Originally posted by Toughsox:

-snip-

Fair enough. I will continue thinking of new ideas to improve Outpost and trading in general but until then, have a nice day.

Thanks for your time and explanations.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

I wish to hear your opinion on what was literally, an appeal I just handled not 2 minutes ago. Names will not be used but, the person readily admitted both when he was banned, and in his current appeal, that he knew ahead of time that the person was a marked scammer but....he really wanted the unusual and effect that the scammer had so, we knowingly went ahead with the trade. One of the items in the trade happened to be a Golden Pan, so we are clearly over a value of $2000.

Sorry for the late reply, I completely forgot.

I'd reject his appeal simply because he could've gotten a golden pan from someone else but instead he chose to trade with a scammer.

If the items that were traded were 1 of 1 in the world then I'd probably accept his appeal. Why should we punish fans of the game because there are scammers in the community.

Another thing I would look into would be the history of the scammer :

If the item traded was a scammed item and is NOT 1 of 1 in the world, reject.

If the item traded was not a scammed item and not 1 of 1 in the world, I'd look at the reason the scammer got marked. If the scammer got marked for petty scams like running away from a very low value spycrab, I'd accept the trader's appeal.

If the scammer was marked more than 2 years ago with only one report and no other -rep anywhere or any known alts in the time during the last 2 years, I'd accept the trader's appeal because this scammer is no longer a nuisance to the community.

I know that my judgement probably isn't the best but this is me thinking quick here. Of course these ideas needs to be fine tuned too be useful at all.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

The whole idea of being given a temp ban is so that you ARE made aware that there are rules and things to look for. The smart ones and the ones that are willing to trade fairly are the ones that don't get banned again.

By this argument you are stating that traders like LT Scout and Frost aren’t the smart ones as they have made mistakes even after given warnings. But you see, that’s not the case because humans make mistakes regardless of how smart he/she is. In fact for many of these traders, their margin of error is so small that in the real world they would be forgiven for their mistakes.
If you want to ban people for trading with scammers knowingly, by all means, go ahead. What I disagree is banning those who have good intentions but made honest mistakes.
I do not wish to see Outpost turn a blind eye on trading with scammers and scammer alts. What I wish to see is a change in the method Outpost deals with people who had traded with scammers and scammer alts.
As I said in my previous post, make a full investigation on the matter to determine if said person is trading knowingly or unknowingly. I do not see a reason to ban someone who made an honest mistake.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Now go to the other aspect, the scamming victim. Did anyone care they got scammed? Did anyone do anything to help them learn from falling prey to the scammers?

I do not see any relevance of this to our discussion.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Remember what a scammer is and what he is dealing with...STOLEN ITEMS.

As stated above, why would you ban someone for not knowing that he/she has traded a stolen item.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

So, at what point should anyone be allowed or how many chances should a person be given when they are dealing with these stolen items?

"How many chances" implies that there is a number yes? This is a very bad system as it is truly unfair for traders. There are so many traders ranging from trading daily to trading once every few months. If you ban someone who did a hundred thousand trades for making a mistake thrice (margin of error = .003%) would be unfair if you’re banning someone who did a hundred trades and made three mistakes (margin of error = 3%). Even in a the real world, you would be applauded for having a margin of error of 0.003% so in such a caring community why should someone with such a low error margin be prosecuted?

I am not implying that percentages should be used too. It is still possible to abuse such a system. Which is why I would urge the admins to go with a case to case investigation before banning the trader. Clarify and confirm that the trader did the trade knowing that the other person is a scammer before banning the trader rather than banning him for making a mistake. I said it before and I’ll say it again. Policing the community is not beneficial for the good guys as scammers will find ways to sell their load anyways. You(Outpost) are harming more good people than bad and that is NOT OKAY.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

If it is too hard to see someone selling 10 unusuals, with a 2 week old Steam Account, and zero hours in any game.....if you or anyone wants to somehow justify that, then by all means, I am more than willing to listen.

If your baby brother accidentally damaged your computer, would you punish or educate him?

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Am I simplifying this response, yes, as there are too many details that can be added to or subtracted from this equation, but that is the general type of reports we deal with, and thats generally the reasons behind many of the people banned on Outpost.

Add me and I am happy to debate with you. All I want is for a better more forgiving community.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

And believe me when I tell you, 9 out of 10 people that are banned for this reason, could care less as they simply make new alt accounts and continue to feed the scammers and help them launder their stolen items.

By all means, ban them. But make sure you(Outpost) can prove that these people did launder before banning them. It is only fair to give everyone a fair trial.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Outpost has LONG been dealing with scammers and scammer alts trading on our site and we do take great pride in doing what we can to slow them down whenever possible, albeit, it is a never ending job.

This does not justify maintaining outdated rules.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Mind you, while I may be an Admin here, I will state I am speaking my mind and NOT as an official response to Outpost or their rules. Just from my personal experience here. Should our rules change, then by all means we will honor and enforce them to the best of our ability. Until those rules change though, trading with scammers has never been allowed, NOR do the policy changes of SteamRep reflect anywhere that they allow or condone trading with scammers/.scammer alts either. The fact that they are no longer tagging for people that trade with them does NOT mean they said it was ok.

It is not okay to trade with scammers. But it is also not okay to ban people for making honest mistakes.

Originally posted by Toughsox:

-snip-

Generally the way outpost bans people for trading with scammers/scammer alts.

A number of people I know who accidentally traded with scammer alts were banned from the site because it is against the rules but they are good people who made mistakes(I know this sounds bias but they are good people). I believe that handling trading with scammer alts should be treated the other around.

For example, instead of banning people who traded with scammer alts multiple times and then make them appeal but instead ban them only after the staff(or anyone in-charge) can prove that they have been trading with these scammers for the sake of profit.

Many good people has lost their chance to be part of the trading community simply because they made mistakes and this rule is very off putting for people who intend on joining this community.

Outpost has been too strict when it comes to traders making mistakes and since they are humans too.

One example, I traded once with a scammer alt by accident and didn't realise that he was a scammer alt until Sirploko gave me a 2 week ban. Now, I didn't trade with a scammer alt for the sake of profit but it was a genuine mistake on my end. It would be nice if the case got investigated before banning me for the sake of trading with a scammer alt.

I understand the reason that rule was implemented in the first place to curb scammers from being able to make money off their dirty methods but this has actually convicted more good people than it should have.

Banning these traders who made mistakes actually leave the newer traders more vulnerable to scammers and such because experienced traders are getting banned for accidental mistakes they have done. For me, I always help out new traders when it comes to trading and guide them to avoid making mistakes but if I were to get a Perma-ban for accidentally trading with a scammer, I wouldn't be as involved in this community and therefore not be able to guide these newer traders and risk these new traders to make the mistakes I did.

I know the admins mean well to the community but I personally think being very sensitive when it comes to banning traders is doing way more harm than it does good.

Maybe making a mandatory mini-seminar for users of the site to teach them safe ways of trading rather than making them learn only after they get their first ban would be more effective and less damaging to people who made genuine mistakes.

Correct me if I am wrong but weren't TF2 communities were created to help out those that needs help rather than police them.

If the things I suggested are too much for the staff to handle, maybe pay them if you aren't or pay them more. Not everyone has the luxury of spending hours a day with their own resources dealing with reports and such. There are ways to separate those who genuinely wants to help the community and those who only do it for the money(if that is the reason) and still pay your staff well enough for them to be able to spend time and effort into the cause of cleaning up the site.

TL;DR Investigate a trade with scammer alts to confirm if it was for profit before banning the trader and setup a better education system for new traders rather them letting them learn the hard way. Remember, traders are humans too, and humans make mistakes. Give your staff some incentive to work.

Originally posted by Nooge:

We've been discussing internally these policy changes since they were first announced. Rule changes will come in due time.

That's great news! Hope to see some changes in the near future. Keep up the good work.

As we all know, SteamRep has released new Policies for trading recently.
http://forums.steamrep.com/threads/steamrep-policy-changes-for-2016.119548/

I believe it is also time for TF2Outpost to move forward in time with SteamRep and the rest of the community.

There are certain things that are outdated in the trading scene as highlighted by SteamRep and I would like to see Outpost change their site rules to better suit our the current community rather than continue using their current rules.

have a good day everybody!

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Then thats fine. We have had some people put a scrap on the left and an unusual on the right for the sole purpose of trying to trade up for an unusual on the site. That type of trade is not allowed. But if you are trading normal stuff for normal stuff then, have at ot =)

Thanks so much for your help, have a nice day. :)

Originally posted by Toughsox:

Also be aware, we do not allow trades that build up to an unusual.
Number 7 - No trades that aren't trades. This rule includes any form of donations, services, asking for crates to unbox, troll trades, building up one weapon to an unusual, raffles, etc.

What do you mean trades that build up to an unusual? I'm planning on just doing normal trades(trying to make some profit of course).

Originally posted by Feesh-E:

Originally posted by MAJOR S>4 UNUS⇄:

Am I allowed to use my alt account on the site? If yes, what should I do so that I don't get banned. Thanks in advance

Yes, you are allowed to use your alternate account on the site and you won't get banned as long as you won't violate any of the rules [www.tf2outpost.com].

thanks

before anyone ask, no I'm not gonna post quickbuy threads. No I will not be getting premium. No I am not trying to manipulate the economy.