RimWorld

RimWorld

[JPT] Human Resources
General feedback after a long play through
Just thought I'd offer some feedback after my first play through with HR.

I use a very mod heavy setup, so I'll start by mentioning the most important mods I used as regards the mod:

Thinking Spot (TS) (So you can probably guess what type of games I prefer...) played on naked brutality (or a custom version of it), Children and Pregnancy (C&P) (once my tribe is up and running I played quite an insular tribe with the vast majority of my pawns having been born into it), Hospitality (more on that later), and a myriad of other mods like Rimefeller/Rimatomics or other mods that add tech to research. I also employ a myriad of house rules depending on what type of story I want to play - I mentioned one of them above about how my tribe was getting new pawns, but I disallow myself from building some buildings that my mods add because I find them OP, but like some of the other things the mod offers.

So, first thoughts (apart from the simple fact that I really enjoyed the impact HR has):

TS complements HR extremely well - but I mention it in particular because it adds a number of new research nodes and when combined with other mods, then the library can get... rather large. Now, it may be that the server ameliorates this issue somewhat, as it can store all of the tech in a small space, but whilst the bookcase gives a research buff to the research desk, you don't really want to move those bookcases into storage. (Or even just to declutter your research/study area...) It would be nice if the server gives an equivalent buff to bookshelves for that reason.

Speaking of the server... it would be nice to have a way (other than dev mode) to either discard or stack databases of techs now that they can't be stored in bookshelves. Just a minor thing, but as you can't sell them once they are on the cloud there seems to be no point in keeping them, and even if you want to keep them they take up the equivalent space of half a book shelf of books currently! This may be an issue that's specific to me having researched a lot of tech before the server update came in, however. I must have had about 25 or 30 databases lying around that I couldn't store anywhere other than the floor. (Oh, as an aside, this doesn't seem to be compatible with non-specific HR storage solutions, as although I could tick the box for 'knowledge' in my deep shelves from LWM Deep Storage, none of the databases would actually get placed in them.)

As regards C&P, HR interacts with it a little oddly at times. You can (if you are weak willed) set your toddlers to study even if they are incapable of work (in C&P that is until they turn 3). That means your toddler can theoretically turn 3 and then almost immediately build you a nuclear reactor... :P

Whilst I found this amusing, it did bring home a wider point to me that a child should have some benefit from being born in a high tech colony compared to that of a tribal know-nothing colony. There's considerable science today saying that the earlier children get acclimatised to technology the better, and those who aren't acclimatised to it by 3 will have a harder time of life with tech than those who are acclimatised with it before then.

I'm not sure if going down the rabbit hole of trying to implement something that would be something you'd like to attempt, however. Maybe something simple, like a buff to a child's intellectual stat dependant on what tech level their colony is at might work? So neolithic (or lower) gives +0 whilst spacer gives +6 (say) to the child's intellectual skill. That would simulate the child's advantage when it comes to learning new techs and also offer some scaling for them as the game goes through the tech levels.

So from the above two points you've probably got an idea of the kind of game I play - research is slow, and I play a more generational game than a sprint to leave the planet. I may be unusual in this, I don't know, however... one thing I would really like to see is an ability to have more control over study speed. Currently the difficulty settings can slow down research or studying... why not go one step further, and put it in the hands of the player? Personally, for my style of playthrough, whilst the research speed was pretty spot on for me, I would have liked to slow down the study speed further (particularly whilst I was in late game). An ability to set a percentage study/research speed from 1 to 100% in the options would be a very nice addition imho.

As an aside, I thought HR meshed very well with mods that add late game techs, which can otherwise feel like they are all gifted to you at once with not much effort. It was a welcome surprise to me to find that a mod I had downloaded to play around with in late game after I would ordinarily have 'won' the game still felt like I had to earn the OP stuff.

Okay, a couple of specific mod interaction comments now.

I've had the damnedest time trying to track down a bug with Hospitality where my guests were stealing my weapons after practising with them. I still haven't been able to work out what is going on, mainly because of the difficulty in replicating conditions. I think it may be a combination of Hospitality and Simple Sidearms causing the issue, but I can't prove it.

Essentially, what's happened is that a guest has gone to learn weapons and picked up a whole plethora of weapons. It then learns one, drops it, and keeps the rest of the weapons in their inventory. I've caught my own colonists engaging in the same behaviour, at times, which is how I worked out what was happening. (My carefully stored masterwork sniper range of weapons which I was keeping stored to deal with psychic ships kept mysteriously disappearing and I finally tracked it down to guests engaging in this behaviour.)

One thing I would say is that come late game I didn't notice my own pawns taking a large amount of weapons, so it's possible this may have been fixed somehow, or else it's just because my pawns had already learnt all the weapons on hand and so weren't practising. I'll keep an eye out to see if it is still going on whenever I start a new game. I didn't want to report it as an issue as I can't track it down, but though it was important to at least mention it.

The other specific comment is as regards Rimatomics - because there is a specialised system for gaining new Rimatomics research, no HR changes impact upon it. That means that constructors can build buildings without any specific knowledge etc. I suspect that there's no easy way for you to cope with that, but again, thought I might as well mention it.

If anything else occurs to me of general feedback I'll let you know, but this post is already quite long enough!
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jptrrs  [developer] 5 Mar, 2021 @ 7:36am 
Wow. lots of after thoughts! :) Thanks!

Now, it may be that the server ameliorates this issue somewhat, as it can store all of the tech in a small space, but whilst the bookcase gives a research buff to the research desk, you don't really want to move those bookcases into storage. (Or even just to declutter your research/study area...) It would be nice if the server gives an equivalent buff to bookshelves for that reason.
It does! And it's calculated the same way, but considering the books online instead of the ones on connected shelves.

Speaking of the server... it would be nice to have a way (other than dev mode) to either discard or stack databases of techs now that they can't be stored in bookshelves. Just a minor thing, but as you can't sell them once they are on the cloud there seems to be no point in keeping them, and even if you want to keep them they take up the equivalent space of half a book shelf of books currently! This may be an issue that's specific to me having researched a lot of tech before the server update came in, however. I must have had about 25 or 30 databases lying around that I couldn't store anywhere other than the floor. (Oh, as an aside, this doesn't seem to be compatible with non-specific HR storage solutions, as although I could tick the box for 'knowledge' in my deep shelves from LWM Deep Storage, none of the databases would actually get placed in them.)
It might have been intensified by having started before the update, as drives cannot be produced, only awarded on quests or bought from traders, but I get what you're saying. They should be "storable" just like any other item, but I haven't tested specifically with Deep Storage, so I'll take a look. But, you know, like any other items in RimWorld you can always sell them or let them rot outdoors.

As regards C&P, HR interacts with it a little oddly at times. You can (if you are weak willed) set your toddlers to study even if they are incapable of work (in C&P that is until they turn 3). That means your toddler can theoretically turn 3 and then almost immediately build you a nuclear reactor... :P
Sounds more lika a C&P problem than a HR problem. I mean, they also shouldn't be able to do other tasks, right?

Whilst I found this amusing, it did bring home a wider point to me that a child should have some benefit from being born in a high tech colony compared to that of a tribal know-nothing colony.
Not sure if I follow... so, they should or shouldn't be able to build nuclear reactors? :)
The research/study/document is already linked to the pawn's tech level, and that, in turn, is determined by the most advanced tech they know. So have your child learn neolithic knowledge and he will have neolithic research speed, have him study orbital mechanics and you'll have a mini-scientist.

one thing I would really like to see is an ability to have more control over study speed. Currently the difficulty settings can slow down research or studying... why not go one step further, and put it in the hands of the player? Personally, for my style of playthrough, whilst the research speed was pretty spot on for me, I would have liked to slow down the study speed further (particularly whilst I was in late game).
Nice to know the current settings are on the sweetspot! This kinda makes me want to avoid tinkering further with this... but I'll think about it. In the meantime, if you want to, you can always edit the ResearchSpeedFactor on the XML for the workstations. Reducing it for the Network Terminal will automatically make late game research harder.

As an aside, I thought HR meshed very well with mods that add late game techs, which can otherwise feel like they are all gifted to you at once with not much effort. It was a welcome surprise to me to find that a mod I had downloaded to play around with in late game after I would ordinarily have 'won' the game still felt like I had to earn the OP stuff.
Nice!! :-)

I've had the damnedest time trying to track down a bug with Hospitality where my guests were stealing my weapons after practising with them. I still haven't been able to work out what is going on, mainly because of the difficulty in replicating conditions. I think it may be a combination of Hospitality and Simple Sidearms causing the issue, but I can't prove it.
I'll keep an eye on it. I can only hope one of our later updates to the system really has solved it.

The other specific comment is as regards Rimatomics - because there is a specialised system for gaining new Rimatomics research, no HR changes impact upon it. That means that constructors can build buildings without any specific knowledge etc. I suspect that there's no easy way for you to cope with that, but again, thought I might as well mention it.
Yeah, there isn't. Rimatomics research is its own parallel system and I don't intend to mess with it.
afterthought.btw 6 Mar, 2021 @ 3:15pm 
Originally posted by jptrrs:
Wow. lots of after thoughts! :) Thanks!

Sorry ;)

It does! And it's calculated the same way, but considering the books online instead of the ones on connected shelves.

Ah - I could have sworn that my servers didn't show any linkage to my desks. Good to know.


It might have been intensified by having started before the update, as drives cannot be produced, only awarded on quests or bought from traders, but I get what you're saying. They should be "storable" just like any other item, but I haven't tested specifically with Deep Storage, so I'll take a look. But, you know, like any other items in RimWorld you can always sell them or let them rot outdoors.

Hmm - I couldn't find any trader who would buy them whether caravan, trade ship, or settlements on the map. Also, I don't put things out to rot on principle because (a) it spoils my immersion and (b) wealth degradation techniques like that feel like gaming the game rather than playing it.

Sounds more lika a C&P problem than a HR problem. I mean, they also shouldn't be able to do other tasks, right?

Indeed - they don't do any tasks with C&P. If I had to guess, I would imagine that in order to allow pawns who refuse to research to learn subjects so they aren't virtually useless, you've done something to allow them to study? If so, I'd presume that whatever you've done has also bypassed however C&P disables all skills for the 0-3 stage.

Not sure if I follow... so, they should or shouldn't be able to build nuclear reactors? :)
The research/study/document is already linked to the pawn's tech level, and that, in turn, is determined by the most advanced tech they know. So have your child learn neolithic knowledge and he will have neolithic research speed, have him study orbital mechanics and you'll have a mini-scientist.

My point is that like a kid who is three or four today can use Alexa devices just by talking to them (other brands are available) whereas kids born 100 years ago wouldn't have the faintest clue about it - the tech level of your tribe should probably have a bearing upon how easily they pick things up in advanced technological societies. In current system in order to get a child to learn orbital mechanics it takes a kid born and raised in a glitterworld to understand it the same length of time as one the same age who was born and raised in a neolithic tribe that you captured this morning.

I guess what I was saying was that whilst the kids being able to study before they could talk was clearly not intended, the fact that they could do it brought home to me that in an ideal world they should have some kind of advantage.


Nice to know the current settings are on the sweetspot! This kinda makes me want to avoid tinkering further with this... but I'll think about it. In the meantime, if you want to, you can always edit the ResearchSpeedFactor on the XML for the workstations. Reducing it for the Network Terminal will automatically make late game research harder.

I guess that's the thing though, for the style of game I was playing, whilst the research speed felt like the the sweet spot, the study speed didn't, because I was going for a more drawn out style game. However, what would have been right for the style of game I was playing would almost certainly not have been right for (say) a crashlanded and get off the planet as fast as possible scenario. It's the kind of thing you can hide in options behind a 'untick recommended settings' option, the same way in the base game you can toggle things like tame chance, friendly fire, instant kills, research speed, etc. whilst there are 5 base difficulties with preset settings.

It would allow those of us who have already played with your mod's recced settings to gain even more on subsequent playthroughs and tweak it to the style of game we want to play. Because of the speed of game I was playing, my pawns were able to study away in their down time (when it was -60 degrees out with a toxic fallout, whilst recovering from a mechanoid raid for example...) and they didn't end up all that specialised as a result apart from via their skills. Their intelligence went high enough that they were studying even absurdly high research value mod techs in one sitting.

Speaking of specialisation, this reminds me of something I meant to mention in my initial post. (My mind is like a sieve apparently.)

I don't think I once used the categorisations by tech level in the tech tab, but what I was crying out for time and time again was a categorisation by crafting/construction and a lesser extent cooking/growing techs. It would be a really nice option - particularly for those of us with large tech trees caused by having many mods - if any tech which granted a craftable recipe could be filed under a crafting categorisation and similarly with the other specialised roles. That way the player can assign their builders (say) to learn all the techs they'll need in order to fulfil their roles without having to pluck them out from amidst pointless techs that they'll never use. I'll confess there were times in my last game I just thought: "Screw it, just learn all of those techs to make sure I didn't miss one!"
Last edited by afterthought.btw; 6 Mar, 2021 @ 3:17pm
jptrrs  [developer] 10 Mar, 2021 @ 5:56pm 
Ah - I could have sworn that my servers didn't show any linkage to my desks. Good to know.
They don't. :-) Map positioning doesn't matter in this case, all terminals will benefit from all servers on the map, regardless of where they are. It's a cloud, after all ;-)

Hmm - I couldn't find any trader who would buy them whether caravan, trade ship, or settlements on the map.
Hmmm... Yeah, my bad. Selling drives is actually disabled, just like books.

Also, I don't put things out to rot on principle because (a) it spoils my immersion and (b) wealth degradation techniques like that feel like gaming the game rather than playing it.
Very eco-friendly! But that ♥♥♥♥ is as real as it gets, just google "technology landfill".

Indeed - they don't do any tasks with C&P. If I had to guess, I would imagine that in order to allow pawns who refuse to research to learn subjects so they aren't virtually useless, you've done something to allow them to study? If so, I'd presume that whatever you've done has also bypassed however C&P disables all skills for the 0-3 stage.
Most likely C&P disables only the vanilla work types.

I guess what I was saying was that whilst the kids being able to study before they could talk was clearly not intended, the fact that they could do it brought home to me that in an ideal world they should have some kind of advantage.
I see.

It would allow those of us who have already played with your mod's recced settings to gain even more on subsequent playthroughs and tweak it to the style of game we want to play.
I liked the idea of having some sort of hardcore mode with even harder research speeds. I'm also considering interfering with the acceleration for higher tech levels, maybe taking back some of the bonus they provide. Sadly, user-defined numbers aren't so easy to do with the settings style we're using....We'll see.

I don't think I once used the categorisations by tech level in the tech tab, but what I was crying out for time and time again was a categorisation by crafting/construction and a lesser extent cooking/growing techs. It would be a really nice option - particularly for those of us with large tech trees caused by having many mods - if any tech which granted a craftable recipe could be filed under a crafting categorisation and similarly with the other specialised roles. That way the player can assign their builders (say) to learn all the techs they'll need in order to fulfil their roles without having to pluck them out from amidst pointless techs that they'll never use.
Not a bad idea!

Last edited by jptrrs; 10 Mar, 2021 @ 5:58pm
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