Hearts of Iron IV

Hearts of Iron IV

The Resource War
Tomato  [developer] 29 Nov, 2017 @ 6:29am
Grain and Copper: Too Much or Too Little? Spread Out or Concentrated?
EDIT: Sorry for the typos, I did my neck in and reading sideways is hard.

Hi everyone. I'm making this thread because there's obviously a very common complaint with how I've balanced this mod, relating to resource amounts and distributions. Complaints such as:

1. Why is there zero grain in Germany/Britain/Belgium etc.? These countries all had farms and could all sustain some sort of war effort, so how does that make sense?

2. Germany's resource situation is too severe at the start of the war. Some people are reporting that they fail to capture France at all, for example, likely due to grain shortages hurting their rations. This goes against what I've seen in observer matches so, please, let me know if you've seen any unusual war timelines like this with a Germany that fails to get started.

3. Minor nations take far too much of a hit due to A: Requiring 4 new factories for the basic new equipments, and B: Having to trade civilian factories for food and copper.

First of all, let me say I hear you loud and clear when it comes to these complaints. And I have no intention of simply ignoring our players, especially when the comments are so consistent on this issue. However, the reason I'm not immediately opening up my spreadsheet and getting to work on some rebalances is because I have a bunch of worries about what these changes might do, and I want to make sure that I'm not removing anyone's favoirite element of the mod (shortage urgency, that is) by buffing grain and whatnot.

1. I originally had grain in both Germany and Britain, as well as a few other colonial regions. There was also significantly more grain in France and Poland, as both countries are recorded as being somewhat self-sustaining in terms of agriculture, unlike Britain and Germany. Why did I remove these deposits? In early playtests, I found that if Britain had so much as an 8-stack of grain in East Anglia, then sub raids made zero impact on their production. It was a similair case with Germany: just a little grain in hannover, plus their expected control of French and Polish grain, and suddenly Germany can easily produce enough rations without feeling the effect of the blockade. The main aim of this mod is to make those blockades more impactful, so I nerfed the grain.

2. Adding more grain in general means lessening the need for powers to expand for resource control. Why would Germany need to invade the USSR when the USSR has more than enough grain to trade with everybody, with some left over? This is how I feel a lot of the vanilla resources behave, and I dislike it. When is oil ever an issue for Germany? The USSR has more than enough to share. When is tungsten ever a concern, when the world never seems to run low on it? This is why I counted division rates in various playtests, calculated the amount of grain and copper needed each year of the war, and tried to stick to those numbers.

If you're for the discussed changes (more grain, with some in Germany, and wider distribution overall) then please let me know. If you'd rather keep the mod in a similair state to how it is now, then also please let me know.
Last edited by Tomato; 29 Nov, 2017 @ 6:31am
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Showing 1-15 of 16 comments
First of all your work is very good...i think we must have more grain...France has the lands to feed his armys(in the game has only 5 Grain),Germany the same...(Germany is big Agricalture power)
USA and USSR must be the leaders of Grain production but,all countrys must have some points too...thats my opinion,Thanks
Last edited by Meloukos~(Gaius Octavius); 29 Nov, 2017 @ 10:15am
Akestro 29 Nov, 2017 @ 11:24am 
first i know very little about grain in ww2
Germany atacked the Ussr because of "lebensraum"(Living space) which is in part duo graain but mostly to kill all the slavs and to spread the germanic culture.
Germany also to get countrol over oil and steel etc. cause their campaign in afrika was slowy starting to lose.

Id suggest that germany and pretty all nations have grain so the can maintain their army
The Blockade thing: you cold make it so that bombings reduce the output of grain( i know that that is unrealistic) or grain gets lost over time, then longor the transport way is from a to b.

And please change the 20 % attrition maybe reduce it a little cause at the moment you cant maintain you re army you have basicly lost and its only gonna snowball against you at that point.

Tomato  [developer] 29 Nov, 2017 @ 11:31am 
Originally posted by lucaskohl:

And please change the 20 % attrition maybe reduce it a little cause at the moment you cant maintain you re army you have basicly lost and its only gonna snowball against you at that point.

20% attrition?
Akestro 29 Nov, 2017 @ 12:04pm 
without any mods but yours a had 20 % attrition with all troops as germany from the start,
at least all the troops for that wasnt enough grain there
Tomato  [developer] 29 Nov, 2017 @ 12:07pm 
Grain doesn't cause attrition, and I haven't edited the attrition values at all. Are you looking at the attrition rate FOR the rations equipment?
Akestro 29 Nov, 2017 @ 1:00pm 
No its cause of Bad supply and now i get 30% of attrition slowly going up from 0 to 30%
i also had some equipment attrition ranging from 11 to 25 % when the units WERENT excersising our fighting just standing still
Akestro 29 Nov, 2017 @ 1:02pm 
is there a possibility that this is just an visual bug cause its not draning any manpower at all at least my army isnt shrinking in size tbh no idea
pierre 29 Nov, 2017 @ 1:05pm 
we mite need soe more grain for australia for they are aswell privided grain for the british empire
Grog 29 Nov, 2017 @ 3:16pm 
I personally like the resource scarcity and urgency but also sometimes like to see more of it, you could have an event pop up at the start that lets you choose between the scarce version (default) or abundant version which just adds more goodies worldwide so both crowds of folks would be happy c:
Edit: Another possible solution could be to add very expensive buildings that provide grain (something like nuclear reactor cost that provides 5 grain or something) so you aren't up ♥♥♥♥ creek when you're blockaded per se, but you will be for a while if you can't afford to build the farms
Last edited by Grog; 29 Nov, 2017 @ 3:19pm
Model 10 Gang 29 Nov, 2017 @ 5:54pm 
Im just going to have to state that playing as the PRC is just plain unfun, as they have no resources and have to split their factories between the new items. PRC realy needs more resources or something to slow down the japanese war machine so the attrision can slow them down. Right now the japanese just roll over the ROC and then suround and crush you while your 15 divs are struggling to say alive.

EDIT: I would support resource buildings like in modern day mod or a continous focus to gain more resources
Last edited by Model 10 Gang; 29 Nov, 2017 @ 8:53pm
Aschenbrenner 1 Dec, 2017 @ 7:20pm 
I think by increaseing the cost of factories, specifically civilian ones you could counter the second point making them worth more than trading away for something thats only a few conquests away.

For the first point you could add a little grain to places like Germany and the UK maybe just 1 or 2 but something would be better than 0.
Nightrad 2 Dec, 2017 @ 11:26am 
It feels like it costs too much resources to produce rations, when playing as germany or italy.
Fun 5 Dec, 2017 @ 3:27pm 
I think the resources are too low.
Miles Conagher 26 Jan, 2018 @ 3:00pm 
Originally posted by 50 APM gaming:
Im just going to have to state that playing as the PRC is just plain unfun, as they have no resources and have to split their factories between the new items. PRC realy needs more resources or something to slow down the japanese war machine so the attrision can slow them down. Right now the japanese just roll over the ROC and then suround and crush you while your 15 divs are struggling to say alive.

EDIT: I would support resource buildings like in modern day mod or a continous focus to gain more resources
It would make sense to have a farm building for grain.
DJLOGAN 14 Feb, 2018 @ 4:11am 
I would like to see grain being consumed by the whole population/manpower pool to ensure the constant realistic demand. Big populations are big consumers of grain either produced or imported. This could perhaps be replicated by placing a negative modifier to grain production based on population size eg 1 Grain is required to support one hundred thousand people or one per million people. Any surplus could then be used to produce rations.

A simple balancing act would be the same amount of grain is produced globally to feed the population at the start of the game globally This replicates market forces and the supply equals demand. With grain distributed globally based on the historical information of production at the time some nations are winners and others loosers. If required an adjustment to civil infastructure could also be made to meet some of the more glaring imbalances to fix the haves and have-nots.

A surplus to feed your growing army is created by either becoming more efficient, increasing productivity or opening up more land for development by building more farms. These farms would be relatively cheap to produce but lock up valuable building slots and production capacity to produce in the short term. It would also allow poorer areas to have a path to economic development as they invest in agriculture to fund their urban development by trading with the more affluent parts of the world. An additional modifier may be to have different consumption based on core vs non core populations

Negative balances could trigger negative productivity, national unity, political drift and population growth modifiers. In wartime it would accelerate a nation's decision to capitulate like how the growing unrest at home affected both Germany's and Russia's capitulations and to seek a negotiated peace in WWI. In peace time would impact development and if it was severe enough it would cause mass population decline replicating the effects that forced collectivisation had in Russia and China where the decline in agricultural output was not being balanced by replacing the shortfalls by trade or the mass migrations of people throughout history towards prosperity and away from hardship.

Random events once a year could trigger bumper crops and droughts/blights that would give nations bonus civilian factories as they trade away their surplus to those nations whose plans for expansion & development are curtailed by the need to keep their people fed. The weather will now affect both your preparations as well as the conduct of the war increasing variation and preventing the calculations of the perfect preparations for war.

To counter these effects, Strategic decisions for rationing would reduce impact of the national unity hit and reduce the population's demand by a set % or pursue a guns-vs-butter policy and feed them your surplus to keep them fat and happy. Alternatively choose to implement harsher restrictions that are required to keep a hungry populace in line. Decisions to increase manpower would also affect a nation's ability to feed itself hastening the decline. Often these features are "set-and-forget" that players never seem to need to adjust once a game begins, now they may require the expenditure of political capital to remedy an unexpected change in circumstances or fund development in other areas. Strategic decisions have broader impact and force tougher decision making.

This could have a number of spin off effects. As the effect of absorbing those densly urbanized and developed European nations create even more mouths to feed but seperating them from the colonial empires that previously supported them. Valuble production slots can then be used to expand your agricultural base or look elsewhere to seek out even greater "Lebensraum" before you chew through your stockpile of rations. In quieter parts of the globe otherwise limited nations now have new options for game play as they can now develop while maintaining good relationships with their trading partners to sell their surplus and fund future growth. Economic blockades in peacetime and attacking convoy routes in war would now be more effective weapons. Japan absorbing all those millions of Chinese in the urban coastal regions without the food supplies now act as a milstone around their neck and attrition takes its toll untill they capture those foodbowl regions as well, while China now has a tradable surplus to fund their war effort.
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