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WiseCog 16 Aug, 2019 @ 5:45pm

This engine might be badly optimized. I will tell you why...

I was trying to increase map size by just a few tiles and it does not work at all with this engine. In fact even when I could enter the game (on some sizes I could generate map without instant crash) it crashed as soon as I pressed turn. I think this is why they removed underground layer at the last moment because the map simply CAN'T be any bigger on their engine.

This is insanely badly optimized. Never ever have any 4X game for me broken if I increased size (slowed down, sure, but never broken like this), and I usually double EVERY 4X games map size... But with this engine, it literally can't do any larger size than it already has (117x176 is max)...
In other words their engine is very weak. In AOW3 it even had underground, but now I understand why two layers were removed. Their engine is already pushed to the max, not a single tile bigger would work...

I am so damn amazed how badly optimized this is... I bet the devs sat there planning two layers until they realized their engine couldnt take any larger sizes (ooooops).... At least for release date....

PS: If this is simply a "bug" then devs, kindly step in and tell me. Why does your engine not cope at all with any increase in size? It either crashes when creating the map, or when pressing turn... Is your engine really this badly optimized or is the modding tools the fault???

Last edited by WiseCog; 17 Aug, 2019 @ 8:55am

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Showing 1-15 of 62 comments

WiseCog 16 Aug, 2019 @ 5:54pm

Even "Warhammer Gladius" (a dev team of 3 people or something) has a mod that basically triples the default map size. Turns take way slower on their engine but it works and never crashes or freezes.
IMO, speaking as a modder primarily, this is almost unacceptable. Every engine has limits, but this one is already capped at release, which is just really, really bad.

Last edited by WiseCog; 16 Aug, 2019 @ 5:56pm

WiseCog 16 Aug, 2019 @ 6:02pm

Now ive modded map sizes for Civ3, Civ 4, Civ5, Civ Beyond earth, Gladius, Sins of Solar empire, Endless Legend, AOW3, Heroes 3, Heroes 5... The list can go on. Every single ONE of these games can at least have double size with their engine, from the devs chosen default size.

The only limit is usually dependent on the players pc. With a ram of 32-64, all that usually happens is slowdown when turning and waiting for AI to make their moves (to be expected). Never breaking the maps this badly...

Last edited by WiseCog; 16 Aug, 2019 @ 6:04pm

WiseCog 17 Aug, 2019 @ 5:55am

Developers can you please try to get in touch with me? This is very bad for us modders and the future and longevity of the game. Is the engine really this weak or is it a limitation/bug with the modding tools?

Last edited by WiseCog; 17 Aug, 2019 @ 5:56am

Etherlight has Age of Wonders: Planetfall

17 Aug, 2019 @ 6:02am

Your points are very valid and well articulated, but I don't think your get much response from the developers by starting the post with a condescending insult.

phillip_lynx has Age of Wonders: Planetfall

17 Aug, 2019 @ 6:06am

If I wanted contact I would use an e-mail :)

WiseCog 17 Aug, 2019 @ 6:13am

Originally posted by Etherlight:
Your points are very valid and well articulated, but I don't think your get much response from the developers by starting the post with a condescending insult.

Well you are probably correct. When I wrote this last night I was very upset with how badly optimized the engine was. I will edit out the anger as much as I can.

Also thanks for the compliment :)

Last edited by WiseCog; 17 Aug, 2019 @ 6:22am

aclyte

17 Aug, 2019 @ 6:33am

Looks like it's some kind of bug (yours or theirs) or you hit some hardcoded limit.
D't think that they just use max number of possible tiles for the engine - engines just d't work this way, imo.

BBB

17 Aug, 2019 @ 6:41am

Yeah this sounds odd.

Game is much better optimised than AoW3, you should be able to mod map sizes without issues.

Oddly enough I was poking around the rpk yesterday trying to do just this :).

WiseCog 17 Aug, 2019 @ 6:48am

Originally posted by aclyte:
Looks like it's some kind of bug (yours or theirs) or you hit some hardcoded limit.
D't think that they just use max number of possible tiles for the engine - engines just d't work this way, imo.

I swear on my life. The limit is not on my PC specs (very good pc), but sure it could be a limit with the modding tools, in terms of bug.

To further expand on why i think its the engines fault though:
First of, their default enormous size is 117x176. Second of all, I tried a bunch of larger sizes to begin with. They all crashed upon generating map, then I came upon a soft spot where the map finally generated at size 189x272, although slowly which is to be expected. Double size didn't work in generating, so had to lower by quite a lot as you can see (234x352 would be about the double size).

Now here comes the real concerns and second wall. The maps even with only 8 players crashed as soon as I pressed turn... And every single size down to the default crashed the engine on pressing turn...

This to me speaks of bad engine, doesn't it for you? First the engine can't even generate maps without crashing, then when finally a size works it crashes when the ai (neutrals and opponents) starts thinking and planning their FIRST turns. I assume that the reason it crashes is due to the neutral enemies roaming around the map... The engine is not optimized at all to handle that many troops circulating?

Last edited by WiseCog; 17 Aug, 2019 @ 6:50am

WiseCog 17 Aug, 2019 @ 6:51am

Originally posted by BBB:
Yeah this sounds odd.

Game is much better optimised than AoW3, you should be able to mod map sizes without issues.

Oddly enough I was poking around the rpk yesterday trying to do just this :).

Well man, happy that you jump in (seen your face on AOW3 a lot over the years). Maybe you can try the size that at least generated the map for me (189x272)? And then press turn to see if it crashes. I tried with hotseat, 2 human players and 6 ai players.

I also followed the devs way of increasing with the number 18x32 every map increase. Thats what they had used with all their sizes.

Last edited by WiseCog; 17 Aug, 2019 @ 6:54am

#10

WiseCog 17 Aug, 2019 @ 7:05am

Originally posted by BBB:
Yeah this sounds odd.

Game is much better optimised than AoW3, you should be able to mod map sizes without issues.

Oddly enough I was poking around the rpk yesterday trying to do just this :).

The rpk you need to mod is "RMG_Definitions_Strategic.rpk" then in the dropdown list choose "Geography: Map Sizes".

I was also very disappointed in the fact that I cant create a completely new map size underneath enormous (I named it gigantic but it didnt show up in the game). Doesn't work with the mod tools even if I create a new rpk with new entries.

Last edited by WiseCog; 17 Aug, 2019 @ 7:12am

#11

scottkbeers has Age of Wonders: Planetfall

17 Aug, 2019 @ 7:07am

Sure hope this is a bug or something.. I know they crammed AoW3 to the hilt to.. Be nice to hear from sikbok or one of the devs to explain some of these concerns that seam to be popping up on the forums.Don't like the sound of a weak engine one bit if that indeed is the case???

Last edited by scottkbeers; 17 Aug, 2019 @ 7:08am

#12

SuicideSquad has Age of Wonders: Planetfall

17 Aug, 2019 @ 8:01am

Saying an engine is badly optimized just because you go beyond limits with modding tools is jumping conclusions. Especially as it seems to be a rather hard limit. Optimization issue would be for me: "other games can have 100x100 maps and need 2s for a turn, this needs 10s" . And even that would be a stretch.
So don't go claiming bad optimization because of single issue.

#13

WiseCog 17 Aug, 2019 @ 8:07am

Originally posted by SuicideSquad:
Saying an engine is badly optimized just because you go beyond limits with modding tools is jumping conclusions. Especially as it seems to be a rather hard limit. Optimization issue would be for me: "other games can have 100x100 maps and need 2s for a turn, this needs 10s" . And even that would be a stretch.
So don't go claiming bad optimization because of single issue.

Well maybe its a bit harsh saying that. But it definitely is acting very odd at the moment for a 64 engine. It could be that the mod tools have tons of bugs and limitations. However I read that these mod tools they gave us are very similar to what they themselves are using.

If I can edit xml files or lua in other games and increase sizes without issues, why does these issues happen here with these state of the art mod tools?

But also, even if its harsh words, IF it actually is badly optimized they could at least still improve upon it.

#14