.) Run to the sentry for protection
2.) Uses the dispenser to resupply and get back out faster

A good scout could make use of sapper removal to
1.) Maybe earn the trust of the engineer to be allowed on the tele after everyone else
2.) Lure enemies into the sentry, then safeguard against spies this time instead of creating unnecessary difficulty for the engineer and leaving him alone to defend
3.) Keep the dispenser up to continue using it for resupply
And 4.) Use the intact engineer setup as a train station for medics to use him to get around fast

This is if he's a good, team loving scout (which I admit is hard to find)

Right now i would REALLY like the server to use the !friendly plugin, but make only donators and staff able to use it, so we can keep the amount of players taking up a slot but not fighting to a minimum, along with getting another incentive for donating.
also, i really think we should AT LEAST use the femscout voice pack. Downloading things REALLY isn't much of a problem to anyone, even me, despite how i have ADHD, Autism, and very little patience.

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

Originally posted by Loreknight:

You really have a problem, mate.
There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. WITH TESTING SHIT!

I never said it was wrong. Im encouraging it saying go wild, its about wacky weapons that wouldnt be in the real game.

Oh shit. I never noticed that you said shouldNT. Sorry man.

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

Originally posted by Loreknight:

Mate.did you know that trying things doesn't hurt? Just give em to donators only for now, let us test them. I will NOT let you just fucking instantly say no because they MIGHT fucking works and they might not. I thought custom weapons were allowed to change roles of classes? Are you against a helpful supportive scout, or do you want him to continue to be a self-helping shitbag?
Trying them does no harm,. This server was MADE for testing these kind of things.

Also, this server is about weapons that wouldnt make it real game. The jump action shotgun would never make it into the real game (COUGH its shit COUGH)

You really have a problem, mate.
There. Is. Nothing. Wrong. WITH TESTING SHIT!

Originally posted by CHAWLZ!:

Originally posted by Loreknight:

I'm gonna list existing weaoons with the classes we should also give them too

Sharp shooter: engineer, heavy, soldier
The conventional:engineer
Marauders mace:demoman
Texan heatmaker:scout
Melfs magic poison:scout
Modified Aussie possie trap:demoman (does damage, can sticky jump, and can be detonated while not active)
Melee booster:demoman

SHARP SHOOTER:
I feel like this weapon wouldn't really suit Heavy or Soldier's playstyle, as the Sharp Shooter as it stands benefits largely to shotty/melee-heavy play where it would be significantly less useful on the two slowest classes in the game who both have primary weapons that are far more useful in 90% of regular in-game situations. On Engineer I'm on the fence because it also doesn't really suit his personality to turn around a shotgun and start using it as a melee weapon, but he could use both parts to great effect and primary Sharp Shooter could turn out pretty clutch under the right circumstances.

CONVENTIONAL:
Could absolutely work, the crits would be especially powerful for Engineer as he can hide behind his Sentry to pick off players trying to outrange his Sentry, but the marked-for-death leaves him super vulnerable, too.

MARAUDER'S MACE:
Demoman already efectively has this weapon's gimmick through the Iron Boots. Also, as an Advanced Weaponiser legacy weapon I'd personally rather it stay as a Soldier item.

TEXAN HEATMAKER:
Considering the weapon is an extremely blatant and unapologetic spychecking tool, I feel like the Scout wouldn't really benefit much from this tool. Plus, players already find it irritating enough being ignited by the Condiment Cannon, does Scout really need another item that exists solely to be irritating?

MELF'S MAGIC POTION:
No opinion either way, really.

AUSSIE POSSIE TRAP:
The whole weapon's gimmick is that it's a stickybomb launcher for the Sniper (with added effect). If you give it to the Demoman, it's just a stickybomb launcher for the Demoman (with added effect). That's not particularly interesting!

MELEE BOOSTER:
Whether it replaced the Grenade Launcher or the Stickybomb Launcher, the Demoman would simply not benefit from this. It works for Scout because he is very fast and can viably approach enemies to smack them with his melee. In vanilla TF2 this is balanced by the fact that he has the second-to-worst melee in the game damage-wise, and what the Melee Booster is designed around. Demoman is just too slow, and his explosives/shield provide him with more benefits then the Melee Booster ever could.


As far as the Handyman's wrench-effects, they're really neither here nor there. On one hand, a Scout has no reason to really be hanging out around Engineer nests when he could be out performing his actual role of getting picks on key targets and causing chaos on enemies in combat. On the other hand, this weapon's existance could provide an un-needed subtle buff to tf2's already very powerful defensive game, where a Spy who successfully plans out an assault on an Engineer's nest could have all his hard work undone by a passing Scout who just happens to have the weapon equipped, or by executing his plan and having no way to know a Scout he's decided isn't important can save the Engineer's sentry gun while the Spy is busy attempting to escape to safety. There are more elements to my opinion of the function but the gist of it is that it's potentially very messy for the flow of the game and I think it's much more beneficial for everyone if this specific encounter-type isn't muddled too much in that sort of direction.

Mate.did you know that trying things doesn't hurt? Just give em to donators only for now, let us test them. I will NOT let you just fucking instantly say no because they MIGHT fucking works and they might not. I thought custom weapons were allowed to change roles of classes? Are you against a helpful supportive scout, or do you want him to continue to be a self-helping shitbag?
Trying them does no harm,. This server was MADE for testing these kind of things.

Ask for this on the balance suggestion thread instead of making a new thread

The were removed, crafting's decisions. Unbalanced, apparently. Now that I've answered you, could ya remove this discussion? No need to keep an answered question around