Avoid using the word scam there. Scamming is a completely different scenario, referring to breach of contract.

To rebut, I'd like to provide an analogy. Let's say you've got two shops, one is selling a pair of shoes for €50, the other for €75. If you go into the shop selling them for €75, and ask them to reduce the price because the other shop is giving a better offer, odds are you'll achieve nothing.

If people take the time to shop around, and find the best deal, good for them, but that's their prerogative. No one is forcing them to do that. People have every right to sell an item for as much as they feel like. (Within reason, obviously asking for a Headcase for 2 scrap is ridiculous.) It's a free market, and on OP, it's generally kept that way.

If someone posts a trade where you disagree on the prices, it is not your position, nor your right to try and alter it. Just ignore the trade, keep calm andpraise the sun.carry on. They'll either lower their prices/raise their offer in eventuality to actually receive offers, or just leave entirely, where the problem solves itself.


That's just my take on it, anyway.

Actually, you're wrong. Wal-mart matches prices, lol.

Originally posted by Bob Ross:

Actually, you're wrong. Wal-mart matches prices, lol.

1. Set up private self owned store.
2. Buy expensive item.
3. Put on sale for 1 cent and hold.
4. Go to Wal-mart, demand they match price.
5. Drive them out of business.

Somehow I doubt that.

Bob is right. As far as the shoe example goes, I think it would depend on the shop as some people would actually want the business and if it is affordable would reduce their price especially if it is a single location business.

No price discussions means no flame wars. Most people on Outpost cannot behave in a civilized manner, they will shout at you and call you names if they don't agree with your pricing.

Very fair points made. I disagree with the shop analogy however, think about it this way:

You've got two shops, one is selling a pair of shoes for €50, the other for €75. Buyers only want to buy shoes for €35 and below, since that is what the general public thinks is the actual value of the item. Now these two shops, since they do not do any market research nor care to, start branching out and soon the entire street is filled with hundreds of shops all selling at this amount, leaving the buyer unhappy and unable to purchase his goods at the price that he wanted to. This is extremely inefficient and a huge waste of space on the street, and in Outpost's case, a huge waste of bandwith and server usage (notice the constant server downtimes, lags, as well as a very hefty hosting bill for the admins).

Originally posted by Mesmire:

You've got two shops, one is selling a pair of shoes for €50, the other for €75. Buyers only want to buy shoes for €35 and below, since that is what the general public thinks is the actual value of the item. Now these two shops, since they do not do any market research nor care to, start branching out and soon the entire street is filled with hundreds of shops all selling at this amount, leaving the buyer unhappy and unable to purchase his goods at the price that he wanted to.

Sadly, this analogy doesn't work for the simple fact that the public cannot dictate what prices are. If this were the case, I'm sure new vehicles and the price of food would be much less than they are now.

Simply put, The TF2 economy is in no way a capitalist market, but a barter market. Each trade is different from the rest and the owners of said items get to decide what it is worth to them and at what point they are willing to part with it. While there are commonly viewed prices for items, these are in no way concrete and final, and it is nobodies right to tell the owner that they must lower the price on their item.

Spreadsheet is good in it's way, keeps the prices in a range. Spreadsheet makes life harder for scammers (buy a bill hat for 5weapons and sell it for 1bud...) Prices will always vary, sometimes there are more customers for an item than buyers, sometimes it's reversed, So even if all related websites will decide same price for an item, this price range won't dissapear.

Originally posted by Currier Bell:

Sadly, this analogy doesn't work for the simple fact that the public cannot dictate what prices are. If this were the case, I'm sure new vehicles and the price of food would be much less than they are now.

Simply put, The TF2 economy is in no way a capitalist market, but a barter market. Each trade is different from the rest and the owners of said items get to decide what it is worth to them and at what point they are willing to part with it. While there are commonly viewed prices for items, these are in no way concrete and final, and it is nobodies right to tell the owner that they must lower the price on their item.

I did not mean that the public simply dictates the price, but rather plays a significant role in determining the price. I'm sure you have heard of Supply and Demand.

I definitely agree that the TF2 economy is most like a barter market. However this just further reinforces my point that the current system is extremely inefficient and a complete waste of resources on many levels, not to mention the high barriers of entry that prevent new buyers and sellers from ever wanting to step foot in Outpost again. The economy is essentially stagnant due to this. The inefficiency uses up valuable resources such as server space and seller time, as well as driving prices upwards for buyers.

By allowing and actually encouraging fellow members to comment on the prices if they disagree with them, the entire market structure will actually shift to a Free Market/Monopolistic Competition-based market where price is the determining factor. This significantly raises the purchasing power of almost every single Outpost user - buyer and seller alike - which allows for increased utility for buyers and increased profits for sellers. On top of that, Sneeza will no longer need to pay such ridiculous amounts to keep hosting up, and can spend the surplus revenue on improving the site and granting more services to its users. There is a reason that we don't use the barter market anymore.

I'd have to disagree with you on a few points. Just for one aspect of the economy, not too far in the distant past, the unusual market was thriving and they were sought after because of how valuable they were to many people. It was only until the quickselling trend took over that people could wait out and score unusuals for the equivalent of a bills hat in some cases. The "cancer" terms were thrown around because of people commenting on trades about prices until anything less than an energy unusual became a hard sell unless you give in to the competition and undersell it because of market perception of poor value.

This lead to the promotional items becoming the top choice for value stability, while the rest of the market has fallen flat. The best way to reverse this would to allow the prices on items to rise and break the demand on earbuds as being one of the few items actually worth anything.

If all unusuals were valuable again, people wouldn't be afraid to purchase them, we wouldn't see these QUICKSELLSQUICKSELLSQUICKSELLS trades and people would have options and could work up through a myriad of options rather than through the very narrow window of items that people think are worth anything.

Competition does not work here simply because we are dealing with identical items for the most part. Just undercutting other people for the simple fact of a fast sell just makes the next people looking for that item say "that person sold cheaper, so should you". Letting price discussion happen would be a poor choice because nobody would ever say "you need to sell for more", it would always be the other way and cheapen items that aren't earbuds even further, allowing those who already have them just get richer.

And that is just one part of it, the same has happened all over the economy (craft hats, out of season items, etc.). Price discussion needs to be disallowed on individual trades because it only pulls down prices and continues the spiral. The rich get richer, and the barrier of entry just gets higher. Also, on the bandwidth case, I can't really comment on that since trading is a slow process and it is a necessary evil.

Very fair point. We both seem to agree that general prices will go down if price discussions were allowed. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Only a very small percentage of TF2 players and those involved on Outpost are "rich" enough to trade unusuals and items worth more than a few keys. In fact, the vast majority of players only own a few craft hats.

When price discussion is allowed and encouraged, the purchasing power of the entire economy's participants will increase. This easily translates to increased utility and satisfaction for buyers as well as increased profits for sellers.

The whole point that price is manipulated with constant undercutting is that it stimulates competition. The fact that someone would say "that person sold cheaper, so should you" significantly brings prices down to more acceptable levels. Right now, only a small handful of members own Unusuals as I have mentioned. But many of these individuals own more than one and are drastically increasing in wealth and "power" over the Unusual market, which easily spills over to power over the entire economy.

So yes, the person who managed to buy a lot of Unusuals prior to the market's stabilization will end up very wealthy, especially if the change in price discussions is implemented. The person who stocked up on stashes of gold prior to a market crash or the person who purchased massive amounts of Apple shares before they rose in price also ends up very wealthy. My point? These individuals stumbled upon a rare opportunity, rather by knowledge or luck, but we should not disrupt the entire economy in order to bring their wealth down. Instead, we should be trying to redistribute the balance of 'power' and wealth across the economy with competition. We should be seeing this from the perspective of the average buyer and the average seller, not from the perspective of an individual in the top 1% of wealth distribution.


"The top 1% of unusual owners own 14% of the unusual hat [market]."

You are talking as if TF2Outpost was a market only for sellers, that they hold all the power and that they're driving the prices up because nobody can stop them. That's absolutely wrong and you're forgetting the fact that buyers can put up trades too hence influencing the price of an item. Is everyone selling an item for "x"? Well that seems to be overpriced and I'll put up a trade paying "x - 2" for it. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, so soon the sellers will have to give in and lower their price. No need to butt in on their trade and bash their pricing for that.

Any item that people sell, chances are you can buy cheaper if you create your own trade. That's what keeps things ballanced, buyers and sellers both have a say in it. Buyers will want to buy low and sellers will want to sell high, the real value of an item is somewhere in the middle.

Originally posted by Champelliot:

Avoid using the word scam there. Scamming is a completely different scenario, referring to breach of contract.

To rebut, I'd like to provide an analogy. Let's say you've got two shops, one is selling a pair of shoes for €50, the other for €75. If you go into the shop selling them for €75, and ask them to reduce the price because the other shop is giving a better offer, odds are you'll achieve nothing.

If people take the time to shop around, and find the best deal, good for them, but that's their prerogative. No one is forcing them to do that. People have every right to sell an item for as much as they feel like. (Within reason, obviously asking for a Headcase for 2 scrap is ridiculous.) It's a free market, and on OP, it's generally kept that way.

If someone posts a trade where you disagree on the prices, it is not your position, nor your right to try and alter it. Just ignore the trade, keep calm andpraise the sun.carry on. They'll either lower their prices/raise their offer in eventuality to actually receive offers, or just leave entirely, where the problem solves itself.


That's just my take on it, anyway.

Another difference with the example you are talking about is the difference between the shoe shop and TF2. TF2 is not designed for people to set up shops and sell their stuff. There is not a set price for an object in tf2, but just a general price in which people agree to sell their items for. In order for the buyer to not be dominated by the seller, you should be able to challenge their prices. Bartering and negotiating for items should be encouraged, and people who post I DO NOT WANT OFFERS I DO NOT WANT OFFERS are just being very ignorant of the fact that trading consists of haggling and talking about the price to ensure that both the buyer AND the seller can be satisfied with the outcome.

That's my take on it.

There isn't a set price in a shoe shop either. Designer shoes and regular run-of-the-mill shoes probably have the same production costs, only one's got a logo on it. But, there is massive mark up on one, and not on the other.

Originally posted by norby89:

You are talking as if TF2Outpost was a market only for sellers, that they hold all the power and that they're driving the prices up because nobody can stop them. That's absolutely wrong and you're forgetting the fact that buyers can put up trades too hence influencing the price of an item. Is everyone selling an item for "x"? Well that seems to be overpriced and I'll put up a trade paying "x - 2" for it. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, so soon the sellers will have to give in and lower their price. No need to butt in on their trade and bash their pricing for that.

Any item that people sell, chances are you can buy cheaper if you create your own trade. That's what keeps things ballanced, buyers and sellers both have a say in it. Buyers will want to buy low and sellers will want to sell high, the real value of an item is somewhere in the middle.

That's essentially what I'm saying. Supply and Demand. Both buyers AND sellers influence the price, and the price is set at the equilibrium (basically the price that compromises for both buyers and sellers if you don't study market theory). However, the problem with people not "butting in and bashing their prices" is that one party will have to give in. You are assuming that the sellers behave like their real-life counterparts, who do market research and set their prices BASED ON the buyers' demand (value of item) and the prices of other sellers. However over 99% of the trades on Outpost are not like that and you can see this for yourself.

The point that I'm trying to make is that it is terribly inefficient for the market to have to wait for sellers to lower their price, assuming they do at all, and not the buyers having to raise their initial price. Any inefficiency in the market almost directly translates to increased prices in general and lower purchasing power for buyers, and well as stagnant growth in terms of new buyers/sellers entering the market.

In short: Supply and Demand only works if competition is encouraged. When competition is discouraged, the market becomes very inefficient and is wasting resources.

And some napkin math shows that a generic craft hat is around 27 weapons, which translates to about 27 hours playtime logged over the course of two weeks (due to item drop cap). This is assuming that you play solely for the sake of item drops, which is very unrealistic at best. Nonetheless, spending almost 2 hours every day for two weeks and only earning enough for one craft hat seems very inefficient to me. You're better off spending just one hour doing chores or working a job and earning enough to buy several keys worth of craft hats. The point that I'm trying to make is that despite its rather large playerbase, the market economy (of craft hats and weapons, at least - not going to delve into unusuals) is terribly terribly inefficient. This means that increased purchasing power for buyers and increased profits for sellers are essentially being "lost" to the system.

Like I've mentioned before, there is a reason that the world's largest economies all are (or are transitioning into) a competition-based market.