Slay the Spire

Slay the Spire

The Disciple
Zu 9 Jan, 2019 @ 11:32am
Skipping intents and why it wouldn't exist in vanilla
Disclaimer:
This topic doesn't matter in a world where we have an abundance of characters for variety.

Super-duper TL,DR:
Maybe it actually would exist in an official capacity years after launch. It's not braindead, it's flavorful. However, this mechanic tends to remove more than what it adds, which feels out of place in a game where overcoming various challenges plays a considerable role.



Preface:
This topic is mostly about how the skip mechanic influences the experience of playing the game. Inevitably I'll take jabs at the balance side of things but I don't really care about it. I used to think about this mechanic months ago, so this also exists to organize my thoughts.



According to the mod author, the disciple is in a fairly reasonable spot in terms of win rates. Whether that has anything to do with the infamous basic card that allows you to skip an enemy's intent is something that may or may not be analyzed by the mod author in person.

What I'll be doing in this topic is list the things it takes away - things that the developers put in the game as obstacles for you to think and worry about.

At this point, you could honestly stop reading since I just answered the title's question for the second time while the tl,dr is still in the corner of your eye.



Now, I will acknowledge when taking something away may add something in its stead, but this'll just be a (hopefully) concise rundown of the most relevant cases to put things into perspective.

If a fight or monster is missing, it's because skipping any intent doesn't give you a notable advantage or changes how you think about the fight in a meaningful way (or I just forgot).

Lateish edit: I do realize the opportunity cost of drawing the card the first time in a fight where not having it would yield a better result. Not sure where to put this so here you go.



1. Cultist: No scaling. No need to think about offense vs defense and predicting lethal.

2. Fungi beasts: Forcing one to buff gives you more leeway to find lethal.

3. Wizard gremlin: No longer a threat if the fight's over in 7 turns at the latest.

4. Gremlin nob:
Removes rage and / or (pre-A18) can force double vulnerable or skip it the first time. Not dealing a lotta damage on turn 1 changes the dynamic a lot, but suddenly you need to worry less about picking up skills that are useful against either of the other elites but would normally be punished hard by nob by virtue of existing.

5. Lagavulin:
Removes syphon and thus the fight's time limit. Instead you need to keep blocking while scaling incrementally to win before the damage breaks even. Feels an awful lot like the peaceful nob from above now.

6. Hexaghost:
Skips infernos and upgraded burns. 6ghost will end up with more strength but it's much less about killing it around the time of the second inferno or the third one at the latest.

7. Slime boss: Skip statuses or skip slam? The most interesting decision yet.

8. The guardian:
Speeds up its scaling, which can backfire hard. Meanwhile though, if you have that repeatable source of strength reduction, well, you know the rest from disarm and malaise.



9. Chosen:
Letting her(?) scale earlier shouldn't outweigh the benefits of removing hex and needing to worry less about skills like with peaceful gremlin nob.

10. Centurion and mystic: Forces centurion to block and mystic to skip frail. More leeway.

11. Shelled parasite: Have a safety net. That's what it usually does in the cases I omitted.

12. Snecko: Removes dice. No need to reevaluate plays based on randomized card prices.

13. Spheric guardian: Removes frail and / or whatever your deck hates the most.

14. Gremlin leader: Makes one of the most interesting a.i.s in the game more interesting.

15. Taskmaster:
Similar to the omitted act 1 slavers, but deciding between raw damage and debuffs matters more now. It's one of these "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." cases where the aspect of risk-taking is slightly different.

16. Bronze automaton:
Skips what you're least happy to see at the time. That's what it usually does in the cases I omitted, but it also, you know, lets it scale earlier in exchange for killing both minions.

17. The champ:
Skips buffs, skips the half health buff, skips executes. Can we stop bullying champ?

18. The collector:
The flagship example I chose for my post in the comment section. Not having to worry about 3-5 turns of misery is the biggest deal yet, and sometimes you can be a cheeky boi and make him summon while a torch is still alive.



19. Exploders:
So when you force an exploder to explode, it explodes in the face of an ally. Almost tempted to say "Feature, not bug." because it's hilarious.

20. Maw: Removes turn 1 debuff. Seems worth it in exchange for different scaling flavor.

21. Writhing mass: Cheat mode on. Now you always know when to attack if nothing else.

22. Nemesis:
One of the outstanding examples of when this level of control can make a big difference.

23. Reptomancer: Gremleader 2.0. Very interestingly, you can force early dagger sudoku.

24. Awakened one: Skips quadruple attacks. Can remove a cultist if innate. Good stuff.

25. Time eater:
The other flagship example I chose alongside collector. Since you have a repeatable source of strength reduction, denying the cleanse is huge. Champ note: Execute is a joke at negative strength. You still need to worry about debuff into single hit, but that's where intent cheats come in again, even if it means raising the timer by 1.



26. Spire shield and spear:
The early turns tend to be the most dangerous, so exchanging a massive attack for faster scaling can be risky but also save runs. Also, sorta free directional swap.

27. <3:
Skips painful turn 2 or 3. Faster scaling, but also allows you to skip 100something x12(x15). #intangible, except zero damage half the time and no downside at this point in the fight.



Worth mentioning at the very end that intangible and skipping intents have similar problems. Needing fewer problem solvers isn't always a good thing. To reiterate though: This topic doesn't matter whatsoever in a world where we have an abundance of characters for variety.
Last edited by Zu; 10 Jan, 2019 @ 3:45am
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Chronometrics  [developer] 11 Jan, 2019 @ 9:25am 
Despite the clickbait title, this is a good preliminary analysis of Pattern Shift. There are a few enemies you've missed some key plays, but overall well done. Will write a more complete writeuo for you in a few days if you like, but for now...

- consider the value of pattern shift as a curse, in fights where it has no or low impact
- consider the value of pattern shift to regulate your hand, such as switching INTO an attack on a turn with a good hand setup
- consider pattern shift in context of the large gap for immediate non-setup damage, Disciple has very few tools to deal with fast hitting or scaling enemies, low immediate damage, and troublesome aoe. Pattern Shift is a huge compensator for those situations
- consider the lack of t1 consistency for pattern shift when so many of the above strats are t1 relevant

And most importantly...

- the value of a pattern shift locally is always mitigated by the fact the enemy is doing another move instead. Example:Champ. Skipping the half health buff sounds amazing, but it skips into an execute. Additionally, you lose the tempo from the skipped turn. How many times have you ironclad stalled champ and then gathered strength to deal 240 damage to champ on the buff turn and the turn after with no risk? The answer for me is... all the time. Having two guaranteed, predictable free turns is how you beat champ on high ascensions on vanilla, but Disciple doesn't have much scaling, so that is mostly not an option for them. In the many situations like this, Pattern Shift is The core tool that prevents getting wiped out entirely. Is it op? Irrelevant, the class is balanced around this card existing, and complementing the slow setup toolkit
Zu 11 Jan, 2019 @ 10:17am 
Ye, I jumped the gun in the comments, but I didn't wanna back out n delete my early impression.

The definitive TL,DR is really that I personally think the mechanic would not exist outside of mods yet because it removes defining features of various fights so some kinda feel homogenous.


Again, it doesn't feel like something a developer would want to do unless there are enough playable characters so that it's fine to make an exception,
but I'm obviously just getting hung up on the desire to show the player as much as possible even though we have things like ash lake in dark souls and all sorts of other secrets and optional stuff,
not to mention the inherent boredom that comes from repeating things ad nauseam, which is another reason to justify this mechanic after all.

Even then I'm just wondering if you could make it work without entirely removing the things that make some foes who they are. Theorycrafting if you will, which I'm sure you've done extensively and might talk about in your own topic after vacation tm.


The mod author always has the last say either way, and I've yet to emphasize that it's dang solid.
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