Rivals of Aether

Rivals of Aether

Renamon
Towerdepths 3 Jul, 2021 @ 10:13pm
Renamon Gameplay Input and Suggestions
Hey, longtime subscriber here. I wanted to get in touch regarding Renamon's newest kit rework, that you did about a month ago. At first I decided to keep it quiet, mostly because I wanted to give the new kit a go, but after a while of playtesting I decided that it's probably worthwhile to give my input at the moment.

That being: right now I feel like Renamon is in a rather weak place, as far as scaling to a good deal of the high-quality workshop mods (such as Epinel, Kris, Iroh, etc.) and even the main cast goes.

Please understand that I bring this up not as a bash to your work - to the contrary; I'm a huge fan of the character as well as playstyle, and would like to see it become even more popular - but as a critique of the current status of the character in hopes of seeing her receive some improvements come the next update.

First, let me bring up my main concerns.

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I'll start with the specials.

My biggest issue is with Diamond Storm. For a move that supposedly acts as a combo starter and extender, the latest update put a lot of lag on it, both starting and ending, compared to before. I don't have a problem with this, I actually think it's a good thing that she's got it in place to keep from spamming. However, therein lies the problem: for what Diamond Storm does, I've found that it's usually too much cost for too little benefit.

Diamond Storm loses on almost any clash I've seen it make, and the payoff is a paltry 4% and a weak knockup effect that still gives the enemy the ability to use their fastest aerial to stuff your attempt to get a combo out of it. Especially at range, where the only thing it's good for is free percent, and even then other characters (even Kris, whose main option is to use that Clairen-tier reach to fire off brutal combos) are either able to trade at an advantage or completely stuff it out, invalidating the usefulness of what supposedly is Renamon's best tool for approaching and combo starting.

I don't actually have any issue with Up or Down-Special. Both are quite useful as-is, and I can happily say that I've managed to score cheeky spikes with the aerial down-special and make my way back onstage after claiming that stock.

Side-Special is also alright, though I would hope that the next time Renamon gets updated that the short-range version is either sped up a couple frames or given a little more range; right now it also feels a little weak, though I also recognize its ability to potentially chain into Up-Strong. Even then though, it's DI-dependent, which means that if you start too far and the enemy DI's out, or you start too close and they DI up, that puts them out of range of U-strong, which leaves you wide open for retaliation.

This actually goes into my next major concern for Renamon: her reach. Or rather, her lack thereof on the bulk of her moves.

When designing an attack, four things stand out to me as primary choices to depend on: reach, damage, speed, and utility. Yet, when I play Renamon, her reach naturally is so terrible that it's more likely that I whiff than hit an attack that should theoretically land. Her jab is alright, though I think it could be a frame or two faster for the first hit as well. Her U-Tilt and Side-Tilt are a different story, though.

Side-tilt is decent, at least for having a little more range than jab, but could still use a little extra reach. The followup uppercut however is in real need of extra support; as it is, the enemy can SDI out of the followup and punish it due to its slow nature and low reach.

U-Tilt is also in need of a touchup, specifically in its reach. It loses even to aerials due to how low its vertical hitbox is, and its horizontal reach is so low she needs to be practically inside of the enemy's hurtbox for it to connect.

D-Tilt is good as-is, as a tool to tack on some extra damage in a combo and lift the enemy a bit so Renamon can use her other options to extend her advantage.

Same with D-Strong, as it's got decent reach, decent startup, and has an acceptable window of vulnerability for whiffing it. If I had to change something, I'd say the damage is a little on the low side, but even then I don't really have a big issue with D-Strong.

Side-Strong... that one is a mixed bag. It's always been slow, and powerful, with good reach, but when I say slow I mean ABYSMALLY slow. It's SUPER meaty though, particularly the tipper, so I can wave away that particular move's biggest flaw as a mixup kill option.

Up-Strong, though... I really, REALLY want to like this move. The double-kick up looks cool and has a good oomph to it, but it's just. So. Slow. As if that weren't rough enough, its reach is as bad as Side-Strong is slow.

Up-Aerial is good. It's fast, it's not too short-reached, it's got good coverage around Renamon, and even if the individual hits are not particularly strong you can usually combo them into each other pretty easily, especially when sharking.

Back-Aerial is... okay, but its reach is a little lacking.

Forward-Aerial feels just like Back-Aerial but slower, which REALLY hurts Renamon's ability to chain together aerial combos I feel.

Neutral-Aerial has the right idea. It's fast, it's weak, it's meant to be used in a similar fashion as Down-Tilt. At the moment though, hitstun is so low that it doesn't really warrant use, particularly given that most enemies have a fast option that lets them take advantage of Renamon's low reach to punish even a connected Nair despite supposedly being in disadvantage.

I don't really have an issue with Down-Aerial, given how you're supposed to interchange between it and aerial Down-Special. I suppose I'm just not sure the circumstances where it warrants more use than aerial Down-Special, though.

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TL;DR, right now Renamon feels... clunky, to me. Too much startup on moves with too little range or too little power to warrant them, and on the moves that do have good range they're so slow that enemies in hitstun or special fall can usually recover and roll away before the hits actually come out.

With my explanation as to what I see as major faults to the character though, I'll also suggest some improvements that I believe would go a really long way in making Renamon a much more powerful and enjoyable character.

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By and large, Renamon's biggest flaw is her reach, and her being slower than before as far as moves go definitely doesn't help. When she can combo, she can do a LOT of damage, and she's not lacking in kill options either, though most of those are situational/mixups. The issue of the matter is chaining those hits together.

For Neutral-Special, I would increase her projectile's priority, and/or the speed which she uses it. That way it doesn't lose out to just about everything under the sun, and/or Renamon is able to more consistently score combos off of it or otherwise be able to better rack up damage if the enemy is trying to keep their distance. Alternatively, give it a little more hitstun so an enemy with a three or four-frame aerial isn't able to just mash out of it.

For Side-Special, I'd just make the short range damage dash a little faster, and/or give it a little more reach.

For the Down-Special and Up-Special, I'd leave them as-is.

For her grounded attacks save for Down-Tilt, I'd either increase reach or speed a notable amount, or both by a smaller amount, for more consistency.

For her aerial attacks, I'd do much the same; give Nair a little more hitstun, Fair more speed (and maybe a touch of reach), Bair a touch more reach, and differentiate Dair from aerial D-Special a little more, and she's set there.

Side-Strong could reach a little farther, or hit a little harder, or swing a little faster, but it's acceptable as-is. Same with D-Strong for that matter. Up-Strong however, needs a lot more speed, or a good deal more reach. I'd say that speed is the bigger concern here though, as long as Renamon's more capable of scooping enemies in front of her when she starts kicking up.

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At the end of the day though, it's your character to mod, and like I said before this post is done out of a hope that Renamon becomes a more enjoyable experience for the players. Whether or not you take these these thoughts and put them into practice, or even into mind for any further edits of your own, is ultimately up to you. I just hope that this discussion post gives you some food for thought on how to further your workshop design.
Last edited by Towerdepths; 3 Jul, 2021 @ 10:17pm
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Showing 1-2 of 2 comments
DLshadows  [developer] 6 Jul, 2021 @ 5:05pm 
I hate that steam didn't notify me of this and i had to happen to look at the page to see. First thing i must do is thank you for taking time out of your day to write up all this, it really is amazing to see someone who really cares about the character i put a lot of time into.

She was my first character and such has a lot of flaws that i've ironed out it more recent characters. I haven't had much of a clue how to go about improving her kit until now. So i will be taking all of this and putting it into a solid update that i hope turns her into the fun character i originally set out to make.

So once again i must thank you, and i hope i can put out an update that you and all her other fans can really enjoy!
jchaosmaster 23 Sep, 2022 @ 11:03pm 
I myself honestly after playing her my only real problems is Renamons down air special and Up air special leave alot to be desired. Should i assume your using the Digimon battle spirit as base.

I don't mind Renamon being a character that can rack of damage but have trouble finshing off kills. That help keeps her balanced. My issues are with her Up air special and down Air speical. To start with the Up, I find it almost useless as recovery and attack. i dont know what the hit box is but it seems to be non existent for dealing damage. So often i just continue to up attack or nutral air attack. Second problem is yea it goes high and can be altured but does the switch up every come into play when fighting. Even more with the bad hit box. As suggestion would be maybe have it act like kirby wind cutter. Big damage less burst up and straight down with a damage frame in front.

Now my problem with her down air speical... what's it's point. I mean her down air is already down angle drop attack. Why does she need/have a second. half the time her transformtion start lag hasn't even ended before the enemy has moved. I could understand if it was a straight down but its just another down angle.


Still I honestly love renamon and think she plays way bettter after her up date.
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