Total War: ATTILA

Total War: ATTILA

Medieval Kingdoms 1212 AD Base Pack - Campaign Alpha
Silberfuchs 5 Feb, 2021 @ 5:00pm
The only good thing about this mod are the models :(
Hi there!

I thought I would like to leave some feedback about how the mod plays out for me, and sadly, I have to say, it's disappointing (not avoid saying infuriating) in almost every regard. I have now played the Electorate of Trier, Toulouse and the Crusader States (going on crusade every campaign because it's an iconic event to me, and I wanted to experience it like back in M:TW2.):

- Campaign map:

The gameplay is incredibly slow, and most of the time you spend just waiting turn for turn, until you are able to do something. Wanna attack the next settlement? Wait until religious unrest is quelled enough so you don't immediately have a rebellion once you leave town. Want to build up an army? Wait several turns to recruit a single unit and then wait a few more for the next one. Want to develop your cities further? In only 47 turns you will have the research ready to build the next level of your sanitation building and avoid having your town drown in ♥♥♥♥ and people who died of the plague. Building a research increasing building? Needs research, and also comes with negative modifiers which require more buildings to be built to keep up order in your citiy. Also because of the long waiting times and two turns being a year already characters die left and right without ever having done something meaningful really, at rank 2-4. Getting a high rank character? Forget it!


- Battle:

Catapults have the same range like towers and archers. It completely leads the idea of artillery ad absurdum. Also unit balance is completely messed up. I don't know how often Saracen crossbowmen have bested two or three of my spearmen units in a row in melee. And on top of that they easily rake in 100-200 ranged kills. But don't fret, I have my own crossbow units! When they make 20 kills a battle on range I'd say that's a pretty good result for their average performance. Units rout and rally within a few seconds, even while being chased. A half dead bodyguard unit (like 7-10 men remainig) of a dead lord charged my cavalry unit while having -72 morale, killed like 8-9 men and only then decided the battle was over, because all other units were already fleeing, army losses penalty was active for like 1-2 minutes, but it was enough to wipe my own half dead cavalry unit which did not make it out of the battle alive.

It's a complete joke. It feels like the AI is getting hefty secret stat bonuses against the player during battle. I am seriously afraid sending in a half strength cavalry unit to charge a Muslim archer or crossbow unit, they will outright lose the fight in melee. Let alone some militia spearmen or something. If you want to kill archers in melee you need like dismounted knights at full strength or something.


I don't know, I really wanted to enjoy this mod, and I was following it for several years now. And now since the campaign map is finally available I am trying for a year now to enjoy it, but I can't, I just can't. I have thousands of hours in many other Total War titles, I know what I am doing, I am also knowledgeable enough in terms of medieval warfare in order to be able to judge how a fight between certain units should pan out. But in this mod I get my ass handed to me regularly, because my crossbowmen do ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ all battle long, while the enemy ranged units slaughter my own troops. And when I am not battling I am yawning at the campaign map, waiting to be able or allowed to do the next thing.

So far to me the mod is just pretty to look at, but a horror to play. 2/10. And I wanted so much to give it 10/10. :rcry:
Last edited by Silberfuchs; 6 Feb, 2021 @ 5:56am
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Showing 1-15 of 27 comments
ggstorms 30 Mar, 2021 @ 5:51pm 
You have to use cavalry different in this game, and it's far more realistic. In the vanilla version you could send in cavalry and completely massacre any ranged or light infantry unit as long as they aren't spearmen. In this mod you use cavalry to charge at the enemy, retreat and then charge them again in an attempt to break them.

This is how cavalry were used in actual warfare, to use the weight of the charge to break the enemy and cause them to retreat. If the charge failed and the enemy held, then their advantage would be gone and they would be bogged down in hand to hand fighting where lightly equipped troops are able to surround them and overwhelm them.
Silberfuchs 30 Mar, 2021 @ 7:35pm 
Originally posted by ggstorms:
This is how cavalry were used in actual warfare, to use the weight of the charge to break the enemy and cause them to retreat. If the charge failed and the enemy held, then their advantage would be gone and they would be bogged down in hand to hand fighting where lightly equipped troops are able to surround them and overwhelm them.

Even against archers which don't even have polearms, or shields?
Espigademaiz 3 Apr, 2021 @ 9:16am 
I like the slow paced campaign, more realistic. If you want to conquer one continent in a span of 20 years i dunno, play age of empires mate
Silberfuchs 3 Apr, 2021 @ 6:01pm 
Originally posted by Espigademaiz:
I like the slow paced campaign, more realistic. If you want to conquer one continent in a span of 20 years i dunno, play age of empires mate

I have nothing against slow paced, and it's not like I have a set number of years I want my campaign to take place in. But what I dislike is when the speed of the campaign doesn't match the span of years in such a way that you constantly keep replacing generals, governors and other positions with people, because your characters die like (may)flies basically. It's not about challenge or anything, just about tediousness, because managing your characters every other turn without meaningful impact is just annoying.
Last edited by Silberfuchs; 3 Apr, 2021 @ 6:04pm
Strategy Centered 7 Jun, 2021 @ 11:39am 
What a needlessly rude post considering youre playing a FREE total conversion mod. Get over yourself.
B.F.M II 16 Nov, 2021 @ 2:00am 
The campaign is meant to be slow,as you need to make sure you got the right buildings to make sure your faction doesn't crumble from within. Take your time looking through the building browser and see what suits the situation (some building effects are cross-province effects). Characters for me don't die too quickly so I have time to develop them properly at least to rank 6-8, though agents are rather redundant as the AI hardly uses them.

For battles, different ammo types have different ranges, and standard shot usually has the longest range for most artillery bar cannons. The same applies to missile units, but with the addition of extended shot which lets you shoot over obstacles and much farther. Take note that different types of missile weapons have different ranges by default depending on origin (Crossbows and European archer variants on heavy shot have around 140 range in general, while Eastern and Orthodox faction archers on heavy shot have 150 range bar certain militia archer units).

From the way you described how your units performed vs the AI, its definitely a you problem. Crossbows are straight-shooters and can't arc their shots, so you had a situation where enemy crossbows had direct line of sight on your units' rear and *unloaded* into them (probably a melee blob judging by the kills).

That nearly-dead bodyguard unit that charged your half-dead cavalry and killed it would make sense if you just stood there and took the charge with them like an rookie instead of counter-charging. Units rallying after routing from time to time makes more sense than running away permanently, and its a part of Attila's programming, so I don't get the nit-picky complaint about that.

About not being able to run down missile units with half-dead cavalry, you just don't. They were already worn out and badly mangled, so sending the equivalent of walking corpses on ponies at a fresh unit of archers or crossbows (especially crossbow sergeant variants) is practically suicide.

Finally, about whether the AI gets hidden bonuses, they don't get those unless you're playing on harder difficulties. It's more likely that you made some horrendous tactical mistakes caused by either judging situations poorly, bringing the wrong units, not using units correctly or all the above. Kinda puts your 'able to judge how a fight between certain units should pan out' claim in question doesn't it?

TL;DR

Understand what things do, don't be Crassus and get good scrub.
Silberfuchs 16 Nov, 2021 @ 10:13am 
Originally posted by B.F.M II:
The campaign is meant to be slow,as you need to make sure you got the right buildings to make sure your faction doesn't crumble from within. Take your time looking through the building browser and see what suits the situation (some building effects are cross-province effects). Characters for me don't die too quickly so I have time to develop them properly at least to rank 6-8, though agents are rather redundant as the AI hardly uses them.

I already noticed that the campaign pace was not a bug but meant to be like that, and that's what I am complaining about. I see no appeal in adding turns to this game where you do nothing or build a building or two, and then have to watch the enemy AI banners parade across the top of your screen. The gameplay should be fast enough so that you are moving armies, conquering and defending something pretty much every few turns. Everything else is just stale.

Originally posted by B.F.M II:
For battles, different ammo types have different ranges, and standard shot usually has the longest range for most artillery bar cannons. The same applies to missile units, but with the addition of extended shot which lets you shoot over obstacles and much farther. Take note that different types of missile weapons have different ranges by default depending on origin (Crossbows and European archer variants on heavy shot have around 140 range in general, while Eastern and Orthodox faction archers on heavy shot have 150 range bar certain militia archer units).

I was complaining about catapults specifically. Check out their range.

Originally posted by B.F.M II:
From the way you described how your units performed vs the AI, its definitely a you problem. Crossbows are straight-shooters and can't arc their shots, so you had a situation where enemy crossbows had direct line of sight on your units' rear and *unloaded* into them (probably a melee blob judging by the kills).

What I was describing was that spearmen, a dedicated melee unit, routinely lose against Saracen crossbowmen, NOT a dedicated melee units, IN MELEE. Explain to me how that balancing makes sense.

The other thing I was complaining about was that when the AI uses ranged units they are much more effective than when I do. I am fully aware of the concept of direct line of fire, I played everything from musketeers in Medieval 2 to Dwarfs in checkerboard formation in WH2. I am aware of the concept. What I am complaining about are simply better stats or results for the AI under identical conditions. Which might be because I actually DO PLAY ON HIGH DIFFICULTIES. I just find the effect to be ridiculously exaggerated.

Originally posted by B.F.M II:
That nearly-dead bodyguard unit that charged your half-dead cavalry and killed it would make sense if you just stood there and took the charge with them like an rookie instead of counter-charging. Units rallying after routing from time to time makes more sense than running away permanently, and its a part of Attila's programming, so I don't get the nit-picky complaint about that.

OR! MAYBE! I was not just standing there and took the charge like a rookie, but I was fighting a different unit already. And they charge me frontally through that units. What would you suggest I should have done in that Situation, Wellington? They were -73 morale, but took way too long to rout.

Also, if you would have any experience in Attila or other Total War games, you'd know that fleeing untis WHICH ARE BEING CHASED actually DO NOT RALLY. They keep fleeing. "Chasing off the battlefield" is a thing, you know? But not in this mod. In this mod they go "Oh ♥♥♥♥, we're losing, let's save our skin! Oh dang they are still following us, welp, I guess we then still have to kick their butt anyways..." Now THAT makes sense...

Originally posted by B.F.M II:
About not being able to run down missile units with half-dead cavalry, you just don't. They were already worn out and badly mangled, so sending the equivalent of walking corpses on ponies at a fresh unit of archers or crossbows (especially crossbow sergeant variants) is practically suicide.

Not in other games, no. Not in Rome 2. Not in Medieval 2. Not in Attila. If I send out the currently best available heavy cav at like 25% strength against a full ranged unit, they will win. Danish War Clerics will defeat Yeoman archers. Parthian Nobles will decimate Germanic Slingers. First Wave Lancers will win against Celtic Huntsmen.

There is no reason why knights, the best and strongest fighters of their era, can't in against lightly armed and armored tropps in melee. But melee defense for ranged units is just way too high in this mod, it should be around half of what it currently is.

Originally posted by B.F.M II:
Finally, about whether the AI gets hidden bonuses, they don't get those unless you're playing on harder difficulties. It's more likely that you made some horrendous tactical mistakes caused by either judging situations poorly, bringing the wrong units, not using units correctly or all the above. Kinda puts your 'able to judge how a fight between certain units should pan out' claim in question doesn't it?

TL;DR

Understand what things do, don't be Crassus and get good scrub.


Thank you for not explaining to me that I need to right click on the battlefield if I want to move units. Your condescending tone totally led me to believe you'd do that, despite me having thousands of hours across many different Total War titles. But yeah, me disagreeing with balance decisions can only mean I am a bad player.

Thanks for digging up this age old topic to basically only insult my intelligence and competence at the game.
Last edited by Silberfuchs; 16 Nov, 2021 @ 10:37am
B.F.M II 16 Nov, 2021 @ 10:46pm 
You did basically moan about how 1212 was balanced and complained about everything, while being condescending to the mod devs. How did you not expect people like me to clap back this hard? And you calling me condescending? ♥♥♥♥♥ reread your initial post and your reply to me, THAT'S condescending. I was being polite to you, but since you decided to be an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, I'll do what you did and treat you like you treat the devs.

Artillery is balanced differently in this mod, and you'd know that if you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ paid attention. Same with the infantry, take note of what type of unit you have up against the enemy. Most sergeant-class crossbowmen could be melee capable in a pinch, maybe even beat up spears but again, you seem to have paid ZERO attention to what units you engaged.

Routing units that get chased and coming back it not the mods fault. It's likely a bug from the damn game being modded so heavily due to bad optimization, so blaming 1212 for that is the equivalent of saying that my ♥♥♥♥ house collapsed in on itself because the interior decor guy
redesigned the wallpaper and furniture.

And you moaning about how everything is balanced and trying to pull in vanilla Rome 2 is just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ dumb. Rome 2's balancing was ♥♥♥♥♥♥, and so is Attila's to a greater extent. Badly outnumbered units, regardless of what they are, shouldn't be able to rofflestomp others so easily, especially when exhausted.

I've had experienced Rome 2, Shogun 2 and Attila on vanilla, the Fall of the Eagles, DEI and Medieval 1212, all of which balances thing differently and of which I have all but mastered at this point, why? Because I learned and adapted. I. ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Paid. Attention.

One last thing: If you play on higher difficulties and then complain about the AI's hidden buffs on said difficulties, DON'T ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ PLAY ON HIGHER DIFFICULTIES THEN.
Mayonesy 17 Nov, 2021 @ 5:44am 
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BraveSirRobin 27 Dec, 2021 @ 9:55pm 
This must be Texas roadhouse because I smell BEEF
Ad'Nar 17 Jan, 2022 @ 4:50pm 
Complaints like this almost always are due to strategies. Sometimes some work, and sometimes some dont. I dont get the part about your family dying off before you even do anything though. Its more and likely the way you play. Maybe you like to sit back and build up before hand. If you start out with 2 armies, you can always combine into one so that you can conquer while the other recruits. If your a veteran of total wars, just forget about the strategies that worked for them. Also anything above normal is meant to be crazy hard, more so than vanilla.
Tarlanthir el Turco 19 Jan, 2022 @ 9:01am 
I would try some of the submods if I were you that made it much more enjoyable for me. I recognize almost all of your criticisms as my own before I got these submods.

Things like 2x research speed/4tpy/building costs reduced/one turn recruitment and such. Just browse a bit and take the ones you'd like.

Helped me play this mod, where before I just couldn't really get into it.
RIP HULKAMANIA 19 Jan, 2022 @ 3:18pm 
If anything, I find it too easy even on VH. Granted the new update made AI actually attack each others and can build large empire as a result, making me fight non-passive factions.
Nyarlanthotep 21 Jan, 2022 @ 10:45am 
I actually find the opposite: the mod is very close to how Medieval 2 felt: taking up new territory is hard, costly and you need to convert it culturally/religiously. You can get ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over food and other concerns as well, and the limits (governors, etc) really make you decide strategically about your kingdom.

Also battles are better than anything R2, vanilla Atilla or and of the past Total wars offered: not too long, but impactful and immersive

Sorry you didn't enjoy it, but the mod as it is is good in campaign aside from a couple of unfinished factions. As indicated also above, you can try submods and transform the mod into your desired sense if you enjoy the period/units
DBK 5 Feb, 2022 @ 8:17pm 
Im currently struggling with the Papal Relations (playing as Flanders) I can't figure out what the metric is for this element. Is the papal relation scale 1-10? and if so I think maybe for Flanders at least, there is an issue with -/+ buildings like (Market place/Theatre Troop) not carrying over in to the Papal States deplomacy Green/Red metrics.. i love that challenge but just feels unfinished or maybe this is just a Flanders bug?? I have built Theatre troop +religion buildings in 5 provinces but that doesnt carry over into the green positive relationship mechanic with papal states, when i look at the things affecting my standing with them it should mention any Good or Bad buildings that i have, if i have a trade dock and a market, then i should have a -2 affect on the diplomacy screen, and if I have 5 theatre troop buildings i should also see a +5 green affect but this isnt the case..

also, is the papal states relationship even the determining factor for the Popes respect at all? im just not sure if there related? i dont want to throw money at the papal states if it has no bearing on my standing with the Pope. It would be awesome (and hopefully a simple fix) to define more clearly exactly what is affecting this metric, and what the effects +/- on this system are when, for instance, looting/sacking or executing after battle. Maybe just add some info there that, "this will increase/decrease" papal standing.. From what i can tell the intention was for the buildings with the Green or Red stonehinge icon are the determining factors but its either bugged or i dont get it. The mod is great, you guys have done a superb job here.. Unfortunately im getting excommunicated around turn 20 which is breaking the game for me (at least on the French/Normandy based factions)..

People on this thread seem pretty knowledgeable so just hoping somebody can enlighten me a little. I thought perhaps, this would be fixed with the college of cardinals addition? maybe for now you could update the mod to disable this feature? doesnt seem fair to just get excommunicated as a default, and have no options to strategize this metric..

Last thing, shouldnt the Cathedral provide a +1 in this system rather than that Theatre troupe building?? and for each level of upgrade maybe a +2, +3 etc?? and the other 2 religous building maybe dont provide this bonus just the cathedral? that would make sense, so if you are taking negative hits with the pope, building 4-5 cathedrals should be the answer, not the "theatre" building?
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