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Crusader Kings II >  Workshop > Loup's Workshop > When the World Stopped Making Sense > Discussions
When the World Stopped Making Sense
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El Atrocidad 13 Apr, 2020 @ 5:15pm
Taking a Look at the Sassanids.
Hi!

First time i get the chance to play the mod, as it previously was not released for the holy fury patch, and I'm all excited to try it out. As a Persian myself and avid sassanid fan, i decided to play the Gothic wars start as nonr other than the Mighty Khosrow I .

Right of the bat I'm surprised by the amount of attention to details. Khosrow's traits and stats perfectly reflect the type of ruler he was and having the Taq Kasra wonder in Ctesiphon is a really neat work. I'm also happy to see the unique goverment for the Sassanids, especially since they can raid and loot, as this was a staple for them particularly against Roman Syria.

The Nowruz flavour events and the zoroastrian flavor in general is amazing and shows a research well done.

There are however issues which i will point out, most of them concerning borders. For a mod that has this amount of particular attention to details, it boggles my mind that in starts pre-dating the Gothic wars, there is an independent Amardian/Mazani Chalcedonian kingdom. This is ahistorical on so many levels. Tabarestan was literally one of the last places to remain zoroastrian, yet somehow they are christians and Amardian under sassanid control. Amardians are so old, they even pre-date the Indo European migration into Iran and at this point in time this territory should be a satrapy, under the control of the Ispahbudhan family, zoroastrian, and under Sassanid rule.


To the east we have the Hephthalites which were a constant pain to deal with for the Sassanids, however, it doesn't make sense for them to hold Kabulistan as a tributary, this might have been the case for the reigns of Peroz, and Balash, however by the time of the Gothic wars, this territory should be under Persian rule. Hephthalites should be limited to their own territory to be dealt with by Khosrow, as they were historically. Even if you tweak the start date to the year 600 and the reign of Khosrow II, they still hold this territory which is completely ahistorical.

Finally we have the Lakhmids who for some very odd reason, control Ahvaz in certain starts, this is also quite weird and makes no sense, as Ahvaz roughly corresponds to Susa and the Lakhmids had no control even near to this territory, instead being limited to Al-Hira and its surroundings, which can be represented by the several provinces around it, but control over Ahvaz? This was never the case.

Now moving on from all the border stuff, i have a general suggestion regarding names. Persian ones in particular. In vanilla regardless of whether you're a Zoroastrian or a Muslim Persian, the list of names used for Persian characters also includes Arabic and Muslim names. This always bothered me. However seeing a pre-Islamic Persian Zoroastrian priest named Ruhollah, truely breaks all immersion and traumatizes my soul on a new level. I suggest the Arabic/Muslim names be removed from the Persian name pool for this period.

Now regarding the Eranshahr government type, while i understand that the sheer amounts of manpower that the Sassanids have to offer justifies the -20 percent morale of armies, i really struggle to see how can you EVER keep your vassals even remotely happy with the minus 40 opinnion malus, Khosrow has the genius trait and insanely high stewardship and diplomacy stats, and he can never keep vassals happy, let alone another Shahanshah. I would say the whole tribal-esque system where your vassals are called into wars is very nice and represents how the empire worked with the seven great houses and their armies. You get a whopping bonus to retiune maintenance, however with the tech level of this time are you ever going to have any meaningful amount of retinues? At the start you can have a single Aswaran unit. 250 men. It doesn't do anything. I would say the removal of both the opinnion malus (or at least lowering it) as well as the retiune maintenance bonus would help.

I believe the mod is extremely well made and well researched with precise attention to details, however, here and there you see VERY odd and ahistorical things and with the Sassanids being my favourite empire, i decided to point out these issues to further immerse this underrated and amazing period of Persian history. Once again congratulations on a mod well made and i hope to see at least the border, and naming issues addressed in the future. Keep it up!

Last edited by El Atrocidad; 13 Apr, 2020 @ 5:15pm
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Showing 1-3 of 3 comments
Loup  [developer] 14 Apr, 2020 @ 10:17am 
Originally posted by Parses Narseh:
To the east we have the Hephthalites which were a constant pain to deal with for the Sassanids, however, it doesn't make sense for them to hold Kabulistan as a tributary, this might have been the case for the reigns of Peroz, and Balash, however by the time of the Gothic wars, this territory should be under Persian rule. Hephthalites should be limited to their own territory to be dealt with by Khosrow, as they were historically. Even if you tweak the start date to the year 600 and the reign of Khosrow II, they still hold this territory which is completely ahistorical.
So you suggest that from 530 and onwards Kabulistan should be a part of the Sassanids?

Originally posted by Parses Narseh:
Finally we have the Lakhmids who for some very odd reason, control Ahvaz in certain starts, this is also quite weird and makes no sense, as Ahvaz roughly corresponds to Susa and the Lakhmids had no control even near to this territory, instead being limited to Al-Hira and its surroundings, which can be represented by the several provinces around it, but control over Ahvaz? This was never the case.
The province of Khwuzestan which contains Ahvaz is defined as Persian in history, I will look if there is a big here.

Originally posted by Parses Narseh:
Now moving on from all the border stuff, i have a general suggestion regarding names. Persian ones in particular. In vanilla regardless of whether you're a Zoroastrian or a Muslim Persian, the list of names used for Persian characters also includes Arabic and Muslim names. This always bothered me. However seeing a pre-Islamic Persian Zoroastrian priest named Ruhollah, truely breaks all immersion and traumatizes my soul on a new level. I suggest the Arabic/Muslim names be removed from the Persian name pool for this period.
I agree with this suggestion, but it would be helpful if someone more familiar with Arabic and Persian names could point out which should be removed or not, since that would save us some time. Could you maybe give us a list?

Originally posted by Parses Narseh:
Now regarding the Eranshahr government type, while i understand that the sheer amounts of manpower that the Sassanids have to offer justifies the -20 percent morale of armies, i really struggle to see how can you EVER keep your vassals even remotely happy with the minus 40 opinnion malus, Khosrow has the genius trait and insanely high stewardship and diplomacy stats, and he can never keep vassals happy, let alone another Shahanshah. I would say the whole tribal-esque system where your vassals are called into wars is very nice and represents how the empire worked with the seven great houses and their armies. You get a whopping bonus to retiune maintenance, however with the tech level of this time are you ever going to have any meaningful amount of retinues? At the start you can have a single Aswaran unit. 250 men. It doesn't do anything. I would say the removal of both the opinnion malus (or at least lowering it) as well as the retiune maintenance bonus would help.
Note that the Eranshahr government also gets the bonuses of what in vanilla is Imperial Administration, as well as imprisonment. The vassal opinion is a big malus, but it is not -40, rather -25, often compensated after the early years by the long reign opinion bonus. It serves to represent the rebellious nature of the Sassanid nobility as well.

Originally posted by Parses Narseh:
I believe the mod is extremely well made and well researched with precise attention to details, however, here and there you see VERY odd and ahistorical things and with the Sassanids being my favourite empire, i decided to point out these issues to further immerse this underrated and amazing period of Persian history. Once again congratulations on a mod well made and i hope to see at least the border, and naming issues addressed in the future. Keep it up!
Thank you for the kind words.
#1
El Atrocidad 15 Apr, 2020 @ 5:05am 
From the reign of Peroz onwards it makes sense that the Sassanids should be weak in the eastern frontier however under reign of Khosrow he decisively crushed the Hephitalites and the east was restored even into modern day Turkmenistan upwards to the Oxus, i understand if adding all of this territory would make sassanids OP but having Kabulistan out of Sassanid control under Khosrow is both ahistorical and border gore. I suggest for balancing purposes, Hephitalites should be restricted to their own territory and even have some or most of their tributaries taken away in the Gothic wars start and the rule of the dukes, with Kabulistan under Sassanid rule. As giving the Sassanids their actual territory would probably make them broken.

I am Persian myself an can verify for you which names are Persian and which ones are not, however i don't know how to access the names, i have however joined the public discord server, with the same username, and can siphon out Arabic names if you provide me with the list, i can even add some more historical and authentic names maybe.


The thing that i really struggle to understand is the Chalcedonian kingdom of Amardia, this one is straight up made up and i can't fathom the logic behind having such a kingdom in the mod, in any of the start dates. Tabarestan was Zoroastrian and under Sassanid rule from the rise of Ardashir I, and even remained under the control of Sassanid cadet branches even for couple of centuries after their fall.
#2
Loup  [developer] 15 Apr, 2020 @ 8:24am 
Originally posted by Parses Narseh:
The thing that i really struggle to understand is the Chalcedonian kingdom of Amardia, this one is straight up made up and i can't fathom the logic behind having such a kingdom in the mod, in any of the start dates. Tabarestan was Zoroastrian and under Sassanid rule from the rise of Ardashir I, and even remained under the control of Sassanid cadet branches even for couple of centuries after their fall.
Sorry, I missed this while replying. To my understanding it represents Christian Gashnaspians who would have dominated the region until a Sassanid conquest in 528, according to the modder who made those changes.

Originally posted by Parses Narseh:
From the reign of Peroz onwards it makes sense that the Sassanids should be weak in the eastern frontier however under reign of Khosrow he decisively crushed the Hephitalites and the east was restored even into modern day Turkmenistan upwards to the Oxus, i understand if adding all of this territory would make sassanids OP but having Kabulistan out of Sassanid control under Khosrow is both ahistorical and border gore. I suggest for balancing purposes, Hephitalites should be restricted to their own territory and even have some or most of their tributaries taken away in the Gothic wars start and the rule of the dukes, with Kabulistan under Sassanid rule. As giving the Sassanids their actual territory would probably make them broken.
Okay, we will see how the setup can be modified then.

Originally posted by Parses Narseh:
I am Persian myself an can verify for you which names are Persian and which ones are not, however i don't know how to access the names, i have however joined the public discord server, with the same username, and can siphon out Arabic names if you provide me with the list, i can even add some more historical and authentic names maybe.
I can send you the name list on Discord via private message then.
#3
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