not work

I figured out finally how to enable new air missions for the different types of aircraft. How you did it without having changes to subunits "type" in your Air document is puzzling to me? In the end I learned from your mod so thank you.

Doh... I deleted the first half of this comment... I don't have the energy to do it again.

Since war material can be found more often in the rear than on the front line, TAC have more targets of opportunity than CAS do in their respective roles. This is why TAC were built in much larger numbers than CAS during the war (almost 3 to 1) ain the warTAC should probably do more damage than CAS in the game to be truly balanced.

It seems everyone is caught up with the name Paradox decided to give the only air mission that does direct damage to land units. It is also unfortunate that the only time the missions even engage is when ground combat is happening. Downplaying the role of air interdiction and deep air support simplifies the games systems but makes air warfare unrealistic. In lieu of a second mission type, (which won't happen) I think that the game needs a minor adjustment to balance the role of TAC in the air war. However, it can be changed. As soon as I figure out how to make a mod...

Thanks for your time Aerodil. Great discussion.

--continued--

Regarding the question of gifting me a DLC in order for me to keep updating it;
Sure, I can do that -though it'd take a while since I hadn't touched the game in almost a year and there is a lot to catch up.

However, the issue is that I don't have any DLCs past the first one (Together for Victory). As much as appreciate your generosity, I can't ask you -or anyone else- to buy me a whole collection of DLCs.

Just hang in there. I should eventually be able to buy the whole damn thing again.

--continued--

As for STR having CAS capabilities and vice versa. I think that's a bit too far. First of all, Close Air Support means just that, "close". You don't dive a B-17 on a tank and drop a bomb on its turret. Not just because it is physically too large and slow to pull of such a move, but also because it is physically too large and slow to even get to that position without getting shot out of the sky by everything within hundred miles. You can still use level-bombing to indirectly support your troops, but close air support is not it.

More importantly, as much as I want to make this as historically realistic as possible, there comes a point where the requirements of being a "game" requires you to make sacrifices in order to find the balancing point between fun, game-balance and realism.
CAS not having STR attack is one of those cases.

@Drakken; That's really the point. You don't really build TAC aircraft CAS missions. It's not entirely suited to the role and is too expensive for it.
If your air force is built around a CAS doctrine, then light bombers and fighter-bombers are your friends. They are more suited to small nations that can only afford a small force that needs to be as versatile as possible.

TACs are meant more for larger nations that can support a larger, more varied force, but still cannot fully afford the industrial/time cost of large bombers. TACs in this case are used for lite-strategic bombing, which does involve the interdiction type missions that medium bombers historically were used for. They can still be used in ground attack role, but they really are not meant to be a substitute for dedicated attack aircraft.

With all that said, I will take a look at the stats for your sake and see if a compromise can be made. Maybe some tweaking can be done on the cost or combat stats fronts.

Ooh. I didn't see the earlier message. Aerodil, What DLC are you missing and if I gift it to you will you update the mod?

I figured out where the mod is and I don't mind altering a few numbers for myself but I don't feel confident adding in the scout aircraft.

Now to drive you completely crazy... I think STR should have some ground attack value and CAS should have a small STR value. I know the USA used STR extensively at Anzio in a ground support role and many other times in the war. And obviously CAS was used against forts, airfields, and other strategic targets. In fact, when pressed all available aircraft were used in whatever roles they could.

Thanks for the discussion and again for the mod.

I don't know where to find the mod folder or I would change it for myself.

Aerodil, I will respectfully disagree on the value of TAC.

With the current production costs, one can field 63% more CAS than TAC. So, I can field 163 level 2 CAS x 15 ground attack = 2445 ground support. For the same production, I can field 100 level 2 TAC x 12 ground attack = 1200 ground support.

That is more than double the ground support plus a 63% bonus to air superiority. Not to mention the extra aluminum, manpower, and the extra fuel for the TAC. IMHO unless you absolutely need a lot of range (perhaps the Japanese) and need TAC to fill a naval air role (again perhaps the Japanese), I see no reason to ever build TAC for ground support unless you do it for flavor. (which I do)

@boot noodles; So you said already.

And while I cannot stop anyone from modifying values in the mod for their own pleasure, it is strongly discouraged that anyone fiddle with them unless you absolutely know what you are doing, lest you risk breaking cost and unit balance.

Just remember, if you don't like the author's values, you can always make your own. Don't expect him to change them for you. Adding scout planes is just a matter of copying them from air.txt and twin_engine_airframe.txt into the mod's version of those files.

--continued--

The lower attack value for medium bombers is partly there to reflect this as well; while the game forces us to combine these two missions into one, the player (and the game) still uses the mission as "close air support" in its stricter, historical form, for which these planes (TAC) are still too large to provide effective weapon deployment against enemy troops and vehicles*.

So it's a combination of cost-vs-benefit balancing, as well as Paradox kind of ruining what CAS was supposed to be (and used to be).

*This is a generalisation. Some medium bombers (like the A-20) were versatile enough to be used in close air support/attack missions, but the game doesn't quite allow for specific cases.

--continued--

Yet another part is the consolidation of what used to be two different missions in the previous games into one. We used to have CAS as well as Interdiction missions for ground attack. CAS would target the troops/tanks and do strength damage, while Interdiction would target troop supply lines and do organisation damage.
Now however, we simply have one mission that does both strength and organisation damage. Which by its nature limits our tactical options as well as force us to widen our definition of close air support.
That's why, Close Air Support must now involve interdiction missions within its definition as well, despite it still being characterised by its unique deployment of light bombers in direct attack roles and despite the way the player utilises it in a historic CAS role.

@Drakken; Thank you for taking the time and sending me your feedback and suggestion. I really appreciate the initiative and your desire to improve the mod.

This is one of those things where the intended purpose of the mod's stat-tweaking comes into play. Which is; to nudge the player into a situation where he/she needs to make decisions based on, at least a superficial, cost-vs-benefit analysis.

The TAC bombers kinda need to have lower close air support values in order for the type to NOT be abused. The higher cost is a part of this. Another part is that these bombers already have the naval strike as well as light strategic bombing capabilities. Giving them a CAS capability that is on par with CAS aircraft would automatically make it a no-brainer to build anything but TAC bombers, effectively making the other types obsolete; as this type would be the most cost-effective of any aircraft in the game, despite its relatively higher cost vs the CAS type, throwing the balance off.

Drakken, just go to the vanilla files, copy out the scout aircraft from there into the mod, and you're golden.

cont'd

In conclusion, ground support should not be considered synonymous with close air support. In the scope of in game air missions, air interdiction and deep air support are just as important. I would propose TAC should have at the very least ground support values on par with CAS in this game. The extra expense of the TAC still makes them an inferior choice for ground support but it certainly makes it a closer call.

Thanks for your time making this great MOD! I hope you keep up the good work. You certainly have a great eye for improving strategy games.

cont'd

However, the mission both aircraft are flying is not called close air support. It is called ground support. Ground support doesn't just include close air support, it also includes, air interdiction, and deep air support. This is where TAC aircraft are significantly more effective because of the heavier bomb load.

Considering the scale of this game, (grand strategy) there are just as many if not more, large, static, targets (think vehicular columns, fuel and ammo depots, gun emplacements, fortified positions, mass infantry formations, buildings) as there are small, individual, and mobile targets. I would argue that TAC did just as much, if not more, damage to men and material as CAS did in the war. Which is why they were built in larger numbers than CAS by a large margin.

@ aerodil Just my input... I still think TAC could use a little more boost to their ground support stats. I think they should be on par with CAS in that role. Let me explain why.

TACs 63% increased production cost, costing 1 more aluminum, 40% increased fuel usage, along with their lower ground support stats in game terms makes it a no brainer to use CAS almost exclusively. The extra range the TAC provide is really only helpful in a few cases in the game. I understand they can somewhat fulfill other roles but it does none of them very effectively.

Finally CAS aircraft were more accurate hitting individual, small, and more mobile targets in close proximity to the front lines. This is what made them effective in close air support.

@Drakken; Unfortunately, I don't have the resources to buy these expansions. The only reason I was able to keep up as far I did was because someone gifted me the game and the original expansion and I was pirating the other expansions.
Since I'm not willing to pirate anymore, the mods have been in a limbo. I don't see myself spending money anytime soon either. So these will have to stay the way they are for a while.

Yes. It came out with the newest expansion. Hopefully it entices you to do a little work on the game... ;-)

@Drakken; Recon aircraft? Is that a new thing?

@Aerodil I am currently playing with the mod with no crashes, the only thing I haven't been able to do is build the new recon aircraft. I can research them but it is not in the manufacture screen.

I am hoping that some day you update this mod again. It is exactly what the game needed. I like the lite version because it works with expert AI.

That's easily fixed. In the X_airframe files, change oil = to #oil =, or I think you could probably just remove the oil line as well, but that's how the base game is written at this time. All the oil is commented out, but the base game has a fuel consumption number that the mod doesn't have.

the oil cost and fuel consumption is still outdated

@Izhmash AN-94"Abakan"; You should be able to, yes.

Can it be used in version 1.61?

Can this please be updated for version for HOI4 1.5.3?

@Aerodil Thanks for the quick update, that's unfortunate

@MisterBazooka; Apparently one cannot assign air wings that can perform naval missions to armies. This seems to be a Paradox sourced issue. Don't yet know if this is modifiable, but I highly doubt it, because mission parameters are hard coded. Will keep looking.

@MisterBazooka; Yeah, I'm having the same issue. Looking into it.

Aerodil, love the mod, but noticed a small issue, i cannot attach tactical bombers to armies. Is anyone else seeing this?

Thanks!

Updated for 1.5.

Note: Haven't been able to work on the mod for a few months though I still try to maintain it. This update makes it compatible with the 1.5 version as well as the Waking The Tiger expansion. I hadn't had the opportunity to study the latest update in detail, so if there are any issues that are introduced by this update, please bring it to my attention as always. Thank you for your understanding.

thanks

@Baldos; Will get around to it real soon.

please update to 1.5

@mmmfriedrice; Not at all, shoot whatever you have.

@Aerodil

Thanks,

I'll get back to you. Time to play with winmerge! Mind if I just send you steam messages about stuff you'd like to keep or overwrite relative to the core files?

@mmmfriedrice; Yeah. Admittedly I didn't work too much on this mod. Just did a rough surface clean up on the main one to upload it for those who kept complaining about conflicts with other mods.

Feel free to modify it for own use. If you send me the cleaned up version I can update this and add you as a contributor. I don't think dividing the audience with a separate reupload is wise given the already small pool.

Let me know how it goes and thanks for your interest.

So the lite version of this mod retains a fair bit of content from the full thing. There's no need for the 00_traits.txt file--it leaves a bunch of debug text in the aircraft designer tooltip--among a few other things (unit names, etc). There's a lot of new vanilla localization content that gets overwritten by old stuff from this mod.

I'm interested in digging through this thing to update it for personal use (maybe reup with permission), but to do that for my entire mod catalogue is going to give me an aneurysm.

huh there seems to be a bug when I enable this mod with millenium dawn all the planes and even the research tree for them vanish

@taitake19970324; May? I'll check it out.

ohka may disappear if this mod active

yea, i just checked it out and it really cool!

@Emperor Hirohito; Oh yes! You can upgrade range, reliability, armament and speed.

so we can upgrade the range with the variants!? :O i didn't knew that!!

@Emperor Hirohito; Not without unbalancing the air tree. Use variants option for your specific needs.

would you be able to increase range of the planes?