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-Her damage was nerfed due to her combo potential, and fear that against someone unprepared she may do way too much damage. After analyzing the other characters though, I may give her some of her strength back. Takes too much effort to kill an opponent.
-Faster jab? Say no more!
-Yeah I think giving F-Tilt cancels like Dan suggested may have broke the move a bit, on top of the fact that it pushes her forward. I'll see if I can find a way to balance it out again while still being able to cancel into specials.
-The "arm break" sprite is what's known in animation as a "Break Frame" in which you bend a character's physics or anatomy in such a way to put more emphasis on the strength and motion of the attack. It's just an animation trick, though maybe I should have even more lean into the animation if that's the case
-along with the strength buffs, u and d strong will be adjusted. I didn't give them the same love and attention like I did f strong
-I agree with you on dash and side special, good call!
-See THAT'S where her Dair hitbox was before, but people were crying to nerf it. I'll bring it out a bit sooner, but I'm afraid to touch dair tbh lol
-Giving me permission to increase Fair's range is a dangerous move, and I hope you are prepaed for it
-also good call on up special, honestly more sweet spots like her nspecial has is a pretty good idea
I'm taking a few days to rest and get back to my actual job, but these changes will be considered when I get back to it!
-maybe make down tilt send the opponent to an upward angle more consistently so it can send into other moves because apart from that down tilt feels pretty useless
-if down tilt sends up then side tilt could send forward and up with consistent knockback so combos early game are possible
-give side b more incentive to be used like maybe make a really strong hitbox at the end of it that has a lot of knockback
-either make up B multihit so it has more use from ground to air, or make it have a strong hitbox so it can be used for edgeguarding
-Make the first 2 hits of jab send the opponent towards you making the third hit connect more reliably.
also whenever you run and charge a smash attack you slide making it almost impossible to hit a target.
and as black sheep mentions
1. Give her more combos. Probably the thing my friend complained about the most. Combos for the moment are mainly just up air ladders and jab->ftilt->nair, and I want this character's combo game to be fun and expressive.
2. Rework her special moves. This character seems too dependent on her normals and I want to actually have an incentive to use her special moves. I'd say that neutral special, side special, and down special need to be reworked. Up special is okay, but the launch angle should be more consistent so I can kill off the top with it more often.
3. Nerf her strong attacks. A little thing I like to call "Little Mac Syndrome". This character has pretty overpowered strong attacks. They come out fast, have good range, side strong stuns, down strong spikes, up strong starts combos. They need more startup and actually fair knockback angles.
4. Buff her damage. This mainly applies to her normals. Her strongs do a decent amount of damage, but her normals (mainly air attacks) have abysmal damage numbers. I want to be able to rack up damage the way I know thisw character can.
And that's about it. If these suggestions are taken into account, maybe my friend will stop complaining whenever I pick this character!
Suggestions not related to character balance:
1. Animation edits. Up tilt, up strong, up air, and back air could really use reworked animations. The rest of the animations are beautiful, but I really don't feel like these 4 moves live up to the standard that the rest of her moveset does animation-wise. Also, I feel like she needs a new taunt. The current one just doesn't feel right, but heck that's just my opinion.
2. New alternate color. The black and white color needs to go. Seriously, all the other colors are amazing (I especially like the Little Mac inspired one), but the black and white one is so ugly. I'm not even exaggerating. I'm not sure what to replace it with, but it just needs to get deleted right now.
-Reworked down special idea: Counter that leads into an uppercut, starts combos. Animation-wise, it would start like a Street Fighter 3 ish parry animation, and if an opponent hits it, it does the stuff listed above.
-Reworked side special idea: Same animation, same movement properties, but has a higher launch angle. And yes, it starts combos, because I imagine that this character could be a more fast paced combo machine than they currently are.
-Reworked neutral special idea: Traditional fighting game style rekka move. 3 hits, press the button to get 2nd and 3rd hit after the initial hit. 2 weak jabs leading into a powerful right hook, kills at around 85-90%. In air, still does the 2 weak jabs, but the finisher sends the opponent down at an angle similar to forward air. Speaking of forward air...
-Forward air changes: Sends more outward than downward.
-Down air changes: Hitbox comes out a little sooner, but is less powerful.
-New taunt: Faces the screen and holds up a championship belt. After all, she is a world class boxer, right?
-Alternate color update: Screw just having a new alternate color to replace the ugly black and white color, we need a full fledged alternate costume! My idea is that they could don a dark blue hoodie in a fashion similar to Little Mac. I'm not expecting this to become a thing, but I personally think it would look really cool and if it was added would definitely be the costume I would use.
Edit time bois
-Up tilt (New animation): Sort of like the up tilt used for the Kris mod (minus the sword), can gatling combo into Up strong.
-Up strong (New animation/rework): Looks a lot like KO punch from Smash Ultimate, hitbox changes to match the new animation.
-Back air (New animation): Basically just Captain Falcon's back air.
-Up air (New animation/rework): 3% damage as opposed to 1%, weak uppercut, hitbox edits to be more in line with the new animation
-Side special properties change: Maybe instead of the combo potential maybe do like a sweet spot at the very end of the move? (Sort of like Wolf's illusion)
1-Eu gostaria que o jab aumentasse para 4 hits, sendo o terceiro o ftilt e o quarto um oraora da vida, e o ftilt mudasse para outro golpe que não fosse tão spam assim e que conseguisse mesclar com o jab, seja no meio do uso do jab para cancelá-lo, antes do jab para dar um startup melhor ou no fim para cancelar o oraora e poder emendar um strong
2-O uspecial quando feito no chão eu gostaria que não tirasse a opção de mobilidade, assim vocês poderiam fazer com que emendasse em um combo no ar, e se possível adicionar a opção de carga para ir mais alto e longe, e se não for desbalanceado, também dar mais dano, essa opção de carregar pode dar uma vulnerabilidade no ar igual se vê com o Etalus
3-O fspecial poderia ter um sweetspot e um cancelamento ao acertar o alvo, ao invés de percorrer toda a distância, assim o combate permaneceria fechado o tempo todo e esse golpe seria mais recompensador ao usar e abriria mais combos
4-O nspecial tem que ter uma função de carga, assim você pode soltar antes para evitar toda a demora, e as propriedades como o crítico que sempre está presente atualmente só poderia se usar se carregar ao máximo
5-Não é uma recomendação, e sim um questionamento, não entendo para que serve o dspecial
Podem responder em inglês sem problemas, eu consigo ler de boas, meu único problema é transcrever esse texto meu para inglês, então estarei usando o google tradutor
Hello, good night, I like your character very much and I find it extremely fun to play with her, here are some suggestions for the character
1-I would like the jab to increase to 4 hits, the third being ftilt and the fourth a oraora, and the ftilt change to another move that wasn't so much spam and could mix with the jab, either in the middle of the jab to cancel it, before the jab to give a better startup or at the end to cancel the oraora and use a strong
2-The uspecial when done on the groud i would like to not just kill all the mobility option, so you could make it mix in a combo in the air, and if possible add the charge option to go higher and further (and if not so unbalanced) and do more damage, this charging option can give an air vulnerability just as seen with Etalus
3-The fspecial could have a sweetspot and stop when hitting the target instead of going all the way, so the combat would become close more often, this move would be more rewarding and would give opening to more combos.
4-nspecial has to have a charge function, so you can drop it first to avoid all the delay, and properties like the critical that is always present actually could only be used if charged all the way.
5-It's not a recommendation, but a question, I don't understand what dspecial is for.
You can answer in English without problems, I can understand with no problem, my only problem is transcribing this text to English, so I'll be using google translator
Hey, i love this color rsrsrsrs
Really it just boils down to this: please adjust her damage/knockback numbers, mostly the damage tho. While I can see the design intent of having her use large strings to rack up damage, in her current state she just doesn't compete with the rest of the cast. Feels very similar to Smash Ultimate Sheik in this regard. Here are some comparisons between Ash's damage and other cast members' but mostly Maypul's, since I feel she serves as a decent analog from the base roster:
1) Jab - Ash 2%/hit (active frame 8) vs. Maypul 3%/hit (active frame 4). Seeing as Ash is a cheetah boxer, having jab frame 3 or 4 would make sense, and since it functions nearly identically to Maypul's I would recommend the damage be increased to match.
2) Up/Down Strong - Ash 5% & 6% vs Maypul 11% & 10%. Here I don't honestly know how exactly to adjust the numbers, seeing as Ash's D-strong serves as a nice gimping tool so damage is less significant, while U-strong can be a combo starter at lower percents/depending on opponent DI. I do think at least that U-strong should have scaling knockback such that it can kill reliably at higher percents.
3) Forward Strong - This move just screams primary kill tool to me, but I consistently find that it fails to kill until 100%+, which is hard to get with her low damage per hit. To be fair this may be anecdotal/I'm not reliably remembering on what stages and/or against how heavy of opponents I have used this move on, but it still feels like it fails to kill a bit too often. Additionally, it deals only 8% (vs Maypul 11%), but clearly it's a big ol' "Lights Out!" kind of punch. it's not safe to just throw out with wild abandon, but it should definitely hit more satisfyingly than it currently does (which to be fair still is quite a bit thanks to the neat paralyze effect).
4) Uair- I get the impression that her low damaging aerials drew inspiration from Little Mac in smash, but seeing as Rivals is a different beast entirely the current numbers are dangerously low. The unique tech of "hitfalling" (the ability to initiate a fastfall on hit with an aerial, even if you have not reached the apex of your jump) allows for some incredibly potent strings with single hit aerials such as but not limited to: Maypul Bair (first hit only), Ranno Nair, Ori Nair/Uair/1st hit Fair, Etalus Nair, et cetera. Ash Uair also falls into this category. However, the 1% damage makes it devastatingly weaker than any of the other mentioned moves, to the point that it almost doesn't feel worth it to use (I say almost because it does still allow for some nasty combo extensions into tilts, tho the damage is still low compared to other characters' similar strings). Bumping it up to 2 or 3% would still make it generally weaker than other characters's moves (Maypul Bair1 4%, Ranno Nair 5%), but would help her strings keep up with other cast members.
5) Nair - similar suggestion to Uair. Additionally, the move seems to not connect properly/just seems to not lead to anything in many cases. It strikes me as a shorter, swifter version of Clairen's Fair, tho meant more as a combo-extender as opposed to an ender like Clairen's, but maybe a similar amount of hitstun as that Fair would would help Ash's Nair.
6) Bair/Fair - Bair's 3% should be bumped up a bit (maybe to 5%?), keeping in line with the above suggestions, and Fair's knockback could use some scaling. While I don't think Ash is meant to go deep on edgeguarding almost ever, Fair has a great angle for some recovery denial that it's too good to pass up from time to time. Sadly, tho it almost never leads to a kill at high percents, but by such a short distance (opponent is almost always in the magnifying glass but just not quite past the blastzone). Definitely should only be the knockback growth that is adjusted, tho, since its angle could kill too early if the base knockback were too great.
7) Tilts - First and foremost, these are definitely noob-destroyers as they link into themselves repeatedly if the opponent doesn't DI properly. However, other characters have similarly functional tilts that deal close to double the damage, and even if they don't chain they tend to lead into a damaging aerial. Examples: Ranno Utilt deals 9% on hit (so 18% on a chain) and leads into practically all his aerials, Maypul Utilt deals 8% and leads into most of her aerials as well. Meanwhile Ash's U/F/Dtilt deal 4/3/5%, respectively. Even on a chain of 2 (which is all that is reliable assuming the opponent DIs at all), that still on average is less damage on the total string than other combo-heavy base roster characters. bumping Utilt and Ftilt up by ~2% each would greatly impact her damage potential.
Putting it all together, something like Utilt>Utilt>Uair>Uair>Utilt>Bair would go from dealing only 17% to now dealing 29%. Compare this to Ranno dealing 33% off of jab1>Dtilt>Dtilt>Utilt>Bair. So Ash still has to work for more complicated combos but she's definitely keeping up with the other heavy-hitting combo characters.
The last few suggestions I've got are increasing Nspecial's knockback greatly since it is so risky by feel less rewarding than Fstrong, increase Dspecial's knockback so it's not immediately techable on hit, and make it so Ash can walljump sooner out of Uspecial. It may just be that I'm bad and haven't gotten a good enough feel for her recovery yet, but I swear there's one final spin animation she does (no hitbox active) before you can actually walljump, and during it she loses a bit of height. I keep wanting to walljump at the apex of the move, but it doesn't register and I wind up dying unless I spam jump during the move's recovery frames.
I just want to end by saying again that I absolutely love this character and greatly appreciate all the heart, creativity, and massive effort that went into making her. She's incredibly fun to play and fits right in with the main roster. You clearly have knack for making movesets and I look forward to any future workshop characters you might whip up, assuming you have plans to make more. I genuinely hope the dev's consider adding widely popular workshop characters into the Definitive Edition on Xbox/Switch, and Ash definitely has my vote if they do. And regardless of whether or not any further balance adjustments are made for this character, thank you from the bottom of my heart for making Ash into a playable character. New main/secondary for sure! :D
So yeah, not much has changed. Shame. Time for more suggestions I guess...
1. Overall higher damage output. Seriously, this character has literal trash damage output. Even though this character can string together really long combos, they usually just consist of the same few moves (which my friend constantly complains about). I suggest that combo potential be slightly nerfed but have higher damage numbers on her moves.
2. Remove the ability for tilts to cancel into one another. If you spam ftilt, you win the game. Not as much so for up tilt, but it still needs to change.
3. Is it possible to have the normal hit sound and the "Ding ding" sound, play at the same time when you hit someone with the epic funny move? It just sounds wrong with just the "Ding ding". Also, dash attack and side special need better critical hit sounds to make it really sound like you're dealing a crushing blow.
4. Down special and neutral special still need to be reworked. These are the character's worst moves by far. Read my previous suggestions to learn more.
5. Remove back air's spike. With a character like King K. Rool, it's good, but with this character it just feels wrong. You can't combo out of it at all. Plus, this change severely contradicts what you said about this character having low damage because of combo potential.
6. Side special needs a bigger sweetspot. I just can't seem to hit it. This goes for dash attack too.
7. I THOUGHT I SAID REMOVE THE UGLY BLACK AND WHITE COLOR
Don't get me wrong, I still like the character, it's just the moveset really gets on my nerves.
1. Side/Down special both eating projectiles and overly safe. Ash is able to just spam either if she doesn't want to deal with a projectile, and against characters with either slow airspeed or startup on aerials, she can just side-special and completely avoid any danger. Also sourspot side-special > sweetspot side-special is just dumb.
2. Neutral B hits behind her, and it leads to some real jank kills
3. Up special's sweetspot hitbox spikes
(most of my experience playing against Ash is with playing Kris)
1. I love most of the new alts, but the black and white one STILL hasn't been deleted from existence and the new green color is even uglier than the black and white one. Get both of them out of my sight so I never have to complain about them again.
2. This character still needs special moves that people would actually want to use. Side special's sweet spot was removed (but why?), so add that back. Recovery is fine, but the hits need to connect a little better with a more consistent launch angle. And Neutral Special and Down Special are just awful moves. Down special is too weak, and Neutral special has so much startup that it's easy to get hit out of it, so they both need to be reworked or at least buffed a large amount. Maybe you could charge neutral special like Mollo's (another custom character) down B? Otherwise, see my above suggestions for ideas to rework these two moves.
3. My prayers have been answered in terms of the funny move's sound effects, but the critical hit sound... yeah that needs to be replaced. It just doesn't sound like I would imagine a critical hit to sound.
4. This character still needs higher damage output. Even though patches have addressed this problem, they still have trash damage output. Up air still only does 1 percent. Maybe if this character had higher damage output, they would have slightly more startup and end lag on their moves.
5. Side strong electrocuting the enemy makes no sense and a lack of a horizontal kill move really hurts this character's viability. Please remove the electric effect and have it kill at a reasonable percent.
That's it for my suggestions as of this patch. As always, I hope these are taken into consideration. I apologize for being critical of this character's obvious shortcomings, but I think this character has potential to be more than they currently are :)