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Stellaris >  Workshop > Zibbly's Workshop > Propaganda and Espionage - LEGACY 2.2* > Discussions
Propaganda and Espionage - LEGACY 2.2*
Description Discussions1 Comments294 Change Notes
MagnusEffect 12 Jan, 2019 @ 3:49am
Mod Feedback
First off, thanks for the great mod!

I just have a few questions/suggestions on ways to improve it:

1) The colored designations on the map for funding are a little strange:
Currently, the espionage funding color designations (from worst to best) are Purple<Red<Blue<Green. This is very confusing. Most diagrams usually follow the standard color wheel. In this case, it would be (Red being worst) Red<Purple<Blue<Green.

If you prefer, you could also go the other way down the color wheel (similar to most traffic lights): Red<Orange<Yellow<Green.

I know it may not seem like much, but it's really troublesome to keep having to use the mouse tooltip to remember what the colors mean (except for green) the way you have it right now.

2) The popups are a bit intense if you have a lot of AI neighbors:
When I have max funding, I am getting a lot of popups to the point where it is starting to detract from the game's pacing. The way the popups are worded, I have to carefully read each one before I make a decision everytime. When this is happening what seems like almost every month (I have not checked precisely), it can get a bit tedious. Obviously, the popups are important, but the AI seems to like to spam espionage actions WAAAY more than the player (probably due to the fact the AI can cheat with its economy). Is there a way to add a cooldown timer for espionage actions? Maybe double that timer for the AI compared to the player?

3) Funding penalties are far more oppressive for players than AI:
After installing this mod, it tanked my economy in my existing empire, but the AI had no trouble spamming espionage actions. To help compensate, I had to go completely defensive: I set counter-espionage to max and set offensive espionage to minimum. Since the AI was all too eager to spam espionage, I basically ignored offensive actions and waited for them to screw up on their rolls. I don't think that is really the intent of the mod.

Like I mentioned before, since the AI can essentially cheat its economy, the AI has a much easier time exploiting this mod's features than the player. If you can manage to add a cooldown timer for espionage actions, perhaps consider reducing economy penalties by half to compesate? This would encourage players to use the mod's full set of features.

4) The tooltips for the three options for some popups appear reversed:
It's confusing to read, but sometimes the "report incident" option has the "this will improve standing" tooltip and sometimes it does not; vice versa for the "do nothing" option. I can't make heads or tails of the results for options sometimes. What's weird is it only happens some of the time. Not sure why. You may want to check the toool tips for your choices. Some appear reversed.

Anyway, hope that helps.
Last edited by MagnusEffect; 12 Jan, 2019 @ 4:11am
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Showing 1-15 of 17 comments
Zibbly  [developer] 12 Jan, 2019 @ 5:52am 
These are all great ideas, and i've just nearly finished implementing them all, should be ready soon. The anti spam measure now makes the ai moderately less likely to choose the player as a target if they were recently targeted by Espionage, it should help cut down on the constant messages.

(Also, how the hell did i derp up Map Mode colours that bad? Lmao, went for Red<Orange<Yellow<Green and it looks so much better)
Last edited by Zibbly; 12 Jan, 2019 @ 7:27am
#1
Icegloo24 12 Jan, 2019 @ 7:38am 
It's a really great idea you had here. Thank you for the great mod.

I'd like to join in making some suggestions or just offer some ideas if you like:

1.) For balancing out weak and strong empires you could probably go with the tech_unlocked_ratio (<,>,=) { who = <target> ratio = 1.0 } and increase influence costs for empires with low tech-ratio or decrease the likelyhood of weak empires overhelming your espionage defense easily.

Probably something like
tech_unlocked_ratio <= { who = <target> ratio = 0.8 } => 1.5 x regular Influence cost AND { tech_unlocked_ratio > { who = <target> ratio = 0.8 } tech_unlocked_ratio < { who = <target> ratio = 1.2 } } => 1.0 x regular Influence cost tech_unlocked_ratio >= { who = <target> ratio = 1.2 } => 0.75 x regular Influence cost

(Sorry i don't know how to use switch case here xD)

2.) Or/And you could use relative_power = { who = <target country> category = <fleet/?economy?/technology/all> to compare economic power/fleet power to make the AI's choice rely on the potential trouble the target can cause.
#2
Zibbly  [developer] 12 Jan, 2019 @ 7:50am 
@Icegloo24... Thats perfect haha Ive been struggling to work out how to account for different ai strengths (and early game/ late game). Unlocked techs should be perfect.

And the new version does use relative fleet power for a few things, notably when an AI decides wether or not to join in an ongoing war
#3
MagnusEffect 12 Jan, 2019 @ 8:45am 
Glad to hear you are working on it. Thanks Quibble! :)

EDYT: Only other thing I'd like to add is make sure the empire names are highlighted in all of your espionage popups (they aren't in some of them). Will make it easier to read at a glance who is causing trouble for the player.
Last edited by MagnusEffect; 12 Jan, 2019 @ 8:48am
#4
Icegloo24 12 Jan, 2019 @ 9:03am 
I just had another idea. I guess you infected me with that mod :D

With the 2.2 Paradox made it easier to create new types of resource. So it would be possible to create a resource that represents spies and use it as a limit of actions you can perform instead of only influence.

For example:

Lets say enforcers generate 2 spies each month and the basic income for empires is 5. After 22 Month you have ~150 spies, enough for a strong spy action.

To extend this we could say that if the subject of espionage has less than 150 x <Policymodifier> spies the action succeeds. If the subject has more the mission fails but the subject looses a large amount of spies.
#5
Nesland-ITA 12 Jan, 2019 @ 10:25am 
i'm plenty of ideas for mods, but unfortunally i'm not able to code them, but i've been working into the game balancing industry for over than 20 years then i can put all ideas on the tables and see what/wich can be implemented and intresting to keep also the game balanced and not boring...

This mod, is properly implemented can really bring a new concept into the game and also can have the DEV take it into consideration to implement it into the game itself as Expansion pack.

There are plenty of idea from the cold war age, war of spy, sabotaging, stealing and counterstealing or recovering tech, spy ships, stealing resources, make enemy fight between them and selling them your military ships (something like a mercenary or a weapon dealer) and then capsize both of them, or be a loan shark when you have plentifull resources applying absurd tax rate income (and even collect entire systems if the debt is to big).

You can use this mod to add a sublte way to fight, the 4th power the informations, take control of it, manipulate it, suffer from that, bully and be bullied, crime can escalate to planet awareness and planetary indipendence from the owner race (and maybe joining ours or viceversa).
#6
ttz27dsn 19 Jan, 2019 @ 5:02pm 
Very good mod, but needes impovement. Here are some suggestions:

1 - Spy attack must cost some credits and influence (even in weakest form). In current version, If you don't care about relationships with your enemy you just can spam spy attacks even with minimal funding until lucky rolls.
2-You must add some techs, which can improve spy attacks and counter-intelligence
3.Ai spams same type of attack every time, i never saw him stealing tech, only sabotaging my diplomatic relations with other empires.
4. Psionic Ascension Path must give wide array of new possibilities both for intelligence and counter-intelligence, obviously psionic spies must be powerful, but they have no bonuses versus machine and synth empires. It will be cool if they get their spy bonuses as unique tradition tree.
5.Flesh Is Weak ascension path also can improve spies - but in technical areas mostly - like sabotage and industrial espionage. Also they are powerful versus other machine empires, cyborgs, synths e.t.c. It will be cool if they get their spy bonuses as unique special projects.
6.Engineered Evolution ascension path can be used to make geneticaly engeneered spies who look like victim species, (if they are not machine, cyborg or synth empires), this makes your spies much harder to catch. It will be cool, if they get their spy bonuses as unique genetic traits.
7.Assasiantion attempt operation - especially hard operation to kill enemy leaders.
8.Bribing attemt operation - especially costly operation to steal enemy leaders. Not aviable both for and agains genocidal empires.
9.And of course propaganda and provoking riots, but you already mentioned your plant about it.

#7
Naoura 20 Jan, 2019 @ 1:40pm 
Can something be done about Allies making nonsensical Espionage attacks?

For example: I've got a Vassal, who I'm very friendly with, and another empire that I have a defensive pact with, ruining my relations with a militarist faction on the other side of said Vassal. There is no strategic gain for either of them to be worsening relations, as the distance for both is pretty much useless, and I'm at fantastic relations with both of those empires.

Not sure how, but could it someway be limited to rivaled factions, in an effort to draw others into a war or disagreement with tactically beneficial situations? Like, if they've got a defensive pact with an empire, what's the benefit of worsening relations with another empire that will bring them into a useless war?
#8
Talshiar 20 Jan, 2019 @ 2:12pm 
Originally posted by Nesland-ITA:
i'm plenty of ideas for mods, but unfortunally i'm not able to code them, but i've been working into the game balancing industry for over than 20 years then i can put all ideas on the tables and see what/wich can be implemented and intresting to keep also the game balanced and not boring...

This mod, is properly implemented can really bring a new concept into the game and also can have the DEV take it into consideration to implement it into the game itself as Expansion pack.

There are plenty of idea from the cold war age, war of spy, sabotaging, stealing and counterstealing or recovering tech, spy ships, stealing resources, make enemy fight between them and selling them your military ships (something like a mercenary or a weapon dealer) and then capsize both of them, or be a loan shark when you have plentifull resources applying absurd tax rate income (and even collect entire systems if the debt is to big).

You can use this mod to add a sublte way to fight, the 4th power the informations, take control of it, manipulate it, suffer from that, bully and be bullied, crime can escalate to planet awareness and planetary indipendence from the owner race (and maybe joining ours or viceversa).


Since day one... waiting for this. Playing the "The Great Game" is a must-have to reach a new level of gameplay.
#9
MagnusEffect 20 Jan, 2019 @ 9:02pm 
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but some of these suggestions feel a bit "pie-in-the-sky".

Some of the more invansive alterations to core gameplay I feel would be better suited to a seperate mod. You start messing with core mechanics and it really opens the can of worms to issues with game balance.
#10
Rozys 22 Jan, 2019 @ 12:45am 
Consider making espionage operations an offensive use of science ships

A creates paranoia and unease wheneve one of those cruising through "allied" areas.
B makes open border have a risk factor not just a free diplo boost
(adjacent system for the low reward ops but orbit for high reward ops)
C spying on the person on the other side of the map considerable more effort

From a lore perspective there is also the sci-fi element of different science specialities doing different types of sci-fi melevolent things.


I think you generally on right idea with this mod stellaris needs more ways for empires to be "jerks" to each other something between enemy and friend.

Last edited by Rozys; 22 Jan, 2019 @ 2:01am
#11
Zibbly  [developer] 24 Jan, 2019 @ 1:46am 
@MagnusEffect I agree, im not really out to try and 'fix' Stellaris or overhaul core game mechanics with this. Also, i do like to try and never overwrite anything vanilla, so it stays compatible.

@Rozys, I do like the idea of open borders adding some risks, maybe even making espionage easier. However that might just screw over alliances etc. And you're not the first person to mention extending the range, the only issue with that is it'll actually be quite code heavy to do it, AND, i do kinda like the idea of having to setup outposts that border other empires to facilitate espionage.
#12
Mugi 24 Jan, 2019 @ 10:08pm 
@Quibble Blip
When one of your cells completes an operation, you have to manually open up the espionage window and navigate through the event windows to tell them to get back to work. Would it be possible to add an option to the "operation completion" or "spy cell ready for use" screens to send me there without so much trouble?

Some other suggestions for cells, as they're the main focus of the mod:
Why not give espionage missions a non-fixed duration? I presume you already calculate a lot of espionage outcomes through events; giving them a MTTH (ranging from 1-3 years for Industrial Sabotage, for example) would make things feel a little less clockwork.

Why not just use cells for all types of espionage? This would help with what I consider to be a rather significant problem right now: Early game, cells can only be used for one thing, and it feels very repetitive to repeatedly send out spies on just one type of mission.

Why not use Influence for all types of Espionage? Spending a lump sum (of 25, 50, 75, or 100) Influence would probably feel better than the current energy penalty, and Influence doesn't have the same scaling issues that energy credits have. If the energy credit use for cells is because that's how counterintelligence spending works, that seems a little odd. Shouldn't it work like:
- Counterintelligence (requiring energy credits) gives you a scaling chance to catch espionage attempts.
- Espionage Technologies (the ones used to unlock additional cells) reduce this chance.
- The results of a successful cell operation are determined by how much influence you spent.
#13
Zibbly  [developer] 25 Jan, 2019 @ 4:17am 
@Muggins I dont see why not, should be easy enough to add a repeat last operation option too. I'll take a look.

Honestly i was just worried about chucking too much onto the Cells straight away, because i wasnt sure how well they were going to work out. If people like them, then i do think they should have more of the operations controlled by them.

So are you saying you think the influence spent should only determine the eventual impact of an operation, and other factors should determine the success rate?
#14
Mugi 25 Jan, 2019 @ 7:58am 
I think cells are a good way to handle all of this stuff for sure!

In my opinion, the success rate of operations should depend on a number of factors. Enemy Counterintelligence should play a large role - some spitball numbers:
- At Low Security (0% of total EC output), it's a 20% chance of failure.
- At Medium Security (5% of total EC output), it's a 35% chance of failure.
- At High Security (10% of total EC output), it's a 50% chance of failure.
Known Espionage Technologies should also play a role. You have three right now, with each granting you access to an additional cell; perhaps each step also improves your chances of success on operations by some 10%?

Cells could cost a lump sum of Influence to send out on missions. The greater your investment, the greater the results. To use the Diplomatic Incident as an example, maybe:
- For 50 Influence, a Minor Diplomatic Incident that imposes a -30 Opinion Penalty (with a decay of -5 per year).
- For 75 (or 100?) Influence, a Middling Diplomatic Incident that imposes a -60 Opinion Penalty (with a decay of -5 per year).
- For 100 (or 150?) Influence, a Major Diplomatic Incident that imposes a -90 Opinion Penalty (with a decay of -5 per year).
At the risk of adding further complications and calculations which the events system of Stellaris might not be capable of handling, you could also have it cost a lump sum of Energy Credits to assemble the cell in the first place. The more EC you spend on training and hiring personnel, the better they are at overcoming Counterintelligence.
#15
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