Rivals of Aether

Rivals of Aether

Lilac the dragon
Dandy 6 Oct, 2019 @ 12:43pm
Serious Lilac Balance Discussion
First of all, I love playing as this character! This is probably my new favorite character to use in this game. I love the feel of the character. The sprite work is amazing too! It makes me a bit sad to know that workshop characters will probably never be accepted as fair use with the rest of the cast.

This character is OP at the moment, but I really think there is greatness in the design and the play style that comes with it. She has a very distinct "Rivals" feel to her moveset that orients around her specific mechanics and gives her a unique style. I very much enjoy her combo game and the way that her moves flow together. There are many OP characters on this workshop, but most of them seem to have a large amount of blatantly OP moves that are too effective on their own without really tying into each other. This one does really well to have a variety of moves that are weak and strong, which go well together into hit confirms that will secure a stronger attack or a kill.

Are you open to balance suggestions that would bring this character more in line with the default cast?

I will mention some things I noticed about the character. These pertain to balance, but there is also some general polish stuff too.

Her weight seems to be crazy high. Is she as heavy as Etalus? For a character of her size and speed, it really is way too much survivability. I can't throw specific numbers out there, but in a general ballpark, she should probably be 2/3rds the weight that she is now.

Her up strong attack is awesome! I love how it is weak and brings you into the air so that you can continue from there. That is something I have wanted to see in a character for a while now. I have no qualms on the balance of up strong, but I think it kinda overshadows her up tilt by being as fast with a lot more range. Perhaps the up tilt should be differentiated a bit? I have no suggestions on how to go about it.

Down strong feels pretty perfect as it is. F Strong is a bit weak and slow compared to other moves, but I like it this way because it balances out her rather prominent strengths in other areas. This is one of those things that contributes to an overall more unique character.

I love how the up air increases the jump height if you use it while rising! This is one of those mechanics that gives a lot of flavor to the character and makes it very fun to use. I really hope that aspect of the move will not be changed in the future. I brought this up mostly to praise how fun the move is, but it is also worth mentioning that the hitbox on the up air extends way too far below the character. I was able to hit some characters on the platform below me while falling on the platform. I am not saying to go overboard and make the hitbox only able to hit stuff above, but it probably should not extend below her feet.

Fair, nair, and Bair all seem perfect as they are. None of them have any properties that seem overly strong or unfair. It's actually rather beautiful how balanced the moves seem while offering good utility.

Dair is a lot of fun. I love the way you can cancel it on hit. It also allows for some pretty awesome pillar combos after you rise through an opponent with uair.

Jab. Jab. Jab. Jab. This is actually the biggest issue with the character at the moment in my eyes. The move is not blindingly OP, but it feels quite bad to get hit by this move as it is. It also feels rather degenerate to use this move on people. Simply put, it has way too much hitstun with way too little knockback. As a result, one jab often leads to several more jabs while the opponent is unable to really do anything about it and you can usually end it with a side tilt or dash attack. Also the hitbox goes slightly too far behind her, so you can end up stuck in it while behind her. I suggest tweaking the properties of the attack to avoid the inevitability of getting hit by several more jabs upon getting hit by one. One possibility is that you can reduce the hitstun of the move while allowing for a quick cancel into a DIFFERENT move like side tilt, down tilt, up tilt, or dash attack the same way that Kragg can do with his jab. This would leave the function of the move mostly unchanged while avoiding degenerate gameplay. Additionally, allowing a cancel from jab into up tilt, but NOT up strong, would be a way to differentiate those two moves and give more use to up tilt.

I like the way her Up special is not particularly good for recovery and leaves her completely helpless. It serves well to balance out the exceptionally strong parts of her recovery relating to side special.

Down special is interesting. I have not actually been using it as much as I should have been. It seems like you can earn yourself some extra credit in between moments by healing yourself. I have some skepticism about healing mechanics in fighting games because it has a potential to turn degenerate. I like that it has a cooldown and that opponents are able to make use of it as well. It definitely brings risk to the move. On another note, the general lack of a down special in combat probably serves to balance the character by removing another possible move that would have resulted in more options.

The double jump having a hitbox on it is great mechanic from her own game. It gives her a lot of similarity to her source material and it also hit confirms into side special in a way that seems fitting too.

Finally, SIDE SPECIAL!!! This move is incredibly fun to use. From reading the comments, it seems like it used to allow going in all directions. Limiting it to 45 degrees up or down seems like a really good change to me. The limited trajectories makes the move significantly more predictable and reactable. The lack of an up direction also removes overshadowing of her up special, which would not have much use. More importantly, the lack of an up direction significantly reduces degenerate possibilities with uair strings. It is already possible to carry people off the top at low percents with uair. Having only 45 degree angle up as an option makes it significantly harder to convert upward combos into side special. It requires much more specific circumstances and reading of DI, which makes it a lot more exciting when you do manage to land it that way.

Side special is incredibly strong as it is. The way it curves along the ground when you hit it at an angle from above allows for countless options and possibilities. The way the move is able to be jump canceled on the ground makes it very noncommittal since she is able to immediately wavedash back, which makes it very difficult to deal with the move for other players. I worry this aspect of it is OP, but it makes for such a fun combo game and movement style that I really don't want this aspect to be changed. Specifically, it makes her stage positioning very important in that it determines wicth options she has available. Being 45 degrees above the stage puts her in a very strong position with many frightening options. On the other hand, if she is unable to reach the ground at a direct angle, it leaves her rather vulnerable due to the predictable trajectory and the high endlag of the move if it is not jump canceled. This is a very good way to balance the move because it allows for her to be kept in a state of disadvantage when she is in one. On a side note, I also rather enjoy how you can drift backwards and platform cancel the endlag of the move after using it for recovery at a 45 degree upwards angle. It gives a layer of mixup to her recovery. This highly stage position dependent mechanic is what really makes her feel like a "Rivals" character to me. You have done an absolutely amazing job in this regard.

Now to address the elephant in the room, I think it is unavoidable that superarmor on her side special is OP. It makes the option pretty much unable to be contested and it often times allows it to work as a panic button in order to escape. To be fair, this game is much better equipped to deal with such a thing due to the strength of parrying. Parry actually allows for counter play and the behavior of players using this move becomes a lot more predictable than I thought at first. Even so, the combination of the speed, strength, and super armor make the move seem unbanlanced. I understand that in her game it actually comes with invincibility, but it also happens to have have a recharge meter that it requires in order to use. Come to think of it, I think the move may actually be completely balanced if you were to include the recharge meter as one of her mechanics in order to use the side special. It could be made to recharge over time at a pretty fast rate while further increasing in charge upon landing hits on enemies.

I am sorry to have written such a wall of text for you. I got carried away because I find this character to be so exciting. I hope all the balance concerns I have brought up are not just a nuisance to you, but feel free to tell me if that is the case.
Last edited by Dandy; 7 Oct, 2019 @ 7:52pm
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Asgrid  [developer] 7 Oct, 2019 @ 8:25am 
...WOW
Thank you so much for taking the time to write all of this! I'm so glad you're enjoying her this much
I'll take everything into account as soon as I have free time (In about 10 hours, because college)
I have to agree with pretty much everything you said. Most of my testing with this character was done against CPUs so all balancing feedback came from the comments.
It is ABSOLUTELY NOT a nuisance. It was a joy reading through all of this. I want to adress every individual thing but I currently don't have the time, so sadly it'll have to wait.

Btw I think her weight is the same as Sandbert's... oops
Asgrid  [developer] 7 Oct, 2019 @ 7:11pm 
Alright here it goes:

- I didn't even pay attention to the weight, absolutely going to change that. Since she can recover from anywhere making her light (and by extension die sooner) would be a good idea

- My idea for her playstyle is to combo your oponent towards the blast zone and then make it back to the stage with her *very* good recovery. That's the reason why her strong attacks are particularly weak and/or short-ranged. It does work really well for up strong however.

- Ustrong is a more powerful version of Utilt, the same way with Fstrong and Ftilt. I don't really know how to differentiate them :/

- The only time I use jabs is to cancel them into tilts immediately, so I haven't noticed the stun duration. Jab->Ustrong should really not be a thing. Going to fix that

- Up special is meant to be used close to the stage, giving you great height while also leaving you vulnerable in pratfall until you fall back down. If you're far from the stage you can either use fspecial diagonally, which will end up in the same situation, or use it horizontally and avoid bouncing off the wall.

- Dspecial is the only thing I would change about her kit, if I had a better option. Despite the risk of healing your enemy it's still a free heal after taking a stock. However if I lower the heal, it suddenly becomes a useless move. I'm thinking of adding a time period before you can strike the flower, so it at least requires more setup.

- And finally Fspecial... yeah. This was a fight between keeping features from the original game while also trying to make it fair. The one time I played against a friend it seemed really easy to parry it, but I shouldn't just rely on that as the way to counter it. Having a recharge meter does sound interesting.
Last edited by Asgrid; 7 Oct, 2019 @ 7:44pm
Dandy 7 Oct, 2019 @ 7:50pm 
I really appreciate you taking the time to read through my feedback. I do not mean to force my views on your creation, but I am glad you are taking them to mind.

It is true that side special is rather easy to parry if used directly without cancels. That makes edge guarding her more manageable than I expected. However, if she has access to ground angles, she is able to quickly start the move and wavedash out of it to bait a parry. Wavedashing out of side special is incredibly fun and gives her a lot of cool movement options, so I really don't want that aspect to be removed. However, it seems like risk vs reward gets skewed in her favor a bit too much between the ability to super armor through all attacks and the ability to easily cancel it.

A meter would add a resource management aspect to a very strong ability, which would balance it similarly to Asha in Slap City. Another property that may be able to be tweaked is a minimum distance traveled along the ground before it can be jumped out. I mentioned this one because PM did that for Ike's side special, but I don't like this idea. It can feel awkward to have your input dropped due to trying to jump right before the cancel period. The other property that may be able to be tweaked is the amount of super armor? Idk if rivals allows for threshold based super armor, but attacks above a certain percent damage being able to break through the armor could be a balancing point as well.

I remembered two other things that seemed like an issue to me. Dash attack seems to have a very large amount of hitstun combined with little knockback. It seems to result in rather easy tech chasing without risk of getting parried. The other thing is that dair seems to be too potent against off stage opponents. I recall getting the certain kill screen flash on an Etalus around 30% off the stage. I think other spikes in this game tend to give opponents a chance to recover until higher percentages.

Again, thank you for your amazing work on this character! I do not want to pressure you into sudden action or immediate responses. I encourage to you to use your time as it is needed and only put the time into this when you feel like it. I will just be grateful that I am able to have so much fun with your work :)
Dandy 13 Oct, 2019 @ 7:41pm 
I just tried out the latest version of the character. I think the changes feel great. Jab into tilt feels even smoother than before. I have not been able to try out the changes against a human yet, but it seems to me like the character is pretty balanced in this state.

I like the changes made to side special. The cooldown on ground cancel is not something that occurred to me, but it seems like a rather clever solution. That combined with the super armor weakening is a really good way to nerf the move without a drastic change.

I don't really have an opinion on the down special. Five seconds feels like a rather long time, which makes the move seem scary to use. I really wonder what other people think about this move.

Would it be alright if I linked this mod to the subreddit for this game? I feel like it deserves more attention for how fitting the character feels to the game.
Asgrid  [developer] 14 Oct, 2019 @ 11:43am 
Sure! That'd be great, go ahead.

The 5s wait might be too much, but I currently have no way to properly test it. So far it seems... fine. Having more opinions would definitely help
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