Stellaris

Stellaris

~ StarNet AI
JayBee 🔰 26 Aug, 2019 @ 8:00am
AI Opinion Is Pretty Stupid =)
I do like the mod quite a bit, it's a different take from Glavius and there's a huge amount of good in there, some really intelligent thinking on how to get the AI to perform better. :)

A bit rambling (and dare I say inadvertently rant-y) of my take on this mod and relations, sorry about that, please take it with humour from someone that has less coffee in them than desired. lol

Of course having said that there are some issues on design which I think are not all that great, especially considering how much the AI are all psychopathic monsters.

I'm not even talking about the design choices, just basing the fact on some random stranger giving me a million dollars so I don't murderize him would in the case the AI got that would instead still murderize him and dance on the grave. ;)

First I should say my play style will change based on the empire I have, having said that this mod forces super aggression on players, anything that forces anything in any game is a horrible, horrible (non-) design choice.

One thing I always thought was messed up in vanilla was the trade deal opinion, so I'm glad that was changed, and then two seconds after that I thought that it was a horrible decision to go to the extreme that was taken. Favourable trade deals opinion modifier are now pointless because only an idiot would give anything to the AI since firstly it's 10% of the actual value, and degrades 250% faster. If you want someones TV and they offer you a TV and PS 4, and your reaction is "meh" I think I'll take it then attack you, then there's a serious problem.

-side note to the above, and this is a vanilla thing, it's really easy to accidentally break a long term trade deal, if anything it should be preserved with market place conversions somehow. Just a thought. The standard penalty is also way to high given how easy these are to break by accident, and the reason I gave up on long term trades.

While I very much enjoy the fact the AI isn't as silly as vanilla and is realistic in how it works generally speaking, there are some huge things that are not working logically. Due to the nature of the game the AI knows 'exactly' how powerful they are and therefore are evil warmongers, most of the AI is hateful which should be instead wary or ambivalent, and the initial relations are a huge importance in the game to allow for good relations later- however this is severely curtailed by low initial relations with hardly anyway to improve it.

I do like that the AI knows I want all their stuff, however I don't want all the different AIs stuff, and in many cases I'm good with only half the galaxy, so the AI should get that and not be so aggressive.

Frankly the thing in games that ticks me off the most is in this mod, the AI acts stupidly aggressive and doesn't accept reasonable diplomatic actions while prosecuting reasonable conflicts. I will be quite happy to focus my efforts on any empire that irritates me, to the point that the AI does not understand that I may lose the first war but they won't exist after the second war, or at least I'll make sure they wish they never started a war.




1) Initial relations are way to problematically low, both generally and specifically with certain ethics, particularly those that should be a bit more friendly.

2) The AI gets into wars that hurt it in the long run, the next 2-3 wars.

3) The AI doesn't properly take into account the productivity of an empire, how fast they can increase their fleet, and replace losses, kind of reminds me of Germany in WW II, having the tiny brains to think that economies 10x their size can't beat them.

4) Unless all AI species are crazy they should instead be a little friendlier.

5) Trade opinion is broken (as are probably a lot of opinion modifiers. While I do prefer a nerfing at how good it is in vanilla, this mod makes it unrealistic to use under any circumstance since the benefit is close to nothing.

If vanilla is 100% and decays 2 per year, and this mod is 10% and decays 5 per year then something more like 50% with a decay of 3 is still harsh... is it harsh enough to be reasonably balanced- probably not but it's certainly something much more reasonable, heck I'd be less irritated with the concept if it even mattered, but frankly since the AI has a -1000 modifier to diplomacy who really cares. (btw limiting trade opinion to +20 instead of +100 only goes to show what a hugely wrong direction this mod is taking since gifts are useless because they are not valued and the AI hates everyone because it's psychopathic, in what world would more nerfing of diplomacy make sense).

So frustrating.

I do thank you for your hard work, I just wish I could enjoy it but the diplomacy is completely broken as it currently stands. I think you went in the right direction but forgot you were taking a long walk off a short pier and forgot to stop. =)

all the best


p.s. I should mention one war in particular during the early game the last time I played. the relations were about -20 to start and of course IMPOSSIBLE to change, they were inferior in fleet size and I tried to keep my fleet size up, I'm not sure what they did but they must have spent every available effort into their fleet and as soon as they got a 1 corvette edge they declared war... absolutely stupid, I'm not sure how much cheating if any was used on ENSIGN difficulty, but for extremely little gain they started a war they couldn't win... they could however be annoying enough that fighting the war would weaken me against others, mind you there was nobody else in position to have that matter, it does go to show that later on with more neighbours I'd end up having minor and moderate powers fight wars with me for little to no benefit which would cause me to lose wars against major powers more than likely.


Last edited by JayBee 🔰; 26 Aug, 2019 @ 8:11am
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Showing 1-4 of 4 comments
JayBee 🔰 26 Aug, 2019 @ 8:23am 
I also looked at your more friendly version (I'm likely going to mod that to somewhere in between the two versions and try it out because like I said, I think you're going in the right direction but that pier my friend, it's not as long as you think. :D


btw there's a bug with that;

opinion_trade_gift = {
opinion = {
base = 0.1
}

accumulative = yes

max = 1000

decay = {
base = 20
}


should be (and really changing max is just making a change because you can type heh)

opinion_trade_gift = {
opinion = {
base = 0.1
}

accumulative = yes

max = 20

decay = {
base = 5
}



and for sake of discussion I'm going to try;

opinion_trade_gift = {
opinion = {
base = 0.25
}

accumulative = yes

max = 100 #this really doesn't matter too much

decay = {
base = 3
}


from vanilla

opinion_trade_gift = {
opinion = {
base = 1
}

accumulative = yes

max = 100

decay = {
base = 2
}


all the best mate
Last edited by JayBee 🔰; 26 Aug, 2019 @ 8:24am
salvor  [developer] 5 Sep, 2019 @ 2:35am 
Took me a while to respond coherently (and I am not sure if I can).

Shortly speaking the main problem with AI diplomacy is that it's not quite moddable. A lot of things cause all-or-nothing behavior. It is possible to eventually create a discrepancy between AI behaviors but probably it's smarter to wait until we have diplomacy DLC which may make diplomacy more moddable overall. I think I've found some balance where most war declaration make sense and they do declare war when they need to do it, but it means that sometimes their wars are going to be a bit badly thought-of.

I've changed the opinion to


opinion_trade_gift = {
opinion = {
base = 0.1
}

accumulative = yes

max = 1000

decay = {
base = 20
}

To make it possible to get +100 relations with the AI. I think the default vanilla handling of bribes is very bad, the amount of relation boost you get does not scaled depending on AI size, if you give AI 1000 food will get the same boost both if they are one-planet minor and if they are galaxy-spawning empire with 1k food income per month. This means that bribing eventually becomes overpowered anyway. With modified bribing, it can be used to get AI to cross relation threshold if you need just a few relation points for that defensive pact and it can no longer be used as a get-out-of-jail-free card.

If you want an AI to protect you in exchange of resources, become a tributary, that works perfectly fine in starnet. I modified AI acceptance, so most of them will accept such offers.
JayBee 🔰 9 Sep, 2019 @ 9:22am 
Agreed that the whole AI diplomacy is pretty poor and doesn't make a lot of sense. lol =)

I still see a pretty huge problem with the gift opinion though, it's just not worth it, it's so very little.

And I'm not even saying it's not good, I'm saying there's no reason whatsoever to give a gift under any circumstances. You'd have to give the AI 100k in resources to get a descent enough result.

The decay is also way to high, especially for what's being invested (not that anyone would gift anything really).

What is effectively being done is removing the option to gift anything, which is fine if that's what you want to do, I disagree with that concept myself but others might be good.

Another question is, since gifting is completely useless, does the AI take that into account when they are gifting resources, I've not noticed how the ai gifts to ai but if gifting is useless then the ai shouldn't gift at all.

Dealing with scale would need a complete overhaul of gifting which is beyond me how best to implement, clearly having the ai understand any new change would be an issue as well. The easiest way would probably be to scale the gifting based on the game year, still inaccurate of course but easiest.

A better solution would be to base it on something like administrative capacity usage, and the best solution would be to actually evaluate the AIs gifting as it relates to the other empires production of resources.

None of those are perfect but they're food for thought.

I'm sure there will be some awesome changes to diplomacy sometime in the future, there's a lot of material from other games paradox can use for ideas, and porting over concepts from other paradox games like eu4 certainly will go a long way. Whatever they do I'm confident that it will very modable as they should know that the community is the best place for innovation such as this mod.

I am liking generally how starnet works otherwise, I'm not in favour of the harsh overall modifiers used after taking a deep dive into the code, but I certainly agree its better than the base game, personally I'm currently trying a gifting opinion of 0.25 and 0.33 with a decay of 4, and I've also gone through and updated ethics opinion to a little less harsh than you have done, I don't mind a challenge, I just don't like starting with a head wound. heh

Starnet also means that over time there's going to be a lot less AI empires hanging around. I've found that's been a pretty good result.

I'm trying to find the part of the base code related to trading communication links and the inherent value but for some reason I don't see it. Any chance you've noticed where it may be hiding?

Finally, I'll say it again, as it stands gifting is basically useless. 8^)

I don't think I'd play Stellaris without this mod (and some gentler mod mod changes).



Last edited by JayBee 🔰; 9 Sep, 2019 @ 9:31am
xika 12 Sep, 2019 @ 1:24am 
Don't want to contradict your other points, but I have one small thing to add.

Originally posted by salvor:
I think the default vanilla handling of bribes is very bad, the amount of relation boost you get does not scaled depending on AI size, if you give AI 1000 food will get the same boost both if they are one-planet minor and if they are galaxy-spawning empire with 1k food income per month.

That's not entirely true. How much trade acceptance and how much opinion you get in turn depends on what and how much they need. It's true that you can almost always find something to push em to 100 but it varies from empire to empire what exactly you need.

And they also have caps.

For example in my current game one empire gets me 11 trade value per 1K food up until 13K and then it's 0 immediately. The next empire of similar size caps out at 4.1K food (also 11/1K). Next empire caps at 9.1K but values it at 8/1K. A smaller empire caps at 4.5K but values it at 14/1K.

So there is some variance and I assume it depends on demand, production and reserve.

You can also find trade deals were the other empire doesn't even give you 1/1K.
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