Discussion with HisImperialMajestyYoloSwaggins (that nickname bruh), moved here
Posted by them: (Oct 23, 2018)
Hey, a couple of these seem a bit OP, like Buckshot, it now does 150% dmg as opposed to the 100% the original did, you just added an extra target. I think the dmg should be 33% per target, the xtra damage taken is also OP, it should be dodge chance reduction (compared to what bandit gunners do).

Sidearm also does way too much dmg, it should be somewhere around 50-60%

It's just my opinion, you tell me if you agree or not, but atm I wouldn't get this mod because it seems to make musketeer too OP.

My response:
@HisImperialMajestyYoloSwaggins Ah, I've been waiting for someone to tell me that Buckshot's OP :) I'm not an expert nor a veteran of this game so I can be wrong but most of the changes I made in the mod are based on already existing skills. For example, Highwayman's Grapeshot Blast which is a 3-target AOE skill also does -50% DMG as well as Hellion's Breakthrough.

I agree that its debuff can be pretty OP when abused but in order to maximize its potential you'd have to spend at least 3 rounds. So, with two lvl 5-6 Musketeers the max bonus I believe would be +120% DMG taken for each target which is a huge number by itself and could be even higher with some proper trinkets and camp buffs.
However, every character has only one action per round so maybe with all of these DMG buffing trinkets and camping skills the bettter option would be to just use a single target skill such as Aimed Shot to remove enemies' back ranks. Also you need to take into account target's debuff resistance. Sure you can buff your debuff chance with some trinkets but you'd have to sacrifice your DMG so it's always a tradeoff.

The same thing can be said about Sidearm. While it can be reasonable to nerf it a little bit (by 10% maybe), the 40-50% dmg reduction seems too much since most people wouldn't even consider using it if it did so little damage. Moreover, it's unusual for single target skills to deal 50% DMG. It'd be reasonable for a stun skill to do 50% damage but Sidearm isn't one and in my opinion self-repositiong is a weaker option than stunning enemies.

I hope my answer wasn't too long :) btw I may reconsider in the future but I'm afraid I'll need more feedback to make these changes. And if you think that this mod doesn't suit your needs there're plenty of other musketeer mods around.

Posted by HisImperialMajestyYoloSwaggins: (Oct 23, 2018)
You have to put skills into perspective. Highwayman grapeshot blast may deal more dmg, but it's on a completely different character. Neither of us designed this game so we don't know exactly how the balance think-thanks decided what they decided.
The AOE stun, for example, is overpowered because it's on a backline dmg character.
The only 2 aoe stuns in the game belong to the Plague Doc and the Hellion.
Plague Doc stun is on a character that does literally no upfront damage and is a support class with some DoT applications.
Hellion Stun only hits front ranks and it puts a hefty debuff on her (-20% damage).
Having a 4th rank character, that can dmg enemy 4th rank be able to stun 2-3 is way too much.

The 3 target dmg abilites:
Grapeshot blast has terrible accuraccy and requires the Highwayman to be specifically rank 2 or 3. Also, it's on the highwayman, a pure dmg character that does literally nothing but dmg.
By comparison, the base Mustketeer/Arbalest was designed as a back rank-to-back rank character who also has a lot of utility (anti stealth, heal, knockback, etc.)
Hellion breakthrough moves her forward and cannot be used from number 1 spot (the place where you want her to be so she can use Iron Swan) AND it debuffs her, same as her stun.
Also, Grapeshot blast debuff is fairly minor, 4% crits received. Your is +20% dmg received.
The reposition spell is just that: a reposition spell. You have it there in case you get shuffled, same as Holy lance from Crusader. Holy Lance, however, moves him forward, towards danger, whereas yours gets your character away. I would have it do 60% dmg and do 'back 2'. Remember, the context of the ability matters.
Also, Holy Lance does not work from Rank 2. So you can only use it if you are out of position. If you wanted to keep your sidearm as it is, make it so that it's only rank 1-2 (I would still make it do back 2).

My response:
Yes, we may not know about what happens behind the scenes but it doesn’t mean that every single skill in the original game is perfectly balanced. The developers of this game are people too so they can make good or bad decisions. And maybe, HWM’s Blast is actually a trash skill that needs to be buffed in order to be somewhat useful.

STUN
PD’s blights are undoubtedly the best in the game and while her damage isn’t upfront, she can still deal tons of damage to all ranks and her attacks also melt through enemies’ protection ...and she also has 2 powerful stuns.

Hellion’s stun to hit front ranks is actually a good thing since you want to kill back ranks first anyway, therefore, there’s no reason to also stun them. It’s hard to argue with self-debuffing so I think that’s a good point but she also does more dmg than my Musk in general and can target all ranks as well.

BUCKSHOT
Buckshot has much better accuracy compared to HWM’s skill but that’s Musk’s specialty (at least I feel like it should be). HWM has no problem with being in rank 2, 3 since it’s his usual position and he also has options to move himself back and forward. Also you compared his lvl 1 debuff to musk’s lvl 5 (which to be honest doesn’t change anything since musk’s debuff, I agree, is much stronger).

The original Musketeer (more like Arbalest) was designed as a back-rank DD/support/off-healer. But to make her unique (the reason this mod exists) I had to carve a niche for her thus she’s more of a damage dealer now and less support.
Hellion’s skill is both an AOE and a reposition ability so with the debuff I think the whole thing balances itself out and is still stronger than a simple AOE attack.

SIDEARM
Using Sidearm has the same goal as Crusader’s Holy Lance – to put you closer to preferred ranks. The only difference is that since Crusader’s mainly a frontliner and most of his powerful attacks are done in ranks 1, 2 thus it’s logical for his reposition skill to move him forward. But because the Musketeer is mostly a back-rank damage dealer, her respective skill moves her backwards. Also having a 3rd rank option doesn’t really change anything for Musketeer herself since it’s better to use Aimed Shot anyway but it makes possible to do a few new combos with other characters (like Abom’s Slam or MaA’s Stun). And by the way, Crusader’s lance doesn’t have any damage penalty but by your logic it should have.
I don’t think making it a ‘Back 2’ skill is a good idea either since it’d make Musk’s basic Move useless and make it only easier for her to get back to ranks 3, 4.

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not against your proposed changes but they’re quite significant and before I do anything I should think about possible consequences.
P.S. Sometimes I feel like this whole argument is rather pointless because this topic is very subjective and everyone have their own opinion.

Moved the longest discussion with Spartaclauz here
Posted by Spartaclauz: (Jul 12, 2020)
hrmmm...i've been browsing around the workshop trying to find a way to buff arbalest and musketeer, they just feel so ♥♥♥♥ to play with, and so far your mod seem to be the most attractive.
i'm glad you put pictures of the detail changes, trinket and camping skill, since i haven't got any musketeer (is the picture up to date? or is there changes?)
However....i'm kinda iffed by some of the "overhaul" in the skill.
1. aimed shot, losing the crit chance is a pretty huge blow, i don't understand why change it to beasts dmg bonus? lowered base crit chance too, which doesn't make sense since she is sharpshooter.
have mixed feelings about these, at the same time she is less dependent on mark which is good, but at the same time losing crit that gives stress heal is sad
2. The Skeet shot, probably my worst gripe for this mod. why the heck is it a buff? i can understand that the "clear mark" needs to go, since it makes the Swine God a pushover lol. but losing the de-stealth? THAT is a huge blow. that skill is so unique for me to counter Vet and Champ dungeon against stealthers since it hits all of em. turning it into a HWM tracking shot is so weird, in real life skeet shot debuff the enemy, it doesn't make sense that it buffs you.
I can understand that the crit buff is necessary, with the loss of base crit chance and in aimed shot, but it's just so...weird....

i really want to use this mod, but i'm kinda afraid to take the leap when i see the changes to skeet shot. the other changes are great though, i can really feel a lot of thought is put into it

Any chance that you are thinking to change the skeet shot? maybe give the de-stealth component? pretty please?

My response:
@Spartaclauz, thank you for the feedback.
My goal wasn't to make musk objectively stronger but instead different from arb, that's why some stats like the crit chance or HP were nerfed. Basically, the crit chance is traded for more dmg which actually matches musk's guild description of a "dependable damage dealer". Despite having less base crit, the difference is just 2% and it's still on par with other classes that are considered damage dealers. Furthermore, there're options to increase it (trinkets, skeet shot, camping buffs).

Beast dmg bonus was more of a lore based decision. I read through all of her lines in the original dialogue files and found lots of references to game hunting or referring to enemies or the party as quarry, etc. To balance things out crit vs marked was replaced which again matches the focus on pure dmg vs crit dmg. In this sense she resembles the leper (well, in fact a way more versatile backline leper). Lastly, the "loss" of stress heals from crits is partially compensated with the new stress healing skill.

Skeet shot was a problematic skill to balance to say the least but I'm quite confident with how it works atm. See, I'm of the opinion that a good balanced class in this game shouldn't be able to deal with all kinds of threats on their own. Having a stun ability and a de-stealth makes the musketeer better than the arb overall. Imo from the game design perspective it's better not to have a clear answer for every situation. But then again anti-stealth skills in the game are usually reveal enemies to the light or somehow expose them which is not true for skeet shot. The devs attached a light effect to the animation, sure, but that's not how it works in real life. Irl skeet shooting is just a recreational or competitive activity which involves shooting small high speed moving targets in a short period of time. This is exactly what the effects of the skill are trying to capture.
Anyway, I'm always open to suggestions but rn I don't have plans to change anything significantly though I might reconsider in the future. Hmm I suppose I should give it some thought but the main issues for me would be that with the de-stealth the skill has to be usable more than once; the amount of targets, the duration and power of buffs. Oh, and yes, pictures are up to date.


Posted by Spartaclauz: (Jul 17, 2020)
Thank you for the reply! i have to agree with you about the Aimed Shot, after writing that comment, i mull over it for a couple of days and came to the conclusion that, it is probably for the best, compared to the crit vs mark. It's more reliable, fit the lore, and also shape the Musketeer role more clearly, compared to the requirement of mark to be decent.

so yeah, good job on that one :D

For the skeet shot.... while it is true that current recreational skeet shot is shooting moving airborne object, there's actually a reason how that activity came to be. The devs animation of it lighting up, is how "skeet shot" is used for hunting, way before it become recreational activity.
The object thrown and shot will emit sudden light (i think it was a magnesium based? i forgot where i stumble on that knowledge) similar to a flashbang.
From there, i think you get the idea how all the effect on the default skeet shot came to be.
The bright light reveal stealthed enemy
The startle makes the enemy lose focus(lose the mark), etc
well i'm just glad they didn't turn the startle into a whole enemy party stun XD that would be overpowered
So your current version of the skeet shot feels more like: "oh yeah i shot the object i feel good about myself" kind of buff, which is a pretty weird thing to do in battle

I can discuss more about how the skeet shot can be changed into, but i don't want to ramble on before making sure you understand what i meant about skeet shot

I tried out your mod, and i have to say....embolden is weak as hell, especially compared to other mod with embolden ability. The stress relief is very minimal and doesn't offer any combat buff for an ability that is titled embolden. The clear stun is waaaaay too situational to convince me to equip embolden. Which makes her loadout quite polarized since going smoke, sidearm, or even skeet shot buff offers more impact. it's just not worth it.

The mark skill, i noticed it lowers prot instead of dodge, making it similar to BH and HM. the question is....why?i actually consider Arb/Mskt mark to be superior, since it can make the difference of hitting or not hitting at all. Standardizing it like the others is a bad move, they lose the uniqueness and tactical ability only offerred by Arb/Mskt.

sorry for the long post, i played around with your mod and see the potential in it. i just feel it could be further improved to make the Musketeer a more unique hero with clear role that only she can do. Which is why i'm turned off by your skeet shot, you just turn it into a HWM tracking shot.
Well anyway, i hope we can further discuss her kit and potential change :D

My response:
Thanks again, this was a long answer indeed :)
I’ve never heard about light emitting skeet targets if they truly existed that could actually be the reason to add a de-stealth effect. I’ve read a few articles about skeet shooting but never found anything about illuminated skeets (except exploding skeets but that’s a contemporary invention). Though I admit that I’m no expert in this area and may be wrong. Still this game isn’t always historically accurate and so I might change the skill just for the reason of it being more usable and fun (and because current anim is kinda lame, I agree). Hmm, I’d like to keep a self-buff intact so I think I’d go with smth like:

DMG -100, ACC 95~115, targets 1+2+3+4, 1 use per battle;
Bypass Stealth/De-Stealth, Torch +5~+10, Buff self: +3~5 SPD, +10~15 ACC, +7~11 CRIT

Let me know if uses are important, there’s that horse-type enemy in farmstead that can go into stealth but aside from that 1 use should be enough I suppose.

Btw it’s actually funny how with added destealth the skill resembles HWM’s tracking shot even more than without it. I can see some similarities between them but this’s unintentional, in fact it’s based around one of jester’s skills.
Since there’s a 1000 char limit and your answer is very long I decided to post my responses to each of your points separately as I finish writing them. Sorry if I can’t address all your points in one answer it’s just too much to process :)

Some extra info I wanted to share:
To help you understand reasoning behind my approach to the class design this’s what I consider as staples of the reworked musketeer:
- good accuracy (obvious)
- anti-protection abilities (the development of muskets and firearms in general is the main reason why people eventually stopped using full-plate armor)
- marking synergy (again, very obvious; I can’t imagine this class without a marking ability)
- “hunting” skills (as I said before, this fits the lore)
- stress healing (I’ve seen this in other reworks and I really like this idea, makes the class more unique and different from arb)
- stun instead of knockback/pull (again, neat idea and stuns are more useful than knockback/pull anyway)
These elements are supported through her skillset, trinkets, stats, and more.

I’m concerned about stress heal being too weak. Have you tried it on champion difficulty dungeons? I can’t really test it out as I haven’t got a save with high lvl chars rn. It’s relatively weak on lower levels but other stress skills are too. I aimed for something in between jest’s/hm’s heal and cru’s heal in terms of power but maybe numbers are too low.

You know, the more I think about it the more I see that it’s still pretty weak even on lvl 5 and the lack of a combat buff is a good point too (clear stun is just a nice bonus). I’m not sure how it should be buffed, right now I’m thinking about buffing the actual numbers and adding one more effect to it. This could probably make it more appealing but I need to decide on the exact effect (could be -X% stress or smth more combat-oriented) and maybe rebalance a few trinkets.

About mark skill. I’ve mentioned why I changed it to -prot and that’s because firearms are good when dealing with armor. So it makes perfect sense to me when the mark applies -prot debuff. Another reason is that buckshot skill already has -dodge debuff and having 2 skills with the same debuff isn’t fun. If I changed mark skill I’d have to change buckshot’s debuff as well. And by the way I hope you don’t forget about the occultist who also has -dodge mark.
I’m not sure -dodge mark is definitely better than -prot mark. When you deal with dodgy enemies, I think you shouldn’t solely rely on marks. If you lack accuracy there’re trinkets, +acc buffs and quirks. Dodge debuff is pretty much useless if you can’t even hit an enemy in the first place, then again your debuff also has a chance to miss.
On the other hand, with prot enemies there’re only 3 options: reduce their prot, use armor piercing attacks, use bleed/blight attacks. This mod utilizes the first two options.
Phew, hopefully I could answer everything. To sum it up, I'm still not convinced by the claim that prot mark is bad/boring/too standardized, but other suggestions are interesting.

Posted by Spartaclauz: (Jul 18, 2020)
Haha yeah changing the skeet shot is going to be tricky, it's because currently the Musk stats and skill (like the crit chance) is purposely more tamed in respect to the Skeet Shot possible buff.
I would even go futher and say, she NEEDS the skeet shot buffing because it is just so good. She essentially become same speed as HWM with more dmg against beast, but having a more constricted row versatility. Don't get me wrong though, i think that specified and specialized role is a very good design choice with clear strength and weakness.
i agree adding the de-stealth after the buff makes it even similar to HWM tracking shot XD
didn't think that you would add de-stealth together with buff, i would love to use it like that, but that makes the skill so overloaded and obviously overpowered

quick explanation, the "skeet shot" i mentioned in real life is not exactly called "skeet shot". if i have to call it, it's more of a trick shooting that have it uses in combat. The "trick shot" background of it was the impetus how it become a recreational activity. Furthermore it's not restricted to musket or gun per se, but arrow too. Ancient "grenade" in the form of Pottery can be thrown and skeet shot near prey(like ducks hiding in marshes) to startle them out of position, a role that is now mostly substituted by hunting dogs.
Fuel Jar skeet shot with fire arrow can also turn it into a scary fire blanket :D
Well i think you can imagine what other "throwable" object can be used for different effect, but in the end it is just trick shooting and not a discipline of combat simply because it's too risky and unreliable. The invention of musket does makes it more common since bullet travel faster and can hit moving object easier, but well why shoot the jar when you can shoot the guy XD

Hmmmm you raise a good point with the armor penetration history of musket.
The other musketeer rework mod i have used also take a nod of it by having Armor Penetration Bullet activable skill(which is honestly kinda weird since musket shoot ball/pellet rather than bullet, but it is still interesting).
My reason why i wanted the dodge debuff is mostly because of the Threat found in higher level dungeon that specifically favor the musk/arb mark, i.e. Shrieker, Squiffy Ghast
I honestly feel in the base game it was actually a key dev decision to differentiate it from other mark to make them more viable, while still having ♥♥♥♥ dmg lmao. It's pretty rare to find a non-giant enemy that i would want to put Prot debuff, i personally found dodgy enemies in high level expedition far more dangerous. (except for that stupid crab, ♥♥♥♥ those crab XD)
Well i don't mind if it is still Prot debuff, especially with my proposed changes coming to embolden and skeet shot up next

(damn this 1000word limit XD)
especially Virago , i can't stress how useful the arb/msk is during Virago fight, they can clear his mark with Flare/Skeet and reduce his stupid dodge. It's almost as if they are built to counter Virago, the problem is when it's not Virago fight they just feel like burden in the base game XD

Right, let's get to the main discussion: Embolden and Skeet Shot changes
Obviously let's not put de-stealth on top of the current Skeet Shot buffing, as i've presented my almost reliance on it due to how powerful it is XD, which in turn overshadowed the Embolden so much making Musk skill choice very polarized.
I'm going to present a very radical idea, hopefully i don't butcher my explanation and you will understand my point after reading at the end. So here goes:

Switch the current Skeet Shot buff and Embolden, with slight changes of course

Whoa,whoa stop, don't stab me yet, let me explain:
1. So i take it you agree Skeet shot need de-stealth right? The base game skeet shot is actually already pretty good and accurate. My picture of Skeet shot would be:
a. De-Stealth enemy party,
b. Clear Stun whole party,
c. give debuff enemy party.
I'm not going to give torch and stress relief, imo it's dev desperate scramble to make that skill not underpowered, it gives too minimal impact.
The debuff i have in mind is dodge debuff, IF the mark shot is still going to be Prot debuff. the amount of dodge debuff will be lower than default mark shot though since it's whole party.
Think of it as to imitate the "startle" of the enemies as they get revealed by the bright light and sound
Role-wise, while this still partially helped with Shrieker, Squiffy ghast. It is now useable against lesser enemies like Bone Courtier that can spawn en masse.

d. Clear Mark whole party(?). i'm still not sure if this will make it overloaded. i personally think Arb/Msk NEED this to be good in the base game. Thing is default skeet shot are designed to counter specific enemies in the game, the problem is it's too situational and feels like burden most of the time, which is why you can see the devs scrambling giving it weird half-assed minimal effect like torch and stress relief that is barely noticeable.
Well now if it has dodge debuff, does it need Clear Mark now? idk, tell me your thought on this XD

e. Accuracy, you mentioned the problem of the debuff being dodgeable, well frankly, you shouldn't be able to dodge skeet shot, you can't dodge light and sound :lunar2019laughingpig:
just give it the same accuracy as Jester Finale, or even more, making it pretty much guaranteed

2. Embolden skill
My picture of embolden skill being used to ally is: "We can do it man! Focus! Let's do this! i got a plan in mind!" *slap ass*
well basically an encouragement to do "specific bold" action(compared to jester inspire) that Musk have in mind for both of them , which should have the effect of:
a. same stress relief, i don't want to increase it and compete with jester, just enough to make difference
b. increase speed 2-4 for both
c. increase acc 10-15? for both

B and C are basically the current skeet shot buff but lowered due to it buffing 2 people. the accuracy buff i think can stay the same since it does not last for 1 battle anymore. duration is standard 3 rounds.
The other Musk Mod i try have the spd buff for only the target ally, which offers interesting tactical option. It works quite well while not overpowered, and i think it's worthy to be adopted into your mod.
The changes to also buff self is because i think you have a build/role in mind while giving skeet shot a speed buff. i don't want to take it away and potentially ruin the other structure, besides, i love your skeet shot speed buff
Although, considering if Skeet shot get dodge debuff, having accuracy buff may overlapped. That's why i put (?) on it, and you may change it into:
d. Crit Buff. i have slight hesitance to add this, due to embolden skill not limited to 1 per battle. while you can stack, the 3 round duration does limit it somewhat

another option for Embolden is to turn it similar to Crusader Inspire
i.e. able to target self
In that case the buff magnitude can be increased since it's solo rather than duo
However this is going to be massively impact what she can do or not
Although... at the same time, buffing 2 people with 2-4 spd and more is pretty powerful XD

You can think of the duo target as combination of Battle Ballad and Inspire tune
It lacks the specificity of either but still enough to make difference by limiting it to two people and not sacrificing too much numerical impact. So yeah it's going to be tricky to balance, but it does work on the other mod, so this should work.

OMG, sorry for the rant, i didn't realize how much i write --"
i have a problem of losing track when thinking.....
Well that's all for now!
(should we just chat rather than using the comment section? lol)

Basically the rest of our convo
My answer:
dude, seriously this's literally the longest post I've ever seen here on darkest dungeon workshop xd I think I'll need a week or so to give my answer, like there's a lot I want to say and some things I disagree with but it's just too much I don't know where to start.
If you feel like chat is the best way to communicate we can talk there though if we keep posting here someone might join in and give their own opinion too. Then in reality I think most people will just TL;DR

Spartaclauz:
Arqante, i.. umm...i want to apologize...
i reflected on my behaviour overnight and realized, i seriously went over my head big time
what i'm asking has gone way past simple request, i have no right to direct how this mod should go, this is ultimately your mod and i should respect your view on the musketeer and not push mine onto you.
I got too excited and lost track of my action, if i am such a great thinker then i should have make my own mod rather than botching someone else's, that is just rude.
Again, i'm sorry for the trouble i brought upon you, please note i do not meant any harm in the first place, my..."fervour" stemmed from how much i like your mod which exploded out of control
you can just ignore my second ramblings, i realized i'm asking too much, you have your own life and schedule and i don't want to force you, that is just not right.

<(＿ ＿)> i hope you forgive me

Me:
quick thought (will delete later): dodge debuff & acc buff are a huge overlap indeed, in fact it's one of the reasons why I removed dodge debuff from one of previous versions of skeet shot. It actually used to be similar to what you proposed. The second reason was because I changed buckshot's debuff to -dodge. I thought two skills with the same debuff isn't good even if the impact from buckshot is minimal.

more quick thoughts: Skeet Shot
a. De-stealth: I'm still not sure about this one, sounds interesting but I try to keep overlap with the arbalest to minimum. Should it be whole party or one guy? idk One use or many? Again, idk
b. Clear stun: Ok, then you can just add clear mark and it becomes good ol' arby's Flare lol
c. Dodge debuff: Hmm, sounds like maa's bellow. It'd overlap with acc buff and buckshot's dodge debuff (already acts as a AOE minor dodge debuff) though.
d. Why? leave that to the arby jk But seriously it's too situational. While my self-buff variant isn't perfect it's useful anytime (especially in endless mode).
e. Finale is an exception to the rule, it's the skill you don't want to waste, your ace in the hole. Skeet shot just doesn't feel so, it's too normal.

Spartaclauz: (Jul 20, 2020)
yeah...now that you mention it like that, i feel kinda foolish.
i was having a totally different mindset all this time, even though you already mentioned it since the beginning that you want to differentiate Musketeer from Arb as much as possible while still having Arb viable.
i was unconsciously thinking of the musketeer mod as to completely replace Arbalist (facepalm), that's probably why i was so insistent on keeping the skeet shot default effect (it's very useful, but i wanted the hero itself to be better, and i selfishly transfer my wish to this mod)

Well now that i know my error in judgement, i can at least get to the same page with you hopefully XD
a. De-stealth: since it will still be a buff skill, i'm thinking to just let it be a 1 time per battle party de-stealth. So Arb's Flare is still superior as support skill, but at least now Musk have option against de-stealh(in non-endless setting), albeit far more limited, since the buff itself is already good
b&c&d. yeah no need anymore, let Arb take that role at least
e. i agree Finale is an exception. however since the mod Skeet Shot is also a 1 time thing(if de-stealth), i think at least it deserve to be an exception too, lest the de-stealth is wasted. it doesn't deal dmg either(and no debuff etc anymore), so i think this tamed down version should be fine to at least have that luxury

Embolden...now that skeet shot gonna keep it's buffing mode, i need to find other Musk skill it can compete.
The problem is still how polarized the Musk loadout currently is to me.
Aimed shot
Smoke - in case i can't delete 1 of the backline, delay them and can combo with BH Finish Him
Buck - the only way she's gonna hit post 1. and in case of maggot/spider/etc. Those are enough threat to keep equipping Buck in general expedition
Skeet - pretty much a must against boss or Champ dungeon. i don't want to get caught without it against Virago,giant,crab.

even sidearm is occasionaly useful in shambler and giant fight. Embolden gonna need to have tactical power to compete with them. not sure what yet

Moved a lengthy discussion with Shadowlurker here
Posted by Shadowlurker4897: (Mar 1, 2021)
Embolden already clears horror and laudanum isn't used for any curio so I would suggest to change her provision to medicinal herbs.
I can't believe it took me 3 trys to write medicinal right lol.
sorry for the spam, theres no way to edit these so I had to delete and write a new comment.

Me:
Good call, I've been mulling over that for a few days as well and also considered giving herbs to her. But then she'd clash with jester (who honestly is the most fitting class to have a free laudanum) and I'm not sure if it really fits her (or maybe they do). On the other hand, Icosahedric Balls are clashing with the jester's trinket too (both have laudanum-dependant effects rn), so I'm thinking about ways to fix that. On the third hand?, she can clear horror (as you mentioned) except for herself so imo it makes some sense to bring laudanum (?). Lack of any curio interaction is a good argument though (but that's the issue of the base game).
Sorry, I need more time to give you a more elaborate answer.
There's also an option of not having a freebie at all but I decided against that for now.

Shadowlurker4897:
My reason is that a madman gives a plus 15% stress buff for the whole quest alongside his horror.
I dont know what you mean with the jester clash thing, his finaly debuff can't be burned with herbs anyways.
I dont think that the 5% random target chance on the com trinket will do her any good since she needs to hit the marked targets, it conflicts really hard with the sharpshooter's hat.
oh wait it was until camp, not the whole quest for the debuff.

Me:
Oh, sorry, by clashing I meant that jester already brings medicinal herbs with him. Actually, it's even worse than that - leper also gives 1 free herb. So supposedly if musketeer also had medicinal herbs there'd be 3 characters with the same free item. Better to give her something else.
Com trinket is another story: I decided to stick with the developers' decision (even if it's bad) and keep its effects relatively unchanged since it's musk's only unique trinket. I know random target is horrible so I lowered the chance. I'm not saying that it can't be re-reworked though.

Shadowlurker4897:
com trinket idea:
-30 dodge
-100% stress skills
+50% stress
On Attack: Self: +3 stress
-40% virtue chance (so you can't just pair it wit inteprid boots)
-33%damage against marked
-5%crit against marked
+2 speed
+66%Damage
+24 Acc
+10% Crit

The idea is to negate all her defensive capabilitys and go full damage and affliction risk
oh wait stun, move and debuff are defensive too,
-140%stun skill chance
-150% move skill chance
-140% debuff skill chance
in addition to the previously listed effects

Me:
This idea may be nice but in my opinion it's too much going on and the tootip would look bloated in the game.
and 66% DMG is definitely OP since stress can be mitigated with HM's / MaA's guard, stuns, and -% stress buffs, quirks, camp skills, etc.
-30 dodge is irrelevant compared to stress debuff

Shadowlurker4897:
hmmm
-100%stress skills
-25%virtue chance
On Attack: Self: +6 stress
+40% damage
+14% crit
I dont think the desision of the developers was great because arbalasts com trinket is clearly superior and if you think that my suggestion is bad, you can make the trinket the same as arbalasts com trinket.

Me:
I'm totally not going to make it the same as arbalest's one because it defeats the purpose of this mod.

Shadowlurker4897:
On an unrelated note I have an idea for a challenge mod that makes it so that size 2 enemys have 2 actions per turn and size 3 enemys 3 actions per turn.
Yes unclean giants can potentially use treebranch smackdown 2 times per turn for example but thats the point of the challenge.
damn yeah I realize now that making it the same is just a plain stupid idea.

Me:
neat idea, can it be programmed though? (I'm talking about challenge mod)

Shadowlurker4897:
I would think so since there already are enemys with multiple actions in the game, maybe it would require dlc but that would be fine by me.
found it, its
initiative: .number_of_turns_per_round
in the files of the enemys (monsters folder).
changed the number from 1 to 2 and the brigend bloodletter has now 2 actions on my non steam version. I have absolutely no Idea how to make a workshop mod tho.
wanted to check so that you can be sure that its working and doesnt require any other extra effort other than just changing a number.

Posted by Shadowlurker4897: (Mar 1, 2021)
Ideas for some drawbacks since she is still too powerful (ideas to make her even more different from arbalast included)

Part 1 of 4, this comment was getting too long lol

Only able to move 1 space backward at a time because of sidearm and she would be able to get back too effortlessly into her comfort backline position otherwhise
(dont worry this wont turn her into an actual backline leper)

Renaming buckshot into blanket fire,
usable from position 432,
(hounds harry might be able to be used from posion 1 but the brigant fusilier can't use his blanket fire in position 1),
-75% dmg like hounds harry but will still more accurate than hounds harry is since it has 90 acc on lv1,
hits all targets.

Part 2

Sidearm -50% dmg because it doesn't have the random target thing,
starts at 85 acc it's just a sidearm thus should be less accurate than the main weapon.
crit mod starts at -4% and only goes up by 1% each skill level,
usable in position 4 aswell to hit rank 1 consistently for situations when theres nothing else left.
Kinda like how xcom snipers have to use their pistol to hit targets up close consistently.

Removing shuffle from smoke screen,
stun chance starts at 90% (yes 90% is perfectly fine since it works on abomination aswell and backline targets tend to have worse stun resist anyways).
It would make bountys flashbang obsolete otherwhise.

Marking shot -90% damage at least so that it can't be used to stalling move which would completely miss the point of a marking move.

Part 3
If you dont know what I mean: You can use 2 damage moves per turn when there are 2 size 1 enemys or less to avoid stall warnings and reinforcements but any move that has a 90% damage penalty or more (occultists vulnerbility hex for example) doesn't count as a stalling preventing move.

Skeet shot remove torch increase,
Self: +2 spd up to a max of +4spd,
I dont know how a skeet shot can increase torch and it would be really simular to arbalasts flare if it did.
You might say but wait,arbalasts blindfire also has a speed buff!
and thats why I made sure that the self speed buff isnt as good as arbalasts.

Target practise is worth 4 respit points the crit buff should be a 75% chance like man at arms weapons practice.

Part 4
Spiteful boots -10% max hp instead of -5% minus 5% max hp isnt a real pealty.

Interprit boots -10% stress instead of -15%,
+ 5% virtue chance instead of +10%
It would seriously hurt very rare stress reduction trinkets otherwhise but it will still be better than a calming stone because the point of class trinket is to be a bit better than non class trinkets of the same rarity.

Sharpshooter's hat benefits only apply to position 4,
position 3 doesn't deserve to be called a sharpshooting position.

I put so much more effort into this one than my bad com trinket idea took me litteral hours and I tripple checked for spelling mistakes, hopefully I dont have any now haha.
ment to say calming crystal not calming stone lol.

Me:
Ok, back to business. I'll keep it short: trinkets
spiteful boots - you're probably right but maybe it's crit bonus that need nerfing (or removing)
intrepid boots - I don't think 10% virtue is really that relevant so the difference with calm crystal is just 1 spd
sharpshooter's hat - original item already has this bonus so I had to change it into smth else
target practice camp skill - keep in mind that it only affects ranged skills so it's effectiveness can vary from useful to complete garbage depending on how many ranged heros you bring
lastly, skills:
buckshot - I'd like to keep its original name; I think this skill could have some buffing but pos. 2 might be too strong for a back-rank dd and hitting all ranks doesn't really help either.
move - moving 1 space back just makes it plain worse than current sidearm
sidearm - I think -50% is too weak, -4~-1% crit also too weak, however rank 4 is too strong (and buckshot is there for when you need to reliably hit rank 1)
hmm, I could also make spiteful boots uncommon rarity - that should solve some issues with them.

Shadowlurker4897:
The one I think is overpowered the most is her stun because its basicly bountyhunters flashbang with +10% movement skill chance.

Me:
Actually it's slightly worse than flashbang due to more restricted position requirements and 10% less stun chance. It's true that it has 10% more shuffle chance but it can't be buffed with trinkets (that was intentional).

Shadowlurker4897:
Aren't there other non class trinkets that buff move skill chance?
Anyhow I found out that any changes to her moves get applyed on existing savefiles without any trouble whatsoever in case you want to experiment with some stuff later down the line.

Me:
1. Oh, sure there are, I meant class-specific trinkets.
2. As excepted. Imagine if any slight change in a mod you use would require starting a new game.

reserved

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Just wanted to say this is by far my favourite musketeer!
Love taking her on hunts in the warrens.

Also agree on the removal of weapons grease - at least with the limited vanilla inventory space.(and its semi redundant to use on musketeer anyways if you have a HM or BH set the mark for her because they debuff prot themselves)

Glad you like her :)

Originally posted by Morinor:

Just wanted to say this is by far my favourite musketeer!:praisesun:
Love taking her on hunts in the warrens.

I can see why ;) considering her new beast dmg bonus and good anti-stealth

I dont know why and how, but this mod removed 20% stun resist form vial of sand (occultist's court trinket), maybe something else that I just didnt noticed yet

Originally posted by ImSoFcknBad:

I dont know why and how, but this mod removed 20% stun resist form vial of sand (occultist's court trinket), maybe something else that I just didnt noticed yet

Sorry for a late response but this issue's most likely caused by another mod that changes CC trinkets. Just so you know, there's a warning in compatibility section of the description that this mod's incompatible with such trinket mods. It doesn't even have to be a trinket mod to be incompatible, any mod that changes original CC and CoM trinkets is.
Scratch that, I checked myself and this bug does happen, indeed. Edit: Ok, this's definitely an oversight on my part and I'm sorry for that. I'll try to fix this and a few other CC trinkets that I noticed having wrong effects as well in the next update.
UPD: fixed in the latest update pls resubscribe

hello. Arqante! here's something you have to check. when game start, bug message say "Effet:butt_stun_5(~1) is stun effect but no queued & Effect:smoke_stun_5(~1) is stun effect but no queued" like that. I guess this problem need to add " .queued true" in that skill string of "musketeer.effects.darkest", maybe. Can you check it out ?

Originally posted by 땅땅:

hello. Arqante! here's something you have to check. when game start, bug message say "Effet:butt_stun_5(~1) is stun effect but no queued & Effect:smoke_stun_5(~1) is stun effect but no queued" like that. I guess this problem need to add " .queued true" in that skill string of "musketeer.effects.darkest", maybe. Can you check it out ?

This again? Thanks for pointing it out, I shall fix this in the next update