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Space Engineers >  Værksted > Dark Helmets værksted > Build Vision 3.0 > Diskussioner
Build Vision 3.0
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Martin Astos 20. feb. 2022 kl. 10:08
[BV 3] Personal Comment, Explanation and Reasoning
Pasting this here as a more cohesive version of my comments that got badly split by the character count.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Me:
Let’s start with a positive, congratulations and thank you for the obvious huge amount of work you have put into this mod both previously and for this update..........however.

Up vote for legacy option for all parts (preview/sneak, buttons/bindings, functionality etc) PLEASE.
(Just give us a link to a separate upload of BV 2.5? Was there anything broken with that? It seemed perfect)

Radial menus are incredibly confusing and difficult to read and navigate for me (also I imagine other people with any level of dyslexia spectrum (words moving on screen etc, lists/linear environments are better) may adversely suffer as I know mine plays a role in this but is mild) to the point of being painfully hard work to use.

Problems that now exist that didn't before that I have experience these last few hours:

- Which way do I select a box: the innate/trained way is to move the crosshairs over it as in VR/other games (either by mouse or wasd) but this is incorrect.
- Does scrolling up or down take me the way I want (this will be inverted on 50% of the boxes so even memorising will be wrong, because it is a circle),
- The font is the same size, but the circle is massive, obstructing the view and being in the way turning the UI messy/clunky (partially opinion but the screen "real estate" usage issue isn't)
- Use of left and right mouse buttons conflicts with other mods (just resulted in a server ending clang for me and why I "gave up" trying to learn to use the update and write this). I will admit I have no idea why you did this as left click in particular is so heavily used it can only have caused you both difficulty in implementing ‘safeties’ but going forward more ‘conflicts’ and thus ‘complaints’.

Ok, actually gone back to and tried a bit more because I wanted this to be as well informed and useful to you as I could. This bit mostly corresponds to the first point above but also touches on all the others.
Please take a step back for this and have a go without any 'prior knowledge' and treating it how most user will which is by hardly reading the info guide OR being an ‘old’ user: you start off peaking at a block which gives you a massive button shaped thing, so first you try left clicking or clicking any of the mouse buttons, if you are supposed to select with left mouse then why does it not enter the wheel when you click any in peak mode(first "illogical" step). Now try editing say a block name, to get there you now have to use the mouse wheel even though the screen has the crosshair front and centre and free floating over your menu making, as said before, the most logical method to move over it and click, nope mouse wheel scroll. Next when you have finished editing the name you are given 2 massive buttons that look like they should be clickable, they have no button indicators to tell you otherwise so you move the crosshair again and click on the cancel but….you select confirm.

I am sorry to write this as it might be the biggest insult possible to a UI designer, but this feels like Microsoft implementing the Windows 8 UI/Home Screen; it may look great on paper, it may even have evidence that it takes less steps/is easier to use etc (as they tried to claim) but the old way was better, sorry. Don’t ‘fix’ what isn’t broken.

Please DO NOT use this discussion for any kind of war or discussion (I know ironic huh) at most comment/up vote if you agree, do not make it somewhere else our great creator has to read as well as the comments.
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Nahy 20. feb. 2022 kl. 15:43 
Pretty much how I feel about it.

Even though I set up everything to be as close as to 2.5 as possible, I got incredibly frustrated setting up 4 rotors, hinges and spotlights.

We love BV for it's utility and efficiency, not it's looks. (2.5 was perfect)
#1
IceQ 20. feb. 2022 kl. 16:06 
Well said Martin.

If one reads all the comments, the most prominent of the critiques since the change are about the navigation. Because everyone that uses it on steam are PC players. We have enough buttons and don't need the radial menus. Radials work great with thumb sticks, but don't work very well with mouse movement.

I also liked your observation about how the radial uses more space, gives less info, but also obstructs the view. I also preferred the middle mouse button for this addon, made it stand out and you knew you where interacting with it without breaking anything else.

I was still using the list menu option even after the update, so that is a plus. About the only thing the author really needs to do is to enable the users to use the keybinds from 2.5.
Sidst redigeret af IceQ; 20. feb. 2022 kl. 16:08
#2
Frigidman 21. feb. 2022 kl. 11:28 
For the short time it existed, I tried 3.0, tried to get used to it, and tried to force myself to like it cause I knew its the way it was going to go (learn or die!).

I found it a bit clumsy in multiple ways.

I was instantly annoyed by how much real estate the wheel took. Even peak. Now, the smaller list box used to on occasion be visually in the way of what I was looking at... but rarely. However that wheel, was just too big! And there is no way to make it smaller without cutting out all the text... which kills usefulness.

Trying to copy/paste settings (which I use BV a lot for especially for lights) was slow, and I couldn't really grasp it. Certainly not as easy as the two quick taps of keys to get it done with before in 2.5. I know sometimes hard to recall which two keys, but it was very quick.

I found it very slow and clumsy to be stuck with the wheel too (and tossing me a cursor to fiddle with it). Then also having to close it out to move on. Moving from block to block was slower, and I just could not get used to having to go through so many steps to open and close menus quickly to get a bunch of block settings dealt with.

For me, anything to do with a 'mousewheel' is slow though (did it roll? did it register? did it register the right direction? is it going to keep registering if I go to far? agh!!). I am annoyed enough having to select blocks from a blockgroup, or paint/textures (I use the Paint Gun mod)... I really don't enjoy having to rely on a mouse wheel to do anything.

The simple MMB click was, just simple. Now.... there had been occasion where I had a block in hand when I tried to open BV, and ended up 'painting' (keens stupid painting system). But I just ended up disabling that... I know not everyone else would, since not everyone uses the paint gun mod. So I can see why the author wanted to move away from MMB clicks..... but... hrm. I couldn't get used to ctrl and a mouse WHEEL to do it.

I really love this mod (the listy box 2.5 version). I always recommended it to new users in Discord too. I hope the author can figure something out.
#3
cjb 3. mar. 2022 kl. 5:17 
This echos's a lot of my experience as well. I know that an incredible amount of time has been spent developing Build Vision and it's an important tool for so many players, myself included.

So my feedback is hopefully received in a constructive light. I had 3 main problems, aside from the sheer amount of space that radial menus take.

- Peek feels like it should be bypassed if a user looks at a block and immediately interacts with control-scrollwheel. Right now I have to pause until the Peek shows up, which is not useful if I'm intending to edit something (I now disable Peek in the settings).


- In earlier versions of BV, I could modifier-middleclick on a part to jump to the menu, point at another part and modifier-middleclick to get _it's_ menu etc. That made it extremely fast to edit settings across multiple blocks.

In BV3 though, this is not possible. It is now an extra click to back out before I can select a different block.

I'm not sure what a good option here is. Perhaps control-scrollwheel could open the menu always, since control is not required to scroll within a menu.

This is probably my biggest usability complaint, since I cannot change this behavior.


- A radial menu usually intends to reduce the "distance" required to travel between selections, for example moving the mouse left would immediately jump to the left side of the circle.

In BV3 though, you still scroll through all the entries between so it's the same scroll distance.

If control-mousemovement immediately jumped up/down/left/right, then a mousemove + scroll _would_ reduce the travel distance. Particularly for blocks with many settings.
#4
Loonge 3. mar. 2022 kl. 11:46 
Always loved BV 2.5. Became a must use for all things space engineers not just for myself but the vast amount of people I know who also play and was perfect in every way. But BV 3.0...

Have to agree with everything said so far but,

To yet again echo whats been said, the radial menu is for lack of a better description, "horrid". Takes up vast amount of screen space and doesn't feel natural.

I too prefer the middle mouse control over LMB/RMB.

I also find it hard to make out the text due to how transparent background is and changing in setting I'm not getting any difference.

I also experience a very hard performance impact using BV 3.0. vs none in BV 2.5. Soon as peek shows, it started to impact and opening ether radial or list causes hard lockups and audible funkiness. I may not have the beefiest PC but its more then enough for very heavy modded SE and before BV 3.0 I would get sub 40% cpu load. Now since BV 3.0 I'm seeing 55%-65% having it just in the save and peeking/opening ether menu hitting 95%-100%.
#5
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