Space Engineers

Space Engineers

OKI Grande Weapons Pack - Modernized
Seff  [developer] 27 Jan, 2022 @ 2:33pm
Balance and Updates
Moving/continuing a discussion from comments, since I think it's worth exploring more in long-form here, and having to break posts up into multiple comments doesn't help.

So, first, what kind of ships do I make/use personally? Everyone has their own idea of how big a cruiser is, or what roles should a cruiser have. I'd like to point you at my workshop and let you just see my ships in person, but a lot of them still need fettling and polish - they're done enough that I use them in survival or for combat testing this mod, but not done enough that I want to put them on the workshop.

Archer Interceptor (small grid)
~325 blocks, ~31k kg
2 14.5mm guns, 1 designator, 2 merge blocks (slap whatever on there)
2 guided missiles

Arbalist-Class Corvette
~350 blocks, ~300k kg
2 230mm cannons, 2 14.5mm turrets, 1 203mm turret, 2 designators
4 guided missiles/reloadable tubes

Yeoman-Class Frigate
~750 blocks, ~860k kg
2 230mm cannons, 1 230mm turret, 2 122mm turrets, 2 203mm turrets, 4 5.56mm turrets, 4 designators
4 guided missiles/reloadable rack

Halbardier-Class Frigate
~850 blocks, ~1m kg
1 180mm railgun, 2 230mm turrets, 2 122mm turrets, 1 203mm turret, 2 14.5mm turrets, 4 designators

Squire-Class Destroyer
~2500 blocks, ~3m kg
1 180mm railgun, 3 230mm turrets, 4 122mm turrets, 2 14.5mm turrets, 2 203mm turrets, 4 designators
8 guided missiles/reloadable tubes

Lancer-Class Cruiser
~3900 blocks, ~5.9m kg
2 180mm railguns, 3 60mm railgun turrets, 4 230mm casemate, 4 122mm turrets, 3 14.5mm turrets, 4 203mm turrets, 6 designators
12 guided missiles/reloadable tubes

Knight Errant-Class Battlecruiser
~6000 blocks, ~8.8m kg
3 180mm railguns, 2 60mm railgun turrets, 9 230mm casemates, 4 122mm turrets, 4 14.5mm turrets, 3 203mm heavy turrets, 6 designators
16 guided missiles/reloadable tubes

My ships are largely built out of light armor, with heavy armor used only to protect important locations (engineering, internal citadels around railguns, CIC, etc). When I use heavy armor, I try to mostly use heavy armor full cubes - their innate/hidden 50% damage reduction and 40% deformation resistance means that for only a small penalty over other shapes, you can gain a 50-90% damage reduction against non-penetrator damage (gatlings, 50mm, 14.5mm, rockets, half of 122 damage, etc). Other heavy armor shapes lack this innate damage reduction and have wildly varying deformation resistance that overall contributes to much poorer defense per component and defense per kg.

Because building things out of nothing but cubes looks awful, my designs are often double-hulled, with exterior light armor shaping hiding heavy armor protection - which helps defeat certain weapons, by either spacing explosions away from internal components or using up the useful penetration distance on railgun weapons. In areas I expect to get hit or really don't want to get hit, I may make the heavy armor several layers deep. For example, on my heaviest ship, the forward citadel protecting the main battery of railguns is 3 layers of heavy armor deep, supported by welders. The reactor housings on the same ship are 2 layers thick.

All ships are intended to be used in survival, with sufficient tankage and cargo space to support themselves, and an eye towards keeping costs low and building complexity (subgrids) manageable. Retro and left/right/up/down thrust are often equal, with forward thrust being 3-4x the maneuver thrust. All ships have complete RP interiors with beds, mess halls, etc. Larger ships tend towards more independence, with more small craft support (hangar bays, landing pads, etc). Corvettes lack FTL. Smaller ships are pure hydrogen, larger ships become h2/ion hybrid, with the largest ship being pure ion. I build with a lot of DLC and very few mods (currently, only AQD small grid expansion and this weapon mod). Most ships are not planet-capable. Ships with multiple railguns use Whiplash's salvo script so that I can adjust my fire after seeing how much lead I need on the first shot.

The friends I play with tend to build with similar sizes; one friend goes way heavier on the guns per kg and way more forward thrust, and he's always challenging to fight, but his ships lack some finesse in their defensive design/protection scheme. Marcelo's Ares-Class Battleship is king of the hill in terms of raw firepower, with 6 railguns and 6 triple 230's as its main armament. Whiplash is the king of missiles, but generally sticks to vanilla guns.

What do my fights look like?

I usually play with a speed mod, 250 for large grid and 350 for small grid. For PVE vs RivalAI, often a lot of kiting, trying to exploit any range advantage I can to avoid taking damage while sniping guns off the enemy grid, or just salvoing PMWs using Whiplash's LAMP/WHAM.

PVP has big question marks around player made missiles. Their raw destructive power means that no matter the design, most ships can't take many hits from them. If you're fooling around in creative, creative weld speeds + infinite components can make things very silly, very fast. So for testing purposes, we may make rules like "no missiles," or "only what you have in your tubes," or "one reload," or we may test in survival and require that players load their cargo with the components they plan to use for missile reloads. While you have missiles, combat is a cat-and-mouse game, sneaking around like cold war submarines, trying to locate and fire on the enemy before they locate and fire on you. Designators can help you find your opponent, can alert you to incoming missiles, but also let everyone know where you are with bright, red beams.

Once missiles are launched at you, firing your own missiles defensively, under turret/designator guidance, is important, as well as maneuvering to reduce relative velocity/give yourself more engagement time. With the option to use your PMWs defensively and 203mm rockets to intercept with, weight of fire/number of missiles is more important than having fewer, bigger missiles. Jumping out can save you, but we may play under rules like "no jumping" to avoid that sort cheese. Jumping out is often an option in real PVP, but you're not testing your weapons if all you do is avoid fights and only raid people who are offline.

Whenever missile shenanigans are done and both ships commit to engaging with guns, you have the merge into a circle-strafe. The exact physics of the merge can vary based on who has the accel advantage, who has the firepower advantage, who has the range advantage, etc. You may end up in a retrograde chase, where a ship with a maneuver/range advantage just kites the slower/shorter ranged ship. I think the classic engagement is both ships circling each other, watching incoming shells, and altering trajectory by moving up/down relative to the plane of the circle-strafe to try and generate misses from enemy guns. As both ships suffer damage, the range may close.
Last edited by Seff; 4 Feb, 2022 @ 8:58am
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Showing 1-5 of 5 comments
Seff  [developer] 27 Jan, 2022 @ 3:32pm 
Now, against this background I would like to reply to a couple situations posed by @Star_Kindler in the comments.

Originally posted by Star_Kindler:
the problem is that me and my friend group pretty much exclusively use light armour, as heavy armour makes it almost impossible to give ships any decent speed. It also seems like overkill unless you're building a massive ship, as heavy armour is equal in health pool to 7 layers of light armour, which you'd never have unless you were building something over 10,000 blocks at least. We do sometimes put sections of heavy armour on our ships, for example around bridges or reactor rooms, but a completely heavy armour ship of a decent size seems very impractical, so I'm not sure if balancing this for heavy armour is a good idea.

I agree that pure heavy armor ships are impractical and slow, and I don't build or balance for that. But I still feel like you're really missing out on the advantages of heavy armor, and your perception may be skewed by a local meta that doesn't respect heavy armor enough. By raw numbers, yes, it's 2500 HP for a light armor cube vs 16,500 HP for a large armor cube, 500 kg vs 3300 kg. 6.6 times the HP, and 6.6 times the mass, right? Light armor and heavy armor are equal? Yes, but actually no. The large heavy armor cube has 50% damage reduction for most damage types (bullets, explosive), and an additional 40% reduction (0.4 deform ratio) for explosives that is additive (not multiplicative, for 90% damage reduction total). So while a large grid heavy armor cube may be 6.6 times the mass of light cube, it may have effective HP of up to sixty six light cubes (vs pure explosive damage).

Originally posted by Star_Kindler:
I don't like how you changed the siege turret into a penetrator rather than a splash damage dealer, it seems to me like it kind of removes it's purpose if it has bad accuracy and only penetrates rather than doing splash damage.

Now, knowing what heavy armor does to explosive damage, I hope you can better understand the 230mm's purpose. Penetrator damage is not reduced by deformation ratio or by the large grid heavy armor cube's hidden 50% damage reduction (both of which I applied to all the weapons and turrets in this pack, btw). It deals pure, raw HP damage. It will destroy a heavy armor cube in 2 shots. It takes 6 shots from a 122 to do that, or 330 vanilla rockets. That means the triple 230 will break a heavy armor cube every 6.66 seconds and the 122 will break one every 24 seconds. But when it comes to dealing with light armor, things can shift in favor of the 122 - because that is the 122's niche.

Originally posted by Star_Kindler:
It doesn't make sense that a ship with smaller guns should beat a ship with larger guns in most circumstances. As I understood it, the Siege Turret was supposed to be long-range artillery fire with horrible accuracy but extreme damage if it hit, making it excellent against large ships but horrible against small and maneuverable ships. This is the kind of balance I would like to see in the game, as it would make ship classes actually matter. For example a battleship with siege turrets wouldn't do any good against a group of quick and maneuverable destroyers that were armed with 122mm, but a cruiser armed with 122mm wouldn't stand a chance against the 230mm siege turret battleship.

In general I agree, but there are some caveats.

I can't accomplish this with this mod alone. You need to start pairing it with mods like relative top speed, or your destroyers may not have much of any practical maneuver advantage over the battleship, and no top speed advantage. If your battleship can hit 100 m/s in six seconds, the destroyers lose every fight because they never make it to 122mm range. If the battleship has designators and sees the destroyers coming from 5 km out, then it has even more time than that to begin to maneuver against them.

I've given the siege turret 'bad' accuracy, but you can look in the comments and see other people already complaining that the accuracy is too poor. The fact is that bad accuracy on guns just feels bad, and if it feels bad people don't want to play with it. There's a practical limit to how bad you can make the accuracy as a balancing measure.

Going back to your proposed scenarios, if the destroyers actually want to kill the battleship, they should be armed with railguns and not try to enter 230mm range, much less 122mm range. Battleships SHOULD have heavy armor. 122 sucks against heavy armor. The 75mm railgun breaks 2.5 heavy armor cubes with every shot.

And a 122mm armed cruiser should lose to a 230mm battleship - if the battleship has heavy armor. If it isn't using heavy armor, is it really a battleship?

Originally posted by Star_Kindler:
I guess my point is, in my opinion, if a battleship with 122mms and a battleship with 230mms faced off the 230mm battleship should slaughter the one armed with only 122mms.

Same as the above - I agree, the 230mm should slaughter it. I believe it would. But I also believe the 230mm battleship will win by shrugging off a lot of the damage from the 122mm battleship, because its important systems are protected by heavy armor - if it even deigns to let the 122mm battleship close to its firing range.
Seff  [developer] 28 Jan, 2022 @ 6:21pm 
While we're on the topic of discussing balance, these are some thoughts I've been mulling over for when the Warfare 2 update comes out.

1. Assuming the lock-on range is moddable, I would extend it out to 4-5 km. The ranges for the weapons in this pack would remain the same, but I would reduce their AI ranges to 1200 meters. This should make the mod compatible with the new functionality we are getting, but is dependent on whether or not certain things are moddable. It would also depend on if RivalAI could take advantage of or emulate the lock-on range. It would be really awful if NPCs ended up limited to 1200m while you're out there wailing on them from twice that.

2. Some accuracy increases, mostly for fixed guns and casemates. This should help accentuate the difference in accuracy between fixed guns and turrets, but will also reward people for engineering their own rotor turrets (which will be naturally more vulnerable and more difficult to build in survival, so should have more benefits to compensate for those).

3. Not necessarily balance: Maybe repurpose some of the audio and particle effects from the new weapons to augment the OKI weapons, such as using the muzzle flash of the teased railgun for the OKI railguns, or see if there's a good autocannon sound to use on the 50mm (I really don't like the 50mm sound, I dunno about you guys).

A side project/optional add-on mod would be buffing the vanilla weapons to be more on par with this OKI mod, at least in terms of range. Possibly convert the railgun (from what is probably a reskinned rocket launcher) to use Whip's railgun framework. Maybe damage adjustments. Is there any interest in that?

Obviously it's difficult to form any good opinions on this stuff until we have the update/DLC in our hands, but I'm interested in hearing your feedback on these, as well as general input on balance.
Seff  [developer] 4 Feb, 2022 @ 7:15am 
I spent some time this morning testing the mod out and I think everything is working on the new patch, aside from some icons getting messed up (now fixed). As I mentioned in comments, I'm going to wait on making any changes to AI range or taking advantage of the lock-on setting until Meridius can implement some changes that won't leave NPCs completely gimped by the range advantage players would have.

But what about other changes? In the short term/next patch, I'm thinking about the following:

Accuracy increases for fixed weapons, and there look like some new definitions in weapon profiles that will allow me to make turrets more accurate when player controlled. I will likely do that (assuming that works how I think it works). This should result in better feel when firing fixed guns and manually controlling turrets, but also reward multi-crew ships with players controlling turrets.

I will certainly adopt some of the new VFX/sounds from the vanilla guns to shore up some of the weaker areas of OKI. To maintain the overall feel of the pack, I don't want to replace too much/everything. Improve where I can, like the railguns didn't have muzzle flash to begin with so using the new vanilla effects to jazz it up is good. But OKI railguns should sound like OKI railguns, so I'm not likely to replace their sound effects with the vanilla ones - no matter how cool the vanilla one is. This is a murky line, where I don't expect everyone to agree with what I do.

The 60mm railgun turret needs to come out. I wasn't 100% settled on the balance of it, but that is okay now - the overall balance of the pack needs to be looked at, so some close-enough numbers for it are okay for right now.

Keen fixed turret rotation speeds, I don't think turrets are snapping to target like they used to, which means that turret rotation speed is a viable balance parameter again. In the next patch, I will go over turret rotation speeds and make some gross adjustments to get things in the right ballpark - fine tuning will come later.

Digi's build info was updated to support Whip's Framework, and this gave me a much better understanding of how these weapons interact with shields. I will definitely be increasing the multiplier on the 180mm railgun by a lot. Other tweaks may be made.

Medium term, we're talking balance patch and squaring this with vanilla. There's three areas I want to look at.

First is durability. The vanilla turrets actually work out to being about as durable as their OKI counterparts once the OKI turret's 50% damage reduction is taken into account. In general, I am thinking I will increase the durability of turrets slightly through giving them larger steel plate buffers, while also playing with the damage reduction they receive. Keen commented out the 50% damage reduction on heavy armor cubes - maybe it'll return, probably it won't, I dunno. But with the new targeting options for turrets, weapons are almost like your new armor, in a lot of ways.

Second is damage. The overall damage for the vanilla weapons is close to the weapons in this pack. I think they will be able to mostly co-exist, though the shorter ranges of the vanilla weapons will hurt them. There are some decisions they made that I am not sure that I agree with - artillery cannons deal 17000 damage, just enough to always break a heavy armor block. This is important for defeating self-repair systems, but that's a niche that I believe railguns should occupy. Once reload speeds are taken into account, 230mm is fairly close in damage per minute to artillery. I could buff 230mm up a bit, but I'm not sure I want to push it over that 16500 mark. If I do push it up that high, then rate of fire will need to be nerfed. 50mm could use a little bit of a damage boost, but not much. The 14.5mm fixed gun may need a slight RoF buff (400 to 480, maybe as high as 600).

Ammo cost. Previously, the only real metric we had for damage was gatling ammo. Not only did gatling damage go down in his patch (150 to 90, with an accuracy boost), but we also have several other ammo types to compare price per damage with. This will require a complete overhaul of ammo prices in the mod.
anzellott 29 Jan, 2023 @ 9:22am 
Honestly the 50mm Seems grossly underpowered
andersenman 19 Apr, 2023 @ 3:18am 
At least for the small-caliber, non-explosive ammo, OKIM is listed in my weapons comparison spreadsheet that may or may not provide insight into balancing with other weapon mods, if you're interested in a resources-to-boom metric:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VbH3uvKv5FOWZU-pJn6sr9b6buMyIjHYRteksbSbKk4/edit#gid=516546476
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