Steam Community :: Guide :: The Comprehensive "Newbies in Versus" Argument-in-a-Box!

Store Page

Left 4 Dead 2

All Discussions Screenshots Artwork Broadcasts Videos Workshop News Guides Reviews

Left 4 Dead 2 > Guides > Paladyne's Guides

143 ratings

The Comprehensive "Newbies in Versus" Argument-in-a-Box!

By Paladyne

The purpose of this "guide" is to compile all the commonly-encountered arguments regarding Versus into one place.

Award

Created by

Paladyne
Offline

Category: Game Modes, Multiplayer

Languages: English

Game Modes: Versus

Posted

Updated

25 Aug, 2017 @ 4:41pm

6 Feb, 2019 @ 8:39pm

3,592	Unique Visitors
118	Current Favorites

Guide Index

Overview

Introduction & FAQs

First Things First: What We Ought to be Aiming For

Second Things Second: How Did We Get Here?

"This community is so toxic!"

"WTF I got kicked for no reason!"

"I bought the game, I can play how I want!"

"Versus is for everyone, don't tell people what to do"

"You can't judge a player by their hours"

"It's just a game so it doesn't matter"

"This is a casual game."

"Vets should play with their friends if they want a competitive game."

How else are you supposed to learn how to play Infected?

"I play for fun:" The Four Dumbest Words in Video Games (1/2)

"I play for fun": The Four Dumbest Words in Videogames (2/2)

Conclusion!

Comments

Introduction & FAQs

Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride!

First off, this "guide" is not meant to teach you anything you didn't already know. It's simply a compilation of the same old arguments that keep cropping up whenever the topic of newbies in Versus/Scavenge comes up.

Second, there's really not much middle ground here. When told that "newbies don't belong in Versus," you probably fall into one of two camps:

You're either this guy:

Or you're this guy:

My goal (aside from saving some wear and tear on keyboards everywhere) is to try to get back a little bit of that middle ground, through reasoned discourse. Because we're all reasonable people, right?

FAQs:

Q: What do you mean by "middle ground?"
A: Well, both sides have a bit of a point: n00bs ruin VS games for the vets, and then vets turn salty and start abusing newbies. It sucks for everybody involved.

Q: Do you really expect anyone to read this?
A: Not really. It's just so I (or others) can link to it in the Discussions whenever another one of these threads pops up. It's a work in progress, so I'll probably polish the arguments and quote from it from time to time.

Q: !$&^# you buddy, you can't tell me how to play the game!!1!11!!!!42
A: I'm sorry, but you must phrase your response in the form of a question.

Q: OK FINE, who the %^&( are you to tell me how to play the game?!?!?!!!!*69
A: I've been a part of this community since Left 4 Dead 1 was still in Beta. I've seen every argument there is to be made several times. Note that I didn't invent any of the arguments presented, I've simply compiled them all into one place.

Q: I just checked your stats, you hardly even play Versus, and when you do you suck at it!!! What makes you qualified to tell anybody about Versus mode?!
A: I've never claimed to be an authority on Versus; quite the opposite. My favorite gameplay mode is Advanced Campaign, and I'm quite happy to stay there and avoid most of the ingame drama. But I do frequent the Discussions Forum and I've noticed a certain... theme... repeating every few days, year after year after year. Hence this thread "guide."

Q: Are you ever gonna get to the point?
A: Sure, how's right now grab you?

First Things First: What We Ought to be Aiming For

Before I commence with the foolishness (too late!), how about a little dose of wisdom to start us off, eh?

This has been said so many times in so many ways, but here I've chosen this as my example of what I consider to be the right mindset:

Originally posted by Stasis:
Welcome to Versus. A few more thousand hours in this game should desensitize you to a healthy, functional level. ^^

Once you've attained this level of immunity towards all shades of trash talking smack talking sh*t talking in matches aka "Cancer", be sure not to perpetuate the disease and accord new players in this community with the same level of humanity and respect you once demanded.

Please don't "pay it forward" with the same amount of cancer you were once given.

Originally posted by Derelicthor:
1st, I don't have any problem with low hour players or private profile users, but I don't hesitate a single second in kicking anyone who makes 3-4 obvious mistakes or looks/plays like a complete n00b. From a "toxic community" I'm one of the less toxic ones I guess.

2nd, if you get kicked in every match MAYBE, just maybe, you're doing something wrong.

If you're doing something wrong you have 2 options, play in lower difficulties until you learn the game mechanics well enough that you don't make obvious mistakes, or find a group of people to play with.

Or to put it simply, please obey The Silver Rule of "Do not do unto others what you would not want done unto you."

If you're new to the game, please stay out of the competitive modes until you have mastered playing Survivor. You have no business learning how to play Survivor on seven other peoples' time.
If you're a vet... look, I know it's hard sometimes, but try to have a bit more patience. Some of the newbs are not n00bs, meaning that they are willing to listen, but you need to give them the chance to listen in the first place. Easier said than done, I know, but please try.

Second Things Second: How Did We Get Here?

1) Let's start with the fact that "toxicity" is (unfortunately) a part of online gaming culture as a whole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt9GwmOWoqo&t=78s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9A8VJBh_Yc Seriously, please take the 15 minutes or so to watch those. Extra Credits is so good.

2) But specifically, L4D's biggest culprit by far is the total lack of a stat-based matchmaking system:

It wouldn't be much of an issue if newbies got matched up with newbies, and vets matched up with vets. The trouble is when you start mixing the two groups, because there's two different sets of expectations; the vets want high-level play and the newbies just want a fun, casual romp and to see what playing the Infected is like.

3) You can also expand this further into the general lack of metagame direction, period. There are no popup warnings or anything to let the new player know what they're about to wade into, and other titles (I'm thinking mainly of the Call of Duty series) don't require much prerequisite knowledge before entering a multiplayer match, so I can see why a new player might assume that "hey, I've played FPSs' before" and stumble into something they are not prepared for.

4) There's also the inherent tension created when you have a competitive mode within a heavily teamwork dependent game. Although I don't condone it, I can understand why a vet would want to kick a player after missing the opportunity for a deathcharge on Dead Center 1; It's a short map, and the Infected team will only get a few chances to spawn, so that early charger is valuable. To see that opportunity wasted because the player isn't skilled enough to pull it off or worse yet, doesn't even know the opportunity exists, is frustrating.

5) Even the most patient Vets will eventually grow frustrated at dealing with the same basic mistakes. Even the tiny amount of time it takes to type "u r not rdy 4 vs" during or before a kickvote can be enough to allow a cunning player a free pounce or pull, so while I (almost always) recommend always giving a justification for a kick, I can see why after the 500th time, somebody would stop.

...And for #6, I'd like to tell you a little story about a guy we'll call Bob:

Bob is an adult, with a job and a couple of kids, like so many others his age. Between his job, taking care of the kids, and his daily tasks and housework he only has about an hour of "fun time." And because this game rocks, he often chooses to play it after a long day.

Now, because he's been playing the game on and off for the last eight years he's gotten pretty good at it, and likes to play Versus rather than Campaign. Some nights he's able to get in a really close, good game with scores varying by a few hundred points, sometimes less. Those are the good nights, and they're pretty satisfying.
And then there are the bad nights. Last night was a bad night for Bob. He was playing No Mercy for the last 40 minutes with (and against) a pretty good team. Lots of high damage pounces, coordinated smokes and grabs, impressive Survivor rushes, a couple great tank wipes, and so on. He doesn't mind getting wiped when he knows the other team earned it. The teams were within a hundred points of each other going into the final chapter.

But unfortunately for Bob in the saferoom on No Mercy 5, one of his teammates disconnected, and was quickly replaced by.... The Newbie. He insisted on checking all the side rooms of the hallway, and had to be freed from a hunter who saw an opportunity to pounce him while he was out of sight of the team. This split up the team and while one of Bob's teammates was doubling back to save The Newbie, a smoker in the elevator shaft pulled Bob toward the open doors just a second before a charger nailed his teammate and sent all three of them plummeting to their collective deaths. Not surprisingly, the enemy team easily wiped out the two remaining Survivors on their next spawn cycle.

When asked why he went off into the side rooms instead of sticking with the team, The Newbie replied that he was looking for a pipebomb because they were his favorite grenade. Bob then pointed out that A), The Newbie already had a molotov, and B) There were no item spawns in the side rooms anyway in this version of NM5. The Newbie whined that "well, I didn't know that!" and was promptly kickvoted, but by now the damage had been done.

All seven of the remaining players complained that they felt cheated, that they all wanted to see how the game was going to come out, and now couldn't because The Newbie had robbed them of their chance. The other team agreed to intentionally wipe at the elevator shaft to try for a fair outcome, but everyone knew it was a poor substitution for the ending they had hoped for. Bob thanked the other players and quit the game, but felt worse than when he had started. He had already had a tough day and this was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Previously he had tried to be fair about giving Newbies a chance, or at least giving them a reason for the kickvote so they knew why they were being voted out, but this scene had been repeated far too often lately. "♥♥♥♥ 'em," he thought, and vowed that from now on, he'd be checking hours and kickvoting at the first sign of incompetence, rather than having another day's worth of playtime get ruined by yet another player who had no business being there in the first place.

TL;DR: Why is Bob "salty?" Because his precious hour of play time matters to him, and having to deal with one too many newbies in a competitive mode they're not ready for has stripped away his politeness and compassion for them.

This is why there are so many complaints about the "toxic community." And on that note...

"This community is so toxic!"

Originally posted by Please don't kill me!!:
Originally posted by Smexy Flerxn™:
"Is it really my fault that I'm bad?" "No, it's everyone else's fault, obviously. They're all toxic."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMqZ2PPOLik

Look, the whole "toxic community" thing boils down to a few simple points:

There is no ranked matchmaking to group players of similar skill levels together...
...which means players who have little or no experience are playing with or against players who, in some cases, have been playing the game almost literally every day for the last eight years...
...which in turn is a recipe for nobody having any fun. No matter which side of a 3000 to 600 game you're on, it sucks.
This is a cooperative game at its core. That means your actions affect your teammates, and vice versa. And nobody likes getting hosed because of somebody else's mistakes.
Because it is a competitive mode, it's an inappropriate place to be learning how to play the game. That's what Singleplayer/Normal Campaign is for.
Some newbies just don't know any better, get abused, and get turned off to this great game.
Some just don't care about anybody else's experience, and abuse others just by choosing to play a co-op game (poorly) in the first place.
Some vets are sick and tired of inexperienced players ruining their competitive game and lash out at anyone who shows the slightest bit of inexperience because they're frustrated as ♥♥♥♥ with the whole situation.
And finally, the problem is compounded by the presence of trolls ingame and on the forum who take delight in stirring the turd.

More on all of that in a bit.

"WTF I got kicked for no reason!"

Example Threads:

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/864972620827882808/
(Kicking for no reason.)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/35220315680155792/
(A Few Tips So You Won't Get Kicked (Stop Crying)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/2579854400755471687/
(About pros and veterans who votekick for minor mistakes.)

This shares a huge amount of overlap with the "toxic community!" threads, but I felt it needed its own section because it's such an important point:

1) It's never just one mistake, and...
2) Joining Versus before you were ready was probably your first mistake in and of itself.

It's never for no reason whatsoever.

Originally posted by suika:
If you got kicked and you don't know why, that is exactly the reason why.

You don't even know what you did wrong, and are likely to repeat that mistake because of that. In a competive mode like Versus this isn't acceptable for your team if they want to win.

And for a lot of people, they are playing Versus to win. They want a close, competitive game, and when you have someone who doesn't know a damn thing on either team it kills any chance for this type of game.

There is no time to tell people what they did wrong. When you need to kick someone you need to kick them -NOW-, especially since a lot of people WILL start greifing if they see a kick vote against them.

Originally posted by Rullisi:
Someone is getting annoyed of you in a game. Decides to vote whether the 2 other players agree to kick you as well. All 3 of your teammates agree to exchange you for a bot.

-> Goes into discussion forum to complain about those 3 players being annoying.

There was a reason that the majority wanted you gone, even if you didn't know what it was. Some common ones include:

You have low hours played
You have a private profile (because it blocks the vetting process)
You're AFK for any period of time (don't keep the other players waiting!)
You don't know the map
You don't have a grasp of the fundamentals or basics
You don't communicate
You don't shut up so others can communicate
You don't listen
You don't follow directions
You go off on your own (either as Survivor as or Infected)
You're shopping for items and therefore slowing down the team, giving the Infected more spawns
You're being kicked to make room for a friend. Not your fault, sorry buddy.

Note that all but the last are your fault in one way or another, and are all easily correctable.

So you ought to treat a kickvote as a gentle reminder that some behavior immediately preceding the kickvote needs correction, and try to determine what that behavior was.

Also, very often it's that second-to-last reason. Versus has its own pace, much faster than the average pace of a Campaign, and for good reason; the Special Infected are only medium-risk in Campaign, but in Versus they're (theoretically) smart and work together so they're almost 100% of the risk. Therefore it makes more sense to kill the enemy players and then RUN to cover as much distance as possible while spawns are down so they get fewer chances to brutally murder you. If you "shop" too much for pills and pipebombs you are lagging behind, which slows down the team and/or separates you from the rest of the team, both of which dramatically increase the risk to your teammates. The extra pipe and pills aren't worth it. This is something vets know but newbies do not, and is one of the major fault lines in Versus.

This is one of those times when I think somebody else said it perfectly, so allow me to quote them:

Originally posted by Mommy:
You didn't get kicked for "one minor mistake". It's never one mistake. You made a series of errors leading up to that, which either got your team fed up with carrying you, or you played in a manner that suggested that you wouldn't be receptive to learning for mistakes.

Think about this scenario. Someone joins the game and keeps spawning too late and too far away. Their team tells them to spawn with them repeatedly, and tells them how to spawn closer, but they don't give any indication that they read this in chat, and continue ruining hits. They somehow get tank and are afk for 10 seconds with tank, which gets them lit, and then their team kicks them. Somehow this person magically becomes able to communicate, which they do so by yelling at their team for kicking them for "one minor mistake" since they were only afk for a few seconds and calling them toxic ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, stupid ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, etc. They didn't get kicked for one minor mistake, they got kicked for continuing to ♥♥♥♥ up.

Or maybe a faster kick. Someone joins and stands there for several seconds, while their teammates stop progressing forward to wait until they respond. They look around slowly and make erratic movements, they are going very slow and not following their teammates, and they aren't shoving common off themselves but shooting their feet and their teammates. An attack comes and someone gets hunted right next to them, and they don't m2 the hunter off at all, and their aim is bad enough that they don't shoot him until their teammate is half dead. They get kicked in a few seconds, and they claim that the one single mistake they did of not m2ing the hunter means that they got kicked by toxic elitists who are ruining the community.

Not staying with the group, attacking alone, not showing basic game knowledge, not clearing teammates, pre spawning, not responding to chat, friendly fire, spray and pray, not shooting CI off teammates, not listening to basic directions, there are a ton of extremely common and extremely annoying errors that people make that can completely ruin a game. One person is hunted, one person is smoked, and this teammate fails to spit on the charged person and the person who got knocked down next to them and is in a corner- congratulations, you just ruined a great attack that could have wiped the other team. Or you shoot your teammates in expert, so now a leisurely game is a struggle to power through lack of health items, aggravated by your constant waste, and you get to restart multiple times.

All of these things have happened multiple times. I wouldn't be able to count how often I get called a stupid fat ♥♥♥♥♥ because I called a kick vote on someone who is continually ruining the game, or how many people in this game refuse to read the chat up until they type "what did i do" or "??" when they get kicked.

Play campaign easy until you can learn the basic tips like staying together, following your teammates, and learning to communicate. That or uninstall. People with "2,152 hours" have no interest in dealing with a genuinely toxic teammate, and that's you, who come to the forums to cry about it instead of actually learning how to play a casual vampire shooter.

or if you'd like something shorter:

Originally posted by Peshmelba:
The 5 stages of getting kicked
Denial
They kicked me for no reasons! My team was noob!
Anger
MUH THOXICC COMMUNITY REEEEEEE
Bargaining
If all the toxics can leave i'd leave a good rating on the game page
Depression
I'll just make a thread about getting kicked in a video game so random people on the internet will help me find solace
Acceptance
Maybe I was actually bad enough for 3 other people to agree on playing without me. I shall not take it personnally and understand that it will happens again until I have progressed enough in this game to meet the average skill requiered for the difficulty I'm playing on.

"I bought the game, I can play how I want!"

(This is the ingame example of that turd stirring I just mentioned.)

Example thread:
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/1484358860956452760/
(Stop kicking people for not doing what you say)

Hey, guess what? So did everybody else!

This means the people you're playing with DO have the right to vote you off the island if your idea of "fun" starts to infringe on everybody else's. Keep it up and you'll end up on enough people's block lists that you'll start to have trouble finding games you're allowed to join.

It's very simple: Apply the Silver Rule of "Don't do unto others what you would not want done unto you."

"Versus is for everyone, don't tell people what to do"

(This is the Discussions version of the aforementioned turd stirring, used by veteran trolls.)

Thread Examples:

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/1471967615856324461/
(Petition to lock Versus mode....)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/492379439667533151/#c492379439667554751
(Public Service Announcement for all you new players!)

It is unfortunate but true that the game itself does not limit players in which modes they can join based on their level of experience. This means that newer players need to recognize that there are certain modes which, while not technically off-limits, they are not ready for. Expert difficulty is an obvious one, which we've probably all discovered at some point. But Versus is far harder than Expert Realism without appearing so at first blush. I believe that having earned Still Something to Prove and/or The Real Deal are good prerequisites for entry to Versus mode.

Versus is not for everyone, by definition. It is a competitive mode. The cost of entry is being able to compete.

"You can't judge a player by their hours"

Example Threads:

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/458604254424842818/
(u cant just judge someone playability by the hours they play.... -_-)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/558752451114855926/
(how is it that people under 200 hours are called noobs??)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/540743757440501333/#c540743757453411475
(Why are they banned me?)

I'll quote Restless here:

Originally posted by Restless:
Originally posted by Aiden Pearce:
well i hate to break it to you (not really) but not everyone sucks just cuz they didnt play the game on release
Yes, just because you didn't play during release does not mean you are a bad player now. That is not what I am saying at all.

When a game is first released, the playing field is more or less even. Everybody "sucks", there is little to no literature/media content to teach players, and the metagame is in its infancy.

5 8 years later, the standards have been raised. There are highly experienced players and there are still new players, as well as everyone in between. There are mounds of research to be read and videos to be watched, and the metagame has evolved to include an assortment of tactics, all of which need to be learned in order to catch up to the crowd.

In an absolute sense, it's true that hours do not directly translate into experience. I've seen 300 hour players who are better than 1300 hour players. Past the 100/300/500/1000 hour mark, the number of hours played becomes less and less useful for gauging player quality.

However, hours do generally reflect a player's level of experience, and for a lobby leader they're useful as a simple shorthand for actual player experience when determining who can probably pull their weight and who can't. It is unlikely that a 50 hour player knows, for example, that you can defeat a smoker pull attempt by cutting the tongue at just the right moment with a bladed weapon. And it's little things like that that make a big difference in a Versus game!

Now all that being said, your global stats do accurately reflect how good a player you are, because they're collected over the lifetime of your profile. For example, here is a 100% real comparison of my own stats against another player who will go unnamed:

Stat

Paladyne

Anonymous

Total Playtime:

1432h 35m 29s

1447h 40m 21s

Achievements Earned:

70 of 70

69 of 70

Games Played:

2,556

1,140

Finales Survived:

1,813 (70.93%)

552 (48.42%)

Infected Killed:

629,996

401,198

Avg Infected Killed Per Hour:

435.18

280.05

Avg Pills Used Per Game:

1.65

1.22

Avg Pills Shared w/Team:

1.48

0.14

Avg Adrenaline Used Per Game:

0.96

0.43

Avg Adrenaline Shared w/Team:

0.70

0.05

Avg Kits Used Per Game:

1.77

0.99

Avg Kits Shared w/Team:

1.82

0.19

Avg Defibrillators Used Per Game:

0.21

0.07

Avg Teammates Revived:

1.70

0.56

Avg # Times Revived by Teammate:

1.44

1.00

Most Teammates Protected:

127 (on Advanced)

126 (on Normal)

Avg Teammates Protected:

10.49

3.65

Avg # Times Protected by Teammate:

6.77

6.62

Most Damage to Teammates:

1,176 (on Expert)

7,139 (on Expert)

Avg Damage to Teammates:

39.00

52.00

So as you can see, some of our stats are extremely close as of the time of this writing, including hours actually played. But one of us has a much better grasp of the core mechanic of the game; namely, take care of your team!

Who would you rather have on your team?

So yes, hours aren't everything. But in all fairness, most new players' "average" stats look an awful lot like our anonymous player's stats, because they're not good Survivors... yet.

Some players have recommended getting around the "low hours = kick" issue by setting your profile to private. And in response, I've seen vets who will kick players with private profiles in their lobby because it blocks their vetting process. Your milage may vary.

But if your stats look like Mr. Anon here, please don't hide behind the "low hours" excuse. You're probably getting kicked because you're a bad teammate.

"It's just a game so it doesn't matter"

Example threads:

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/1473095331495572945/
(Man, why do people get so worked up over a video game?)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/540744936216880295/
(Why you people taking this game to seriously?)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/541907867791461627/#c541907867791492987
(Versus unplayable)

It matters because nobody likes it when somebody else spoils their fun. Remember Bob? Bob values his leisure time, and feels disrespected when others don't.

Any time you hear somebody say "it's just ___" notice that they're totally discounting any value that thing has. It's insulting. If it's "just a game" then why are you even playing it?

Because you play it to have fun... just like everyone else playing. So really this line is just used to try to excuse poor behavior, nothing else.

Stop justifying it; your enjoyment is not more important than anyone else's.

"This is a casual game."

Example Threads:

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/2579854400755503905/?ctp=2#c2579854400756721203
(Should I permanently delete this and L4D1 from my account)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/616187839207951787/
(Why are Versus/Scavange players so tryhard?)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/611696927920280755/
(Can't Play Multiplayer Cuz Everyone's A Competitive ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/135513901705469070/
(It's sad how people are so low skilled to the point that they go to L4D2 and take it competitively)

L4D2 is a "Casual" game? Says who? Is there some secret council out there that determines which games are "casual" and which are "hardcore?" What sort of criteria do they use to advance their nefarious agenda? The whole thing is ridiculous.

I'll just quote somebody else who said it better (and briefer!) than I possibly could:

Originally posted by Lesbian Pachimari:
Versus mode is competitive. No matter how hard someone tries to denegrate it, and twist it, it *IS* competitive. Someone's unwillingness to acknowledge l4d versus as competitive doesnt magically stop it from being competitive. You don't have to be a competitive person, but it *is* a competitive gamemode whether you like it or not.

Again, just another weak attempt to denigrate somebody else's enjoyment of the game in order to feel superior. Don't be that guy.

"Vets should play with their friends if they want a competitive game."

Once again, Versus mode is competitive by definition.

So why should the vets be the ones to self-segregate, rather than the newbies? I'm fine with you choosing to learn the game in Versus (although I think it's unwise), as long as you're not inflicting your learning curve on other unwilling participants.

Also, it's hard rounding up enough friends for a match. I have a few hundred players in my Friendslist (nearly all from L4D), and I usually only have about 3 friends playing L4D at any given time. To round up 4 more from outside the game takes some scheduling.

And finally, there's a certain enjoyment in not knowing who you're going to get on your team (or as an opponent, for that matter). Getting a good pubber in your game is kinda like hearing your favorite song on the radio; it's just that much better in that you weren't expecting it. Newbies get that all the time, but as a vet it's an uncommon (but welcome) experience.

Originally posted by Paladyne:
Originally posted by Sharples:
Originally posted by Батюшка:
We need to come up with some amateur L4D2 versus group where you can actually play and learn the game before people kick you for not knowing how to play.:cozyskyrimvr:
Campaign is a great group, you should join it.
This is the best reply in the history of Discussions. Congratulations, you just won the internet.

How else are you supposed to learn how to play Infected?

Example Thread:

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/1473095331501757326/#c1473095331502208017
(Turned off from buying this due to people kicking new players)

Originally posted by HK-47:
1. To hammer a nail you need knowledge of hammer, nail, surface types, how to hold hammer, how to hold nail, how to hit with hammer.

2. To actually learn a skill of hammering a nail you need to practice with a real hammer... BUT YOU SHOULD PRACTICE BY YOURSELF -- YOU SHOULD NOT ASK OTHER PEOPLE TO HOLD THE FRACKING NAIL WHILE YOU KEEP HITTING THEIR FINGERS.

3. YOU CAN'T GAIN SKILL WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE. IN ANYTHING IN LIFE, NOT JUST GAMES. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.

I flipping love that quote, because it hits the nail right on the head (pun obviously intended).

There are several ways to gain experience outside of a Versus pub:

Search for a guide on how to play Singleplayer Versus. Oh wait, I just did that for you: https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=156364036
Download a hunter training map. https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=132980103
Install the Rayman Mutation Mod. https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=121070254
Grab a friend or two and make a Friends-Only game.
Join a newbie-friendly group that encourages learning how to play as Infected in a less competitive, more newbie-friendly atmosphere.
(I happen to like this group, but there are many others like it.)
Join a hentai rape server... but be aware that there are some substantial differences, and you may pick up some bad habits as a result.
Watch some YouTube videos to see what's possible and reduce your learning curve.

There's probably a lot of other possibilities, and alternatives to the stuff I linked, but you get the point. Versus pubs are almost certainly the worst environment to learn how to play the game; better to wait until you more or less already know what you're doing.

Or as Restless said:

Originally posted by Restless:
You cannot teach someone who does not want to be taught. The people in public games do not want to be taught, they just want to smash buttons and watch body parts fly across their screen. The people that DO want to be taught are already reading guides and watching videos, asking questions and responding to teammates, so they don't have nearly as big of an issue with votekicks, because it doesn't happen as often to them.

Improving at the game is nobody's responsibility but your own. Veterans are not here to teach you the game, they are here to play the game. There is already plenty of teaching material available out there, published by the patient veterans with a passion for helping others.

And lastly, many veterans want the thin-skinned casual players to quit. The community's population has survived and thrived despite its "cancerous community" and complete lack of developer support, and it has survived due to votekick. Either step up to the standards established by the community, or leave and never fully enjoy a product that you paid for. The choice is up to you, and the community, veteran or otherwise, does not care.

"I play for fun:" The Four Dumbest Words in Video Games (1/2)

Reposted here because learntocounter.com is down, or I'd simply link it.

I Play For Fun: The Four Dumbest Words in Video Games
Posted on February 25, 2012 by Michael Lowell
Note: This entry was significantly edited for word choice, structure, and length in May of 2015. The arguments remain unchanged.

Let’s return to the group of scrubs. They don’t know the first thing about all the depth I’ve been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more “fun.” Superficially, their argument does at least look valid, since often their games will be more “wet and wild” than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of this “fun” on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his every move, even his every counter.

David Sirlin, “Introducing…the Scrub”*

Humans have a biological urge to compete and win. It doesn’t matter whether it’s face-to-face or in a videogame. Thus, “I play for fun” was born, the idea that experts are not enjoying themselves when they are doing everything they can to win, and we were all dumber for hearing it. If you’re using the phrase, stop ♥♥♥♥ing doing it.

I mean, what does “I play for fun” even mean? Who doesn’t play videogames for fun? Videogame testers? Professional gamers? Game reviewers? Know what they all have in common? Their genuine passion and interest in games has turned into a job. Most people don’t fall under that category, and most everyone plays videogames because they’re fun, because if they weren’t, those players would simply spend their time doing something else. Realistically, the only debate is how much fun one is having. And I would propose the player that seeks to learn every strategy and every nuance is probably having more fun than a pair of sloppy players who “play for fun”.

So what’s going on here? You see, the “I play for fun” crowd doesn’t care much for videogames. But hey, Call of Duty is worth ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ around in. They grind out a couple of hours each week, but that’s all they can handle. Any more Call of Duty, and Call of Duty becomes boring. During this time, the “play for fun” crowd discovers that certain players operate on another plane of existence. They’re one-man armies, the masters and commanders of their virtual world, and these players absolutely stomp the♥♥♥♥♥♥out of the weaker players. But instead of accepting the investment of time and energy necessary to overcome the experts, the “play for fun” crowd makes excuses. They take their short play sessions and project upon the experience of the experts, and conclude that “The experts must be bored out of their mind. They’re playing forty hours a week? They must have a twitch in their brain. They must have no life. They can’t possibly be playing for for fun. Therefore, I am playing for fun. And I need to make sure everyone knows that.”

Yup, it’s true! A group of players who play the game at a superficial level have concluded that they are having more fun than the experts, who can apply their skill and knowledge to situations that the “I play for fun” crowd has never engaged or considered. Now, in a way, journalism has allowed this to fester. They have beaten the idea of “time equals skill” into the ground since the late seventies, when 1979’s Asteroids introduced the high score into the vernacular. For the best players of that time period, those “high scores” were not a test of proficiency, but endurance.* And while endurance is a skill worth testing, it created a perception that the best videogame players are the best simply because they play more than anyone else.

And to compound the matter, the last decade of game development that has hijacked the stat-based systems in Japanese Role-Playing Games and converted them into award and unlock systems for multiplayer games. Call of Duty now rewards the player for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ his pants X number of times. Every kill, every maneuver, every time you♥♥♥♥♥♥your pants, you now get experience points that will go towards unlocking the game’s content. And just like the JRPGs, “time played” is the most significant factor in unlocking that content. The result is that we have created multiplayer games akin to an organized basketball league where you must win twenty-five games before you’re allowed to shoot three-pointers.

That’s how you end up with “I play for fun”, which is code for “If I played this as much as you do, I’d kick your♥♥♥♥♥” And that’s a slap in the face. Yeah, it’s fun to mock the fans of simplistic games like League of Legends, but the♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥matches over what videogames take skill are purely relative. You don’t get to be the best at any videogame unless you bring something to the table. That goes for Call of Duty, ♥♥♥♥♥♥ games like Angry Birds, niche genres like shoot ’em ups, and even the limited competition on web sites like TwinGalaxies, where as few as half-a-dozen people may be fighting for the world record high score in a game that history long passed by. Those players do something, they do it well, and it is the confluence of time and natural talent that makes for the best of them.

So when somebody says “I play for fun”, I hear somebody making excuses. I hear somebody who can’t deal with the most neutral of all neutral parties—a computer program doing nothing more than executing the instructions it was given—saying the player isn’t doing very well. And that’s where videogames teach a valuable life lesson. Pac-Man doesn’t give you an extra life because you had a bad night’s sleep, just as your boss doesn’t care if that was a really great party last night, just as people on the internet don’t care your crappy blog entry was “my first post go easy on me!” The game cares that you presented yourself and didn’t perform. Your score is your score is your score. Period. And whether it’s life, or work, or play, the only way to get better is to take the cards you were dealt and make the best of them, even if the odds seem overwhelming and unfair.

But that’s what happens when you live in a society where people are told that they are special snowflakes. And snowflake syndrome isn’t exclusive to videogames. After all, my professional basketball career didn’t pan out because I was too short. If only I had been 6’7 and I wasn’t a crappy basketball player. I’d probably be playing professional basketball by now! The difference is that if I walk onto a basketball court and spout nonsense that “I play for fun”, people will laugh at me. On some courts, I’d probably get my♥♥♥♥♥kicked. But apparently, it’s an acceptable excuse when videogames are the form of recreation.

So in declaring that they’re simply in the business of “playing for fun”, these players don’t learn the game rules and they don’t bother trying to see the game on a level beyond the first move. If you’re a fighting game fan, you’re probably aware that this has significant overlap with the “scrub”, a player who plays by imaginary rulesets constructed in his own mind for the purpose of refusing to deal with the actual game rules.* And if you want extended reading, I would invite you to check out the Battle.net forums and check out the wonderful world of low-level StarCraft II. If somebody loses to Marines, then Marines are overpowered. If somebody loses to Ultralisks, then Ultralisks are overpowered. If the opposing player anticipates a mid-game strategy based on an early-game build, then that player is clearly maphacking. If someone makes more units than them, then StarCraft is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥t click-fest which rewards mouse speed instead of strategy. In the world of low-level gaming, it’s simply not your fault if you lose. Because, after all, “I play for fun.”

(Part 1 of 2)

"I play for fun": The Four Dumbest Words in Videogames (2/2)

(Part 2 of 2, chopped up due to text limits per section.)

Sure, skilled gamers such as Greg Fields (IdrA) indulge the StarCraft II lexicon by asking people to apologize for playing the Terran race.* Sure, you’ll get your rants, where “after playing 3,000 matches, I’ve determined this game isn’t worth the money.” But for the most part, the nature of good players is that they understand why they lost. And if they don’t, they’ll try to figure out why. They’ll watch replays. They’ll watch videos. They’ll analyze build orders. They’ll consult for help on discussion boards. They may voice dissatisfaction about a game, but that dissatisfaction is rooted in far more authority and expertise than someone who admits to playing games on a superficial level.

And in the end, “I play for fun” ultimately implies that being good at a videogame is a bad thing. You know…only losers do that! Newsflash: The value of a pursuit is irrelevant, and in the grand scale of things, most people are irrelevant. You and me are not absent from that. So long as those players are being progressive about their interests, and the pursuit of becoming better means seeking better pleasures and goals, then there is no problem with that. Whereas the people who use terms such as “I play for fun” are apparently offended and enraged by the idea of trying to become good at a videogame. Well, the only way those people impact your existence is if they log into the game and kick the ever-loving♥♥♥♥♥♥out of you. In which case, you have one of two options: You can either get over it, or you can get better.

Now, this is not to justify the degenerate habits which exist in the world of online videogames. Because it was about winning at all costs, we’d be exploiting every game-breaking glitch and firing off every cheat that we can. As it concerns videogaming and pleasure, the purpose of playing to win is to decide what games and how games are worth playing. And sometimes, you will have to play with or against people who inflict their competitive drive on others. You’ll play with or against complete ♥♥♥♥ing ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s. This is not to justify their behavior, but in order to get the most out of games, you must acknowledge that these players exist and you must prepare for them. Are you going to let these players stop you from doing something you love?

So instead of announcing that you play for fun, go have fun. And believe me, I can assure you that we will both be having fun. The only question is who will be having more fun, and I probably beat you at that as well. Get over it, or get better.

Conclusion!

Holy crap, you actually read this far?!?! I never planned for this...

Example Threads:

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/135514766277989941/
(For newbies getting KICKED in versus, READ THIS and implement)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/1474222595311947525/
(Why are there still so many noobs in an almost' 10 year old game?)
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/492379439667533151/
(Public Service Announcement for all you new players!)

So I've given all sorts of reasons for the Newbies to stay out of Versus, but as the saying goes, "you can't control anybody but you," so what can us vets do to help make L4D2 a little less toxic? Well, two things:

1) Educate the newbies who are willing to listen, and
2) Try to cultivate a little bit more patience.

I'll close with one final quote I really liked:

Originally posted by Stasis:
the thing about versus in public games is this... while majority of the "so-called veterans with high hours" are quick to rage kick and complain about noobs, it mostly comes from a place of ego and fear of losing the match. these are usually the same bunch that will rage quit the minute they sense a loss coming. the really seasoned and higher tier veterans capable of playing both the promod/acemod configs and vanilla pubs usually just play in a relax way and don't kick that easily because they understand pubs are usually imbalanced and they try their best to balance a match, even teach noobs/newbies a thing or two. we won't see these players in the forum but they are still very active in the game itself. so ur guides and meta-guides are representative of this community on a huge level. they are just absent in the forums but present in game. there is too much cancer in versus, but l4d2 is a great game and worth keeping alive in ways big and small!

45 Comments

< >

Ranby 9 Aug, 2023 @ 9:02pm

Sorry to say, you don’t know people are doing that.

Paladyne [author] 9 Aug, 2023 @ 8:14pm

Repeat after me: It's never "a single mistake."

Reread the "WTF I got kicked for no reason!" section.

If you honestly think it was for a single mistake, that's likely a sign you made half a dozen other errors and didn't even realize it.

Ranby 11 Jul, 2023 @ 5:00am

OP sounds like a toxic player who kicks and insults players for a single mistake. Get a life buddy

agent? 8 May, 2023 @ 6:54am

If you have problems with different people with different skill levels joining your match then don't make it public. Public by definition means open to everyone. This applies to both noobs and pros. Also bob should literally play another game with a better matchmaking system like valorant or hell even cod zombies if it ruins his experience so much. A persons enjoyment on a game shouldn't be based upon such luck.

󠀡 27 Feb, 2022 @ 10:53am

@Sinthetic
He constantly switches positions. This is nothing new. Just look at how he is telling people to follow the basics/fundemantals of versus, only to go against it by saying that you can't go fast to limit the special infected spawns. The thread: https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/app/550/discussions/0/2518023667582961297/?ctp=23

Obviously going so fast that there's a giant gap between you and the team, it would be valid there, but in this context, there's no giant gap between team members. This guy (Paladyne) gives me grifter vibes.

Paladyne [author] 13 Oct, 2021 @ 9:37pm

"You say that people should go easy on newbies, only to list ten separate points as to why they shouldn't play at all! Versus on public servers!"

Fixed that for you.

Synthetic 13 Oct, 2021 @ 5:17pm

You say that people should go easy on newbies, only to list ten separate points as to why they shouldn't play at all!

NemesisLeon44 2 Oct, 2021 @ 10:01am

if people think left 4 dead 2 is toxic wait til they try natural selection 2.

still a big fan of live autohandicap.

Dark Virus 16 Aug, 2021 @ 12:36pm

me who only plays with friends:

ded~ 20 Feb, 2021 @ 11:32pm

not also when 1 person is bad on one team but the rest are equally good
it ruins that game because the other team could of won if they found a good 4th

< >