Thanks hugely!

@Lampros Updated.

Hi, I looked at More Active Clash earlier, too; but the problem there was that it changes hit chance as well - and that will conflict with other mods I use.

@Lampros I have updated More Active Clash, but if you are interested, I can update this one too.
More Active Clash:
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=739301746

Is this being updated?

@islanderz671 Updated.
Had to update Pack File Manager 4.1 tables for that too, as it does not understand 'battle_entities' after the game version update. Thanks to the guys on twcenter forum thread.

Update plz :)

@Alliria d'Evoir Благодарю.
Снизить скорость перемещения не получится, потому что в этом моде я старался делать как можно меньше изменений, чтобы добиться наилучшего эффекта, не меняя боевую механику и баланс. И не мешая другим модам быть совместимым с этим (:

Вот, правильно я в battle_entities не полезла. Слушай, если в этом моде снизишь еще и скорость передвижения - будет вообще шикарно. Забрала в коллекцию.

@HEU3BECTEH(RUS) Спасибо за ответ. Я попробую выключить моды которые могут изменять боевую механику юнитов и играть без них и возможно вы правы.

With Bruddo's help I have found out that wrong version was uploaded. I hope that my mistake have not caused any problem.

@Bruddo Предыдущим обновлением я закачал "тестовую" версию, которая могла вызывать проблемы (очень удивлен, что так могло получиться). Исправил, теперь этих проблем быть не должно.
Спасибо за комментарий, он дал мне заметить эту ошибку быстрее.

@Bruddo Может возникать ошибка из-за конфликта с модами, изменяющими основные таблицы 'unit_spacings' (расстояние между пехотой в построениях) и 'battle_entities' (скорость движения пехоты, радиус отдельных бойцов и т.п.). Такая ошибка обычно проявляется не во время игры, а во время запуска, еще до главного меню.

Не знаю по причине какой,но данный мод у меня вызвает ошибку во время игры. Возможно ли конфликт с другими модами?

@HEU3BECTEH: No problem man, glad to "help" haha. Thanks again for making this mod. I agree with your sentiment as well.

@Drone456 Thank you again for the feedback.
After I have removed hero-specific records, almost no units had any ignore chances, and there is no sufficient reasons in making additional change for them. I believe it should be changed for bigger range of units or unchanged at all.
If tests show vanillish enough results it is the most important information about them =)

@HEU3BECTEH: Haha that is odd. There might not have even been a problem to begin with, and they were just placebo differences. Since this game has quite the random range apparently. That initial clash, seemingly alters the entire fight. I did more tests (before this latest patch) with the Chaos Spawn vs Swordsmen to see if they're similar enough to the vanilla results, and they seemingly are. I can paste these in the discussion area if you want. Up to you, as I doubt this data will help/change anything. I did 5 tests per this time, to get a better sample size.

So I noticed you removed those other changes. Is that because you tested them, and didn't like the results? Or because they wouldn't cover all heroes/single units?

@bigsur Thank you~ (интересный ресурс, буду знать)

great mod and successful experiment! (выложил информацию о ваших проектах на imtw .ru. удачи вам в ваших экспериментах!)

@Drone456 The way you interpreting it is right. I do not know what specifically, but it seems something was not in favour of large beasts. Maybe dumb luck (:
I tweaked ignore chances because they are non-zero for heroes. I am yet to test it, but I guess if they are nullified heroes will be stunlocked?.. I decreased the chance-to-not-ignore instead of increasing the chance to ignore to have the resulting value between 0 and 100. Now that I think about it, not all heroes are man type, and seems there will be no changes to other types at all.

Thus selecting 'man' by 'type' does not really cover it, I will thin out the list of changed records to leave only infantry.

@HEU3BECTEH: Ah ok, no worries then. If you're not sure what they explicitly do, why did you assume that they might be beneficial to tweak in the first place? Just wondering why they stood out to you at all. Also why you decided on (100-base_value)*40%? Seems really specific haha. I am terrible at math, so that might just be my ignorance glorifying that equation. Sorry if these are annoying questions man, just curious, and haven't looked at the tables/variables myself. Feel like if I do that, I won't stop tweaking my own game lmao.

Yeah I sort of figured that was your intention with this mod. And as stated previously, I do agree with it, but it is your mod. So don't let my feelings sway you :D

Sorry to keep pestering you about this, but are you saying you did change something? And that changed the efficacy of monstrous infantry? I'm just a little confused sorry. It sounds like you had altered something, and then reverted that, and now the efficacy of those units are now on par with vanilla? Or at least that's the way I'm interpreting it.

It's apparently impossible to judge what is random, or just different balance on this game lol. Going from not losing a single model, and hardly any health, to losing almost the whole unit with the same mod , no changes; really throws me off haha. Maybe I'm forgetting, but I feel like Shogun 2 was a lot more consistent. I don't like my elite infantry, just sometimes not being elite because of "reasons". Lol.

Sorry also about the multiple posts. I suck at typing small, or doing outlines. Even when I was in school I was bad at doing outlines. Which is why I never took notes lmao. I'd write down verbatim if I did.

@Drone456 Sadly I do not really know more than you about parameters. I believe that ignore chances are weighted somehow by the strength of the impact though.
You are right about this mod trying to make as little changes as it is possible to achieve reasonable effect. The other mod I posted the link to is sort of complete combat overhaul I recomended to a person wanting every unit to fight without being behind behind buddies back.
I guess some of the values I previously affected for monstrous infantry (except hp?) somehow maked it less effective in battle vs small-but-active. It would be to strange if that was purely random effect.

Ah ok that makes sense for the spacing. Just wanted to ask in case that was something that could be changed with minimal effect to the rest of the mod. For "hit_reactions_ignore_chance" and "knock_interrupts_ignore_chance", does this mean that a model could get hit by say a lord, and just tank through it? Without budging/flinching? Or potentially not get knocked around or away by an attack that would do so (like a spell, or lord)? And for "turn_speed", does this affect the actual unit whilst moving *like if I right-click and drag them facing a different way), or does it affect them in combat? Like if a unit (or single unit) gets hit in the back, they'll turn to face that enemy much faster?

These were more what I wanted to know, sorry man. I should have clarified my question more, as I could obviously tell what these do to a degree, just by the name. Thanks for trying to explain that though, and sorry if you can't actually answer the further inquiries about them.

Unfortunately I don't know what else you can change in the game's files, otherwise I would try to help you brainstorm on other ideas besides health to help the larger units out. I'm not quite sure why this is happening anyways? Are you? Like why would more of the infantry attacking these monstrous infantry make it so they take more damage? You would think that the monstrous infantry would be better in this scenario. More tiny things to smash lol. I'm hoping that these disparities can be resolved by an official patch from CA, as the targeting of single units, and monstrous infantry is sub-par at best IMO (see my Chaos Spawn spazzing out on single units, instead of being in the fight. They also seem to have too small of a damage radius). If they fix this, I think your mod won't have as many issues in this regard anymore.

But yes I do think your mod should not affect health, or any real "balance" modifiers. As I think this mod is better suited to be able to be ran with a lot of things. Especially overhauls. That's just my opinion though, and it's your mod and vision. So do what you want by all means. I just think a highly compatible mod, is a better mod when the main focus is a more non-interfering feature. Such as the spacing, and clashes you have.

So are you saying that the issues with monstrous infantry and normal infantry are resolved? That they fight almost the same way, with and without your mod? And just randomly? You haven't changed anything, or a mod didn't update you were using? That's bizarre lol.

That mod you linked to changes too much in my opinion, and will result in a lot of people being unable to use it, or just unwilling to. As they might want the vanilla experience, and that removes that. Even his "only clash" version, still modifies values.

Более кардинальные изменения вносит, например, этот мод (Rush Battle Mod Warhammer Edition):
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=691625850
Я могу рекомендовать попробовать и его.
P.S. Длина сообщения врет про 1000 символов, в два раза меньше, может кириллица?..

@Vorondor По поводу Active Clash'а.
При тестировании я пробовал разные варианты, но пришлось остановиться на существующем ныне из-за баланса и игровой механики. По моему опыту, если оставить шеренги четыре вместо стандартных семи, в бою будет участвовать каждый боец. Только бой станет намного скоротечнее.
В целом же с использованием мода игровой баланс и возможность, например, заходить в тыл противнику сохраняется. Бой становится более похожим на бой, при этом не внося критических изменений в механику игры, это важная его особенность.

Now the fun thing.
I have thought to make separate mod-fix with hp increase, so I kept the changes in "primary" mod to minimum. And test imply that large beast problem is resolved without that planned hp fix... I just dunno. Random god?

I do not like the idea of changing any hp myself, but my tests show that large units can not deal with "active" small units the same way they dealt with "square meets square" guys.
I test it mostly with Vanilla/Vanilla+mod 4 x Swordsmens vs 2 x Chaos Spawns (tried giant too). There is a BIG random influence, but my tests show that bonus hp help much, though Vanilla large units manage things little better nonetheless.
And I can not come up with any other balancing method besides entity hp increase without changes to any tables besides 'battle_entities' and 'unit_spacings' (I think this mod should not mess with any other?).
I can abstain from any hp changes, but it will make "active" men more effective against large beasts than vanilla ones...

@Drone456 @MaDMardigan Thank you for the testing one more time.

Concerning missiles and infantry I believe the mod is now balanced the way it should. It increases the effective radius the same way it decreases it and accounts for spacings well enough IMO. I wish to leave spacings as it is because without them clashes become too compact. I like when some soldier manages to breach enemy line too.
I am not the developer and not so sure myself, but I understand 'hit_reactions_ignore_chance', 'knock_interrupts_ignore_chance' as chance to ignore hitstun (now everyone is hit more often I feel it should be increased a little), 'turn_speed' as speed at which units change the direction they are facing.

After reading the first testings I started with trying me as a lill modder too ^^ (couldnt wait untill its updated lol)
In my modified version of your active clash i increased the projectile radius too but didnt do the rest of your changes, espacially not the bonus hit points. I just changed the monster and cav radius value back to original.

Tested it with Radious Mod - Chaos Spawn vs Grimnir Berzerkers.

Radious only without "my activeclash" Berzerks had 4700 health left
Radious with my mod version activated Berzerks had 4400 health left (another try they had 5000 health left. Depends on how they clash into each other)
Radious with your mod version activated Berzerks had 3700 health left

The extra health seems to be a bit much like Drone figured out earlier.
I like your mod and the idea of enhancing battle behaviour without changing balance too much. I would appreciate if you could find another way than increasing health of units.
I hope i could help you a bit :-)

Also no worries on doing these tests, as I find it kind of fun. And I was wanting to test between Radious and Steel Faith anyways at that time. I also forgot to mention, that it seems like your tweak to ranged helped (as you can see). So kudos on that. Although if you can have the army clashing advantage of this mod, without the spacing (as I asked below), I think that might be best perhaps. But that's up to you man. Quick updates btw.

So did some more testing. I'm confused. Remember when I said that "Although in some cases (such as the Chaos spawn), I don't think the results are within a margin of random, for me to discount the massive difference between them."? Well apparently I was wrong. Got the actual numbers this time to share with you (would have had them last time, but my computer crashed and I didn't save...)

Results below:

Radious:
32 killed, 2181 health (no route) -Crossbow vs Spearmen
25 killed, 3433 health (no route) -Handgunners vs Greatswords
13 killed, 3085 health (no route) -Mortar vs Spearmen
2152 health left, 56:19 min -Franz vs Swordsmen
4 lost, 1696 health left -Chaos Spawn vs Swordsmen
7 lost, 5416 health left. 56:23 min -Greatswords vs Swordsmen


Radious+Active:
37 killed, 2326 health (no route) -Crossbow vs Spearmen
18 killed, 3573 health (no route) -Handgunners vs Greatswords
15 killed, 4150 health (no route) -Mortar vs Spearmen
2225 health left, 56:02 min -Franz vs Swordsmen
0 lost, 3472 health left -Chaos Spawn vs Swordsmen (patch: 1 lost, 4034 health left) -Wtf?
1 lost, 5630 health left, 57:13 min -Greatswords vs Swordsmen

Particularly confused by the patch results, as they had like 3k more health. Does this game do a percentage damage system or something? Didn't test Steel Faith, as it didn't seem like a fair test, since you just updated. Got the rest of these in before the update (except greatswords, but I don't think that mattered). That greatswords test looked cool btw, almost the whole army was involved. Took a picture (https://s31.postimg.org/phajl9923/20160617165834_1.jpg) as opposed to the square meets square thing, which actually had an affect apparently?

So I don't think you actually need to increase the health of the monster units. Nor should you probably, as that messes with balance pretty drastically (or should lol), as some mods already increase some monster's health. Also can you have what you have (where the whole army sort of gets involved) without increasing the unit spacing during transit? That would help alleviate the missile concerns, without affecting balance.

Would you also mind elaborating on what the new values you've changed do (I can glean the basic idea, but not sure what it means for gameplay)? I had no idea they let you mess with so much this time around (messed around with Shogun 2, but that seemed more limited). To specify "'hit_reactions_ignore_chance', 'knock_interrupts_ignore_chance' and 'turn_speed' has been increased on 40% for every key." are what I'm talking about.

'hit_points' of large units has been increased. I hope it will compensate balance issues.

@Drone456 @BLUESTORM2112 I believe missile problem has been fixed.
Concerning monstrous infantry it seems like the only way is to increase their hp on some extent... It will make harder to defeat them with non-melee-infantry units though.

Thank you for all the findings you have done!

I will try to do any possible balancing without affecting tables besides 'battle_entities' and 'unit_spacings'. Maybe the missiles can be fixed with 'projectile_intersection_radius_ratio'? I will test it. The other way is to decrease 'walk_speed' and 'run_speed', but I believe this is not a solution.
To fix the problem with monstrous infantry I can change it to default (let the mod affect only 'man' type), maybe there is some sense in increasing 'turn_speed' or something too?
Hopefully I will be able to try it this evening.

So did some testing. These are my observations:

1) The balance doesn't seem that affected in a match-up like Swordsmen vs Zombies. I lost a couple more people than without the mod on. However the fight itself (and all my melee fights) seemed to resolve a lot faster. Casualties racked up quicker, etc. Because more attacks are being landed/thrown obviously.

2) A match-up like Chaos Spawn and Swordsmen though was quite different than vanilla (with Radious/Steel Faith 'tried both'). In both mods, I ended up losing a lot more health (like a few hundred) on my Chaos Spawn then I did without this mod on. In Radious' case, I actually lost 3 of my 9 (have large unit sizes), whereas without this mod, I lost none. This fight again, resolved a lot quicker.

3) Ranged units (like Empire Crossbowmen) are definitely affected by this mod. They ended up killing almost half the amount of units, and did a several hundred less (think it was around 500 or so on Radious) hp damage. In the case of artillery however, it doesn't seem as affected oddly. Partly because the AI tends to stop and regroup it's unit (Swordsmen vs Mortar) when it gets hit cleanly. Whereas without this mod, that didn't seem to happen. Probably because of the increased spacing, and then the displacement puts them at an extreme distance, and the game forces them to regroup. However they did still do less damage, and in the case of Steel Faith, failed to route the unit before they got too close (because that happened in vanilla Steel Faith).

4) Single units (tested Empire Captain, and Karl Franz) were actually better with this mod on. The battle ended faster, and the enemy (Swordsmen) routed faster as well. Since the single unit was hitting more of them at once generally, and not only getting like 1 unit at a time. This mod also resulted in them taking less damage during the fight too. Ended with around 500 health on Radious with Captain, and around 1200 with this mod. Around 1200 health with Steel Faith, and around 1600 health with this mod. I think the reason for this happening, is because the single unit tends to get pushed out from the main mass of the battle, and gets to attack a column of them basically. Instead of standing in the crowd, and getting whaled on from every direction. Which btw, how fucking stupid is it, that single units can get a "attacked from the flank" penalty? That is guaranteed to happen (even in a 1v1 with another single unit), especially when they turn around and derp it up so much.

5) I really enjoy the look of fights with this mod on; they look more like a battle, and less like my square meets your square. Even with single units it looks better. It makes more sense to me that the single unit would stand off from the side, and try fighting them that way. The way the enemy bunches up during it looks cool as well. The Chaos Spawn fight looked better too; I had several empire soldiers around each one. It looked like an actual beast that's fighting a smaller enemy. Just more organic in general in my opinion.

6) Unfortunately I do think that the efficacy of ranged units, and smaller units (like the Chaos Spawn) make it too much of a detriment for me personally to keep using it. I'm not sure what you can do to remedy this, apart from mods like Radious and Steel Faith incorporating it into their mod, and balancing the units around it. Or you yourself changing stats. I like the idea of this mod though man. Great work.

Take these observations and feedback with a grain of salt though, as it wasn't exactly extensive testing (did one battle per each mod, with and without this mod on). So randomness could have definitely influenced the results. Although in some cases (such as the Chaos spawn), I don't think the results are within a margin of random, for me to discount the massive difference between them.

Sorry for so many posts. Character limits...

Well in my tests I used one unit of Quarellers vs one unit of Zombies set to medium unit sizes. I wanted to see how many Zombies the Quarellers could kill standing their ground before the Zombies made it into melee.

With Active Clash on the Quarellers had killed around 10 Zombies by the time they reached melee.

With Active Clash off they had killed almost 40 Zombies by the time they made it to melee.

@HEU3BECTEH: Thanks for taking the time out to answer my questions man, appreciate it.

1) Haha yeah, the cowards! I guess I'm more specifically referring to when a Lord or something is trying to path towards a specific model they're hell bent on, and have a hard time getting there. So they just end up being beat on, and not attacking too often.

2) Ah ok, and I'm assuming this affects calvary as well? Speaking of which, how is the spacing of other units (such as Chaos Spawn, Mortars, various calvary)?

3) Great to know, and thanks to @Pally Wal for confirming this as well.

4) No worries man. Gonna actually be messing around with it myself to see how it all shakes out. Probably answer my 1st and 2nd question in the process too. Also curious to see how hindered ranged units (and artillery) are with this mod. As I didn't think about that before BLUESTORM said something.

I like the idea, it makes the combat smoother and more realistic however it affects the balance of the game. Ranged units are rendered even less effective than before because of the greater spacing.

I miss the formations of the previous titles and options to spread ranged attacks or focus them.

@HEU3BECTEH(RUS) okay, thanks ive given it a try and so far it works with modded unit, radious and the LOD remover

Ill give this a try! Aside from the agents mod, all others I use are cosmetic.