Empyrion - Galactic Survival

Empyrion - Galactic Survival

Reforged Galaxy 1.11
Karghen 27 Jul, 2020 @ 9:46am
Engine Rework and Crop grow times
This is the follow up from my comment, I hope you will indulge in some constructive feedback.

First I want to say I absolutely love the overall feel and tempo of the Reforged Eden mod. The reworks to whole systems in the game, combined with the content has actually provided the game with a lot of life.

In my current playthrough, I picked the Purgatory start, wanting to get in a challenge, and really slow down my early game pacing, and Purgatory didn't disappoint. I had to rethink my entire strategy to early game survival, and figure out innovative approaches to getting stabilized on a planet with no ore nodes and barely anything safe to eat. Deco block toilet and I are now REALLY good friends, and I've developed an especially strong hatred of Mushrooms now.

Anyhow, I've made it off Purgatory and am busy establishing a new base on Epsilon III I believe, which with my increased Drone presence settings combined with the new AI in Reforged Galaxy is keeping things very interesting. Still no easy milk runs to get resources, and that's turning even simple mining trips into small adventures that need to be planned out and carefully executed to be profitable.

Overall this is the most fun and challenge I've had with Empyrion since I first bought the game years ago.

There are two points where I have some disagreement in the new rebalance of the Reforged Galaxy portion of the game mode however.

The first is crop grow times seem a little excessive. I think you could safely cut many of them in half, as I've played 4 to 6 hour game sessions and never managed to harvest certain crops (they just seem to be "growing" forever). Mushrooms are especially annoying, which when starting on the radioactive wasteland of Purgatory made that world even more wickedly nasty than it otherwise would be. Ultimately I gave up trying to farm Mushrooms there and just lived off the wild ones. And even on my new world I'm seeing crops with 60 to 130 minute grow times produce yields between 1 to 4 times in a long play session which I find to be a comfortable and reasonable pace, but several of the 180 to 290 minute crops just are not producing anything, or if I'm lucky I'll have 1 yield when I first log in for the day, and never pick another yield despite playing for several hours. I'm wondering if some of this tied to whether the playfield is "active", but I can't prove it yet.

The second area I have some disagreement on is your figures for engine strength. I understand you were trying to put a better progression line in place especially for T3 and T4 builds, along with making CVs feel weightier in general, but I'm finding that despite you saying that most T1 and T2 builds should be playable with no to little rework (and yes I understand you were referring to the CPU values), that almost all of them need a complete rework of engines (which is honestly what's killed almost all T1/T2 workshop BPs from being used in the Refored settings).

In general, I feel your engine values have swung the pendulum too far in the opposite direction from Eleon's generous default values. I think there is probably a happy medium in there and I'm trying to read about modding so that maybe I could tweak the values in my own game to find a better balance between your anemic thruster values and Eleon's grossly powerful ones.

Anyhow, I hope you find the feedback useful, and know that I have nothing but respect for the work the Reforged Galaxy and Reforged Eden folks have done. I think Eleon could take some serious pointers from these two mods when it comes to their basic game design. Kudos to everyone involved.

PS: If you happen to have some pointers or resources that could help me learn more about safely modding the blocks/devices/etc I would be all ears. I'm a SQL developer by trade, and I've looked through the some of the .ecf files and have tried to make some sense of them. I'm probably going to experiment with changing the grow times on Mushrooms this week to see if I'm making the right moves, but a mentor would be especially appreciated since I'm kinda coming into this cold at the moment and I would like to eventually rework all crops, and then maybe try my hand at thruster values.
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Showing 1-14 of 14 comments
Vermillion  [developer] 27 Jul, 2020 @ 5:16pm 
Well, I can reduce the grow times back to their original values. Right now they're double the vanilla grow times.
I will run a few tests on various CV ships today and get back to you on ship thrust. But in all likelihood, I will not make any major changes to CV thrusters. They're meant to be slow and heavy. Eleon seriously screwed up by making thrusters so insanely powerful that CVs move faster than SVs.
In today's update, SV thrusters will be getting a buff. But it looks like i'll have to push it back a few hours while I run more tests.
Karghen 28 Jul, 2020 @ 8:03pm 
I agree with your design philosophy on both subjects actually, I just think they may need a little tweaking back. Not all the way to default values, but maybe somewhere in the middle.

As for crops, I know the default grow values can have you flush with food and meds with a very small farm in no time. That's not really conducive to a tougher survival experience so an increase grow time probably makes sense from default values but perhaps not as severe as you've set some of them. I'm finding most crops in the 60 to 120 minute range are pacing just right that with 18 plots I can maintain a steady supply of food, but not build too much of a surplus too quickly. In fact to get ahead I usually have to supplement with gathering and hunting, which for a survival game makes sense. Now if I bothered to put down 36 plots I could probably start building a surplus reliably, but that involves a bit more resources upfront so that seems appropriate.

I'm actually building a spreadsheet capturing the grow times in my spare time this week of both the default Eleon settings, and your Reforged Settings. I like the fact that some crop products have multiple plants that provide different yields over different time tables, and I may try and work out a chart/formula that tries to draw a balance that makes that aspect of the game something you want to be mindful of in a 1 to 4 hour session that I imagine most players engage in.

With different crop choices it might even be interesting to put certain yield efficiencies at various breakpoints so different types of players will have compelling game play choices when planting their fields. If they hang around their base most of the time then perhaps faster growing crops are worth it if they can get multiple harvests per play session. If they don't log in often or for long periods perhaps slower growing higher yield crops are the better choice.

As for thrusters, I'm totally on board with the idea that CVs should feel weightier, and not like some super nimble fighter, but I'm finding that in general across the board on CVs, SVs, and even HVs (though to a lesser extent) that T1 and T2 designs are not translating to Reforged in usable states in most cases.

You were very upfront with T3 and T4 designs being unworkable both from a CPU limit and most probably a thruster limit, and given your rework of the higher tiers that is perfectly to be expected. But if your design goal was to have most T1s and T2s be easily transferable into Reforged I'm not sure your thruster values are allowing that very effectively. I know I've gone and specifically spent time in a SP Reforged game in creative mode to hash out new low tier designs to use in my actual game. Anyhow, if the design goal is to have T1 and T2 designs from Eleon be compatible in Reforged then I think you may need to boost thrusters just a tad, not back to Eleon levels, but somewhere in the middle.

As a side note, I've noticed some odd progression in the CPU to Thruster values in the SV thrusters as well. Specifically there is the Medium Jet Thruster with it's 800KN Force for 1323 CPU off on a dead end branch by it's lonesome, where as the Medium Jet Thruster MK2 has only 700KN Force for 1323 CPU. All other values are identical but the Mk2 is the one that the rest of the upgrade tree hangs on even though the "Mk1" is the superior thurster. I think perhaps a re-order of the tree may be needed, and perhaps an edit of the "Mk1" against the Mk2 so the Mk2 is actually an upgrade, and then put them in a proper hierarchy so you have a progression line?
Vermillion  [developer] 28 Jul, 2020 @ 10:38pm 
The MK2 jet thrusters have less thrust but a higher boost. Used singularly, they provide more thrust in short bursts. Though i'm considering removing them completely from the tech tree and making them available via upgrade/downgrade of the normal versions as eleon should've done.
Vermillion  [developer] 29 Jul, 2020 @ 6:48pm 
New update is out.
Crop growth times are halved.
SV thrusters got buffed.
MK2 jet thrusters now give a bonus to torque in exchange for having lower thrust.
Karghen 30 Jul, 2020 @ 8:50am 
Cool deal, I'll load them onto my server and test them out this weekend.
Karghen 30 Jul, 2020 @ 8:57am 
On a side note, is there a tool for Empyrion config files you are using to edit these so quickly? I've been browsing through them using Notepad++ but I'm wondering if there is a better way to edit these files.
Kyodai 1 Aug, 2020 @ 8:42pm 
@Karghen I love using VS Code for code editing and it's free.
estevaobk 13 Oct, 2020 @ 12:22pm 
@Vermillion,

I've started a new gameplay in the Cold Planet and it looks like at least in the wild (not on a Base or CV farm) crops are never re-growing, even after 1-2 in-game days and sleeping e.g. Is it still intentional? I will have to go to the Talon or Polaris and beg for food in exchange of whatever I could give them this way. Cheers.
Vermillion  [developer] 13 Oct, 2020 @ 2:53pm 
Most terrain crops take two to three RL hours to regrow. To encourage players to make a farm instead of just picking free food every 30 minutes.
estevaobk 16 Oct, 2020 @ 5:30pm 
Ok Talon/Polaris it is - sell some junk, do some missions and fill up my Fridge. I won't build a starting Base to serve as food for your Zirax drones on steroids, no thank you! =P
Tarsis 14 Dec, 2020 @ 8:46am 
I think the drive thrusters are quite weak for the size, materials, power, and CPU needed to use them effectively. Also, in this scenario, it appears the thrust vanes no longer work and the thrusters don't seem to be gimbaled at all.

I understand that this is supposed to be more difficult, and frankly, the vanilla game pales in comparison on difficulty and fun, but this feels a bit off.
Vermillion  [developer] 15 Dec, 2020 @ 5:10pm 
Thruster vanes were never gimbaled/mobile. All thrusters have static models.
Drive thrusters are more CPU and power efficient than an equivalent number of smaller thrusters. They aren't meant to be hundreds of times more powerful like they are in vanilla (which isn't CPU-efficient since in vanilla CPU is calculated from total thrust with no efficiency bonus)
Tarsis 15 Dec, 2020 @ 6:53pm 
I know they never *appeared* gimbaled or mobile vanes, but they used to provide some torque, as if they were, didn't they?
Vermillion  [developer] 16 Dec, 2020 @ 4:05am 
In vanilla? No.
In reforged the ones with the steering vanes (Mk2) provide torque at the cost of thrust, with a buff to boosting.
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