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ayubalugu 1 Dec, 2015 @ 12:34pm
Proposed changes to Theme 12 (Science Victory only game)
Thoughts about Theme 12:

This Theme is a Science Victory only game, but as the rules allow for war, you can win by eliminating or seriously crippling your opponents with military. Either win the game as remaining payers concede or win the space race due to being in a much better position in terms of science and production. (I admit I personally won 2 Theme 12 games, 1 by each method I described, but I had not planned this from the beginning, the games just evolved in a way that I ended up using a lot of military).

I am actually proposing to ban Theme 12 (not change it, so as to keep the previous games separate from the new games that will be played with new rules), but create a new Theme with same rules & settings PLUS some rules about war.

Completely banning war would not be good in my opinion, that would make it a totally different game than Civilization V.

I am thinking of a rule of not being able to capture an opponent Civ's city, maybe exclude the cities captured from City States.

Killing military units, capturing / killing civilian units should be fair game.

Maybe even ban pillaging enemy improvements (if you are significantly ahead in military might, you can cripple enemy cities by pillaging everything around them without capturing the city).

This may allow for some interesting "proxy-war" type of game. You might march along your allied CS and destroy enemy units then, maybe your CS ally will capture the enemy city. On second thought, I guess bombarding enemy cities should also be banned, otherwise you can bomb it down to 0 HP and the CS ally can capture it easily.

Anyway, please share your opinions.

Thanks

Ayubalugu from the League Admin Team
Last edited by ayubalugu; 1 Dec, 2015 @ 1:23pm
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Showing 1-13 of 13 comments
woadax 1 Dec, 2015 @ 1:21pm 
fine
#1
AugusTIN 1 Dec, 2015 @ 1:30pm 
hm ... either complete BAN of war (only defending against barbarians), so we are playing "for ourselves" comparing how skilled and fast someone can reach Alpha Centauri, OR just leave it as it is, leave it as pure Civ experience where the goal is reaching stars, BUT also taking care of military and fight wars if necessary.

Everything in between doesn't sound attractive out of my view.
#2
Skifans 1 Dec, 2015 @ 2:17pm 
Id personaly go for a complete ban and war and bararians. Make it purley a science based race to the finnish.
#3
hoagie 2 Dec, 2015 @ 12:17am 
I agree to the "flaws" of existing Theme 12 and I like to idea to create a new one.

And I also like the idea of having one theme that is completely without war (and no barbarians). sound attractive to me, will be a completely different civ experience without the military option.
#4
ayubalugu 2 Dec, 2015 @ 8:46am 
@Woadax Thanks :)

@AugusTIN Some players in the T12 games I played said that they were not expecting military assault on them. So, even if we leave the T12 as is, I thıink we should add more explanation in the Theme Rules. However, if most players want the changes, then it would probably be better to ban T12.

@AugusTIN, Skifans, Hoagie looks like there is some interest in a no war Theme. Then we should decide on:

a) barbarians or no barbarians (no barbs will make it a pure no war game)

b) allow just Science Victory or also allow others (Culture, Diplomatic)

c) which era to start? In my personal opinion, an Anceient Era start no-war game might be too uneventful for a very long time. However, later era starts should be thought through carefully (ex: Theme 4 Modern Era no war game for Cultural Victory got banned as it was possible to win the game in 10-15 turn by getting a Great Person and use Futurism Autocracy tenet, which gives +250 Tourism with every other civ and at that point no one has enough Culture to defend against that much Tourism).
Last edited by ayubalugu; 2 Dec, 2015 @ 8:47am
#5
adyyc 2 Dec, 2015 @ 11:26am 
I would love a pure Science victory. I agree with Hoagie:
a) no barbarians

b) allow just Science Victory

In the theme 12 i had lost to war, even if i was leading in tech.

War can be used in other themes, but it should be a pure science victory.
Also we should ban civs Babylon and Korea, or at least Babylon.

Maybe war with city states could be allowed, maybe you want to generate some Great Generals so you can use to get some land.
Last edited by adyyc; 2 Dec, 2015 @ 11:37am
#6
Skifans 2 Dec, 2015 @ 12:42pm 
I agree with adyyc, no barrarians would make sure that it remains a pure Science victory. I also agree that Sciency victory would be the only one allowed. I do though agree that maybe an Acience era start may be a little long. Id imagine Medival would work best but I cant claim to have tested it with a run though.
#7
ayubalugu 2 Dec, 2015 @ 12:46pm 
BTW, with the current settings, Theme 12 is a Classic Era start, which eliminates the free Great Writer bonus for Babylon. I was surprised and upset when this happened to me. Babylon was losing part of its UA due to a later era start, but Poland was actually benefiting from this and was starting the game with 1 more social policy than everyone else, unfair.
#8
AugusTIN 2 Dec, 2015 @ 2:13pm 
Great: No war, nor barb, ONLY science, ad later start ... Classical? or even later. Speed Quick :)
#9
hoagie 2 Dec, 2015 @ 2:30pm 
Maybe we should leave barbarians and allow wars with city states. because that way the military buildings to have at least some purpose. :) i think classical age as a start would be good.
#10
ayubalugu 3 Dec, 2015 @ 8:44am 
If you allow war with CSs, but not allow war among Civs; then the first Civ to conquer a CS will be permanent owner.

Also, similar to the usage of military might scenarios I described in my initial post, a Civ with a significant military can go on a conquest of all or most of CSs and no one would be allowed to intervene. I am not sure conquering all or most of CSs would mean that that Civ will win the Space race, but can be significant in same ways (denying happiness and resources to other civs for example).

Would this be OK?
#11
hoagie 3 Dec, 2015 @ 11:32am 
no, i do not think this is good. mmh...

i was asking myself initially how the game is changing if there is no reason to think about / pay attention to any kind of military aspect (units, buildings, ...) as player. it might be interessting to have at least a minimum reason to build some military items.

so, if we deny PvP wars and PvCS wars, but allow barbarians (maybe even aggressive barbariens) than there might be a need to build at least some military units to defend against pillages, protect caravans.

to spice it up a bit and not to worry about planning big wars and the like but to be able to focus primarily on the space race instead.

How does that sound?

#12
adyyc 4 Dec, 2015 @ 11:43am 
Ideally an ancient/classical era start would be good for science, else we lose the idea of science race.

Yes it was a bad idea to propose war with CS. Instead ranging barbarians seems fair, but will introduce a bit of randomness in the game.
#13
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Date Posted: 1 Dec, 2015 @ 12:34pm
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