Originally posted by Loreknight:

Originally posted by sqwid:

The overheal however is low enough that the Sniper can still one hit kill someone. The Booster Shot however doesn't allow for that because the overheal is too great. Not to mention even if the Medic is killed, the patient still has enough overheal to finish off the Medic's killer. If maybe on Medic's death somehow all overheal is gone it could possibly become more balanced, but capping the overheal seems like a better alternative.

Also I've never heard of a Scout "luring" an enemy into a sentry. The closest thing I've seen to that is a Pyro airblasting someone in a sentry's range, but other than that, nothing.

Plus giving the Scout the ability to remove sappers is just out of place. The only anti-Spy measure he has is the Mad Milk and even then he doesn't camp around buildings that much anyway.

Pyros being able to remove Sappers makes more sense because the Pyro is Spy's hardest counter so it'd make sense for Pyro to have an anti-Spy sapping device. Giving the Scout the ability to remove Sappers make about as much sense as Scout getting a weapon that crits on burning targets.

And yeah you can see how that worked out.

OK
Let me put it this way
Surviving a sniper headshot is a main point of this weapon and overheal in general
Do. You. Fucking. Understand. THIS!?
And I already fucking told you that scouts dont need to camp the engineer buildings to help protect them. He uses the dispenser to resupply constantly.
GOOD scouts can get an enemy's attention, then running to the sentry as a trap

I ink you don't understand what I've told you 3 FUCKING TIMES

As I've said before, the Booster Shot eliminates pretty much all of the counters that any class has. It allows classes to get an overheal that can't be dealt with by other classes unless there's a Med on the other team running it to compensate. The only class that can be used to counter it are Spies, but because Pyros are able to Spycheck so easily, it allows for the team running the Booster Shot to have a huge advantage over a team with a Medic running any other Medigun. That's why I believe it needs a change. It forces the enemy to counterplay with the same weapon, which is bad design.

Scouts using dispensers to resupply constantly is a big overstatement. Scouts usually hang around dispensers about the same amount of time as other classes, maybe even less. Scouts tend to be in the front lines collecting health packs as their main sources of health and picking up ammo packs as their main source of ammo. Dispensers are a last resort when the Scout is at very low health and a Medic isn't around or is busy.

I've never seen a good Scout lure an enemy into a sentry because they aren't really that big of a surprise (they make beeps and the whole team can hear a sentry firing). GOOD Scouts will get into a fight, pick off targets, and back off when they've taken some damage. They usually will deal enough damage to pick off an enemy instead of trying to "lure" enemies into a sentry. Usually if any Scout tries to do that, they are just fucking around and not taking things seriously.

And lastly to wrap this argument up, I am listening carefully to every point you are trying to make and understand your logic. I am simply counterarguing to try to prove my logic as well. There is a difference between not listening to your points and arguing against them. Remember that no one's opinion about how this game is objectively right. It is our job to make our own cases for how this mod goes and the developers will decide whether our ideas is made into the game. For now I feel like every single statement made about these two weapons have been made and any further discussion will just rehash points that have already been stated. We will let Crafting and the developers decide what to do at this point in order so this thread doesn't get clogged up.

Originally posted by CHAWLZ!:

The Duke has been a pretty hot topic lately so I think it'd be a great thing to bring up. At the moment, though it takes away a lot through the loss of knife and disguise kit, it provides a deceptively powerful list of bonuses that make Duke-equipped Spies fairly hard to deal with and a force to be reckoned with in any chaotic firefight, especially with the considerable buffs the base Spy class has seen in the past ~year. I've seen a number of great suggestions brought up in-game to fix the weapon so I thought I'd compile them here (Alongside some of my own) and stir up some discussion.

-Reduce speed boost on hit to 1 second
-Remove speed boost altogether
-Reduced critical damage
-Health penalty
-Reload rate penalty
-Fire rate penalty
-Reduced max ammo
-Cannot pick up ammo kits dropped by players
-Reduced acuracy

Obviously all of these things at once would cripple the weapon, so I'd like to see what the community thinks we could do with the it, because I'm a pretty big fan of the Duke personally and would like to see it in a good spot where it's considered a lot more reasonable and less rage-inducing.

I feel like the speed boost removal would be best. It makes it annoying to play against, especially as a Pyro because the Spy can outrun their flames.

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

^ you do realise the sun on a stick got a buff so it doesnt just crit on burning targets. It has fire resistance now. So its not total garbage.
Also, i believe pyro was gunna get sun on a stick and scout the volcano fragment. But then they wanted to make more money so they swapped it and made axtinguisher.

The fire resistance is pretty worthless still because Mad Milk exists. The point I really wanted to make is that giving the Scout the ability to remove sappers is as random as giving the Scout an Axtinguisher-like weapon.

Originally posted by Loreknight:

Originally posted by sqwid:

I've been on a few matches where Medics use the Booster Shot to pocket Heavies for the entire duration of the game. It was a steamroll no matter what the opposing team did because there was no way to take care of the Heavy + Medic combos. Demomen, Soldiers, even Snipers were all ineffective and it was just unfun to play against and unfun to be on the side steamrolling the other team too. Not to mention combined with some other custom weapons that buff the Heavy's resistances.


The difference mainly is because it nerfs the Spy and makes his sappers even less effective and really it's just a random attribute that frankly makes no sense. Why would a Scout be hovering around the Engi's buildings? He's supposed to be out flanking the enemy team, not camping around a dispenser all the time.

Did you know that focusing the medic first and/or coordinating with one or more teammates is very effective?

Did you also know that overheal is supposed to counter sniper?

Did you know that scouts already make use of their engineers for restocking between fights and luring enemies into sentries?

Did you know that altering the scout's selfish role isn't actually a bad thing

The overheal however is low enough that the Sniper can still one hit kill someone. The Booster Shot however doesn't allow for that because the overheal is too great. Not to mention even if the Medic is killed, the patient still has enough overheal to finish off the Medic's killer. If maybe on Medic's death somehow all overheal is gone it could possibly become more balanced, but capping the overheal seems like a better alternative.

Also I've never heard of a Scout "luring" an enemy into a sentry. The closest thing I've seen to that is a Pyro airblasting someone in a sentry's range, but other than that, nothing.

Plus giving the Scout the ability to remove sappers is just out of place. The only anti-Spy measure he has is the Mad Milk and even then he doesn't camp around buildings that much anyway.

Pyros being able to remove Sappers makes more sense because the Pyro is Spy's hardest counter so it'd make sense for Pyro to have an anti-Spy sapping device. Giving the Scout the ability to remove Sappers make about as much sense as Scout getting a weapon that crits on burning targets.

And yeah you can see how that worked out.

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

Originally posted by sqwid:

He probably wasn't at full health or wasn't spun up. That's the only thing I can think of unless he had a minigun with a damage penalty.

Well, lets see, mini gun at point blank has 600 dps. If it has a -50% damage penalty, well then, 300 dps point blank? i cant math. So, if you had the surpise you could win.

You could, but if he had another minigun he would've won.

Originally posted by Commence the Jiggin':

Originally posted by sqwid:

But that's the one thing wrong with the weapon. The overheal cap still presents a problem. Unless healed targets get a crit vulnerability so that a Sniper can still headshot a Heavy, it needs rebalancing.

well
actually, I remember this one time, I was using the ekaterina or however you spelled it, I mowed down a medic and his overhealed heavy, I think he was at 600 health and I was at 300, I think I won becasue I got the surprise on them, we were both at point blank at eachother

He probably wasn't at full health or wasn't spun up. That's the only thing I can think of unless he had a minigun with a damage penalty.

Originally posted by Loreknight:

Originally posted by sqwid:

But that's the one thing wrong with the weapon. The overheal cap still presents a problem. Unless healed targets get a crit vulnerability so that a Sniper can still headshot a Heavy, it needs rebalancing.

No.it does not. The weapon is fine, I've tried it a good amount, and it's okay.

I've been on a few matches where Medics use the Booster Shot to pocket Heavies for the entire duration of the game. It was a steamroll no matter what the opposing team did because there was no way to take care of the Heavy + Medic combos. Demomen, Soldiers, even Snipers were all ineffective and it was just unfun to play against and unfun to be on the side steamrolling the other team too. Not to mention combined with some other custom weapons that buff the Heavy's resistances.

Originally posted by AwesomeGuyDj:

Originally posted by CHAWLZ!:

1. This is a pretty pessimistic view to have! I find the server to be pretty active discussion-wise, and see a lot of good teamwork efforts on a regular basis. Of course this depends entirely on who's online, but in the case of a good portion of the regulars this is true.
2. Your Eternal Reward can, indeed, be used to chain backstabs, but provides a significantly different tool to do so, and comes with its own very different risk. In the end both weapons can be used to fairly similar effect, but both change your playstyle in significantly different ways.
3. I posted three paragraphs explaining, in detail, how the weapon changes up the Spy's playstyle and what good the weapon can do, and why players would be iclined to use it. There's really not a lot mroe I can tell you.
4. Would you mind explaining how it's any more unfun then being backstabbed by a regular Spy Knife? As I stated before the choice to remove the sound effect for the victim was partially to remove the "unfun" feeling of dread and uselessness after failing to kill the Spy stabbing you, and the removal of the disguise-keeping provides, again, opportunities for teamwork-based counterplay, not just for the victim, but for the victim's teammates. A race to defeat the Spy and save your friend's life! That sounds pretty exciting to me.

So you say that its good because it changes the flow, but werent you the one saying how lores handyman would be bad because it changes the pace and role of scout?

The difference mainly is because it nerfs the Spy and makes his sappers even less effective and really it's just a random attribute that frankly makes no sense. Why would a Scout be hovering around the Engi's buildings? He's supposed to be out flanking the enemy team, not camping around a dispenser all the time.

Originally posted by Loreknight:

Originally posted by sqwid:

I understand the purpose, but the problem is that although the Uber isn't as good as Stock Uber, it makes up for it with a bigger overheal that can only be countered by another Booster Shot that can match the Overheal or a Spy who can backstab the Medic's patient.

This is why all the other Mediguns in game are pretty balanced. There is very little deviation in healing and overheal between them, and the major differences are in their Ubercharges, which only lasts a few seconds and takes time to build. There is no passive overhealing that gives an advantage over any of them unlike the Booster Shot, making it pretty much the superior Medigun 90% of the time except for the Uber.

If there was a 1v1 between two Soldiers and two Medics, all at the same skill level, one with the Booster Shot and the other with the Stock Medigun. The one with the Booster Shot will always win against Soldiers because they have an extra overheal compared to the Soldier with the Stock Medigun.

I don't think that the Booster Shot needs a massive overhaul. Just an overheal nerf and an Uber build rate buff to compensate.

Decrease in normal heal rate and slower heal rate on non overhealed targets, but you will not touch my overheal cap.

But that's the one thing wrong with the weapon. The overheal cap still presents a problem. Unless healed targets get a crit vulnerability so that a Sniper can still headshot a Heavy, it needs rebalancing.

Originally posted by Commence the Jiggin':

Originally posted by sqwid:

I understand the purpose, but the problem is that although the Uber isn't as good as Stock Uber, it makes up for it with a bigger overheal that can only be countered by another Booster Shot that can match the Overheal or a Spy who can backstab the Medic's patient.

This is why all the other Mediguns in game are pretty balanced. There is very little deviation in healing and overheal between them, and the major differences are in their Ubercharges, which only lasts a few seconds and takes time to build. There is no passive overhealing that gives an advantage over any of them unlike the Booster Shot, making it pretty much the superior Medigun 90% of the time except for the Uber.

If there was a 1v1 between two Soldiers and two Medics, all at the same skill level, one with the Booster Shot and the other with the Stock Medigun. The one with the Booster Shot will always win against Soldiers because they have an extra overheal compared to the Soldier with the Stock Medigun.

I don't think that the Booster Shot needs a massive overhaul. Just an overheal nerf and an Uber build rate buff to compensate.

Couldn't a med use the kritzkreig? I mean, if a direct hit soldiers aim is true and the kritz are there, maybe three shots if the heavy has reached 900 health and depending on how close you are, a sniper or spy could be trying to get that med while they're busy, I think with some team work you could handle it pretty well....hopefully if your team is really having a hard time with it and really wanna win, they'll help

Exactly why I put in the (besides Uber) part. A Kritzed Soldier or Demo can counter the Booster Shot, but in terms of normal gameplay when Ubers aren't accounted for the Booster Shot wins most of the time. A Booster Shot boosted DPS class can kill a pocketed teammate and his Medic, forcing the Medic to mostly having to build Uber in spawn, which isn't fun for anyone.

Originally posted by Loreknight:

Originally posted by sqwid:

I would like to see the Booster Shot get an overheal nerf that guarantees the Overheal (without Uber) to not go over 450 max. A Medic pocketing a Heavy takes away the Heavy's biggest counter: the Sniper, and any aware team that can pick out a Spy easily can make for a Heavy with an absurd amount of HP and the only way to counter that is with a Medic with his own Booster Shot.

The same problem exists with the Darwin's Danger Shield with Sniper in which the Sniper's main counter (another Sniper) is nullified because it forces the other Sniper to use the DDS in order to win a 1v1.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on that weapon.

Stop.
That's one of the points of this weapon. It reduces the effectiveness of large damage attacks but trades that for a less powerful uber, less healing, and makes the medic feel like he's playing a minigame called "how much longer before everyone is topped off :~:"
The thing is fine. In fact, the uber is only good if it is used before you push, since it takes time to build overheal, even during uber. I think you simply misjudged the item's purpose

I understand the purpose, but the problem is that although the Uber isn't as good as Stock Uber, it makes up for it with a bigger overheal that can only be countered by another Booster Shot that can match the Overheal or a Spy who can backstab the Medic's patient.

This is why all the other Mediguns in game are pretty balanced. There is very little deviation in healing and overheal between them, and the major differences are in their Ubercharges, which only lasts a few seconds and takes time to build. There is no passive overhealing that gives an advantage over any of them unlike the Booster Shot, making it pretty much the superior Medigun 90% of the time except for the Uber.

If there was a 1v1 between two Soldiers and two Medics, all at the same skill level, one with the Booster Shot and the other with the Stock Medigun. The one with the Booster Shot will always win against Soldiers because they have an extra overheal compared to the Soldier with the Stock Medigun.

I don't think that the Booster Shot needs a massive overhaul. Just an overheal nerf and an Uber build rate buff to compensate.