You can read Eric Mcger's great book Sowing the Dragon Teeth, a translation of Byzantine Military Manuals and a commentary on them, on how Nikephoros Phokas used pike formations akin to the Greek phalanx of old to guard the infantry squares against Arabian light cavalry

Do you have online references to that? This mod is not about unit assignments to factions, it just makes the spears in formation more useful relative to swords.

Hey great mod, just want to point out though that there are indeed proper hoplites after Greece. The Eastern Romans will continue to use hoplite like formations as mentioned in Maurice Strategos book and even during the 10th century during Nikephoros Campaign.

wow i was just wondering you actually took the time to tweak that? thank you very much that was really kool of you. Appreciate it.

Update the mod to make the wall, square and hollow square less overpowered. This is based on testing and the advice of Derpislav. In particular, the first strike bonuses of these formations are greatly reduced from the original mod values.

thanks for making this and sharing it. did you happen to fix that overpowered issue derpislav mentioned?

Nice work

Thanks. I'll test that out and fix that feature. What value do you think is most realistic for pikes?

Thanks. I'll test that out and fix that feature.

The first strike attribute is very wonky in Attila and has silly results if set to numbers above single digits - the 60% makes a single phalanx capable of holding a gate against 4 full armies (yes, I checked) which is just bonkers.
Great mod otherwise

Thank you for the mod, this is the first time i saw spearmen beating swordsmen with multiple attacks(3 spermen trying to kill 1 swordsman

Thank you for the references. I can't see an immediate application from that reading as the unit blocks don' t mix.. If you don't object, I will move your comments to a discussion section of this steam mod. I am fascinated by the history and like to build mods around my vision and readings. I encourage others to do the same. This mod is open source and a jumping point for whatever mod you envision. I think this is better in a discussion because most players are more into gameplay and unit appearance than links to history.

Those links aren't to mods; they are the historical references you asked for: " If you want of find some historical references that would be nice" -
Specifically to your mod, it looks like your solution was to give them (german "pikemen") kontos or cavalry lances, rather than the sarissa- pikes vanilla has, which I suppose is answer enough.
I can see your point about " the phalangites of Alexander reborn?" -
and yes, aside from vanilla ATW where the pikes can be quite rowdy for a "step 2 recruitment" unit https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=478558942
you mentioned other mods making them pure tanks.
Short of unit replacement- not what you're doing here- this is a graceful and handy workaround.
Also, nice catch on the formations issue. Well done.

It is better to stick to focusing on this mod for the public user comments. PM or start a discussion with this material. Anyone can start a discussion about someone else's mod on Steam.

well, i was asking your own take as a fellow modder.
well, two points- ha...spear points I agree with you that TW is using them for fillers, to me this is refelctive of TW's issues with not distinguishing standing professional army vs levy/raised army- the implications for history of the wealth to *miantain* a standing army is *huge*, no? - and those cultures with enough prosperity to have a middle class /militia ( such as yeoman or greek or roman) - have another set of implications, when the nobles and their retinue- the only standing army of most- no longer have a monopoly of violence. ( fair ?) - we alos struggle with how the game engine, since empire on, handles blobbing/formations.

anyway- i agree with your take on *why* ( altho i have seen germanic pike in vanilla do... horrible horrible things -as you say, jut don't get flanked...)
Here's some stuff i culled that *isn't* from book-memroy- includes a link to a very in-depth discussion: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3wtvm5/did_the_ostrogoths_used_pikes_or_sarissa_at_any/cxz9zrf/ links to https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a98c/9f3248511116bf9fb8d183aafaecc4ae4425.pdf

I am not sure what you're asking. Barbs in Attila Vanilla all use pikes. They are one step above levy spearmen. If you want of find some historical references that would be nice. CA seems to think they are chart fillers. They are certainly weaker than the Rome 2 Pike Phalanxes. This mod makes them stronger than Vanilla in certain situations where they are not flanked.

little shepherd -
my understanding is, the "pikemen" CA gave the germans of this era are based on roman references to "phalanx" -- and I"m not asking you to change your mod; I'm asking to compare notes-
based on my own readings ( the germans are hard to research! - guess what my r2:tw mod was... ) I strongly suspect it was not a macedonian pike phalanx, but a greek/roman style phalanx to which these sources refer ) - I don't find any references to pike- style combat in this period -
the eastern romans do use a kontos-pike- and have the standing professional army that requires to pull off- but I'm muddy on the date -
you have any thoughts on this?

Wow... Interesting to know. Thanks!

Yes. If you have a problem, delete noifs animations.
Note that 1212 gives makes spear walls about 1000% stronger than Vanilla with a +15 attack on top of several poorly chosen buffs. It's unbalanced. This mod aims for historic reality and gives them perhaps a 70% buff if in formation. 1212 makes spear/pike walls into killer tanks. This mod makes them stand their ground with fewer casualties and a bit more lethality.

is this compatable with 1212ad?

Always like these sort of mods myself.

Thanks for developing it.