*60* damage per shot on the Thalmann in 3-round, highly accurate bursts?! Is this intentionally so comically overpowered in Vanilla, or did some CE stats end up accidentally crossed over/typoed?

For comparison's sakes, the most powerful per-shot vanilla gun is a charge lance, with 30 damage per single shot, 4 seconds between shots, and range 30, 45% armor penetration (15 blunt damage if mitigated, 0 if deflected - an average flakvest will deflect a quarter of these shots, and half the time, will halve the damage while converting it to 15 blunt).

Killing a pawn with a charge lance, ignoring armor, takes two shots to the body, or one to the skull or brain. It will also one-shot most organs without armor, but a pawn may survive several hits if armored at all.

The Thalmann drops *60* per shot in its current state, at 80% armor penetration, range 24, in bursts of 3 every 2.5 seconds. A flak vest will save a pawn from only one in 10 shots, and 1 in 5 will still leave them near death with 30 crush damage to the torso or organs. Unarmored, any hit at all to the torso or head will almost assuredly instakill a pawn, but strangely, its stopping power is only 0.5, meaning that unlike the charge lance, with a stopping power of 1.5, anything heavier than a husky or golden retriever won't even be stunned by hits.

If you're trying to simulate a large-caliber bolt gun of some kind, up the stopping power, significantly, and drop damage - Your Grabenflinte, an automatic combat shotgun, has stopping power 3.0, only damage 35, 0.9 seconds between shots, and a range of 14 - It's completely pointless to even build a Grabenflinte, outside of giving it to melee combatants so they get a quick softening-volley in on anything approaching them. Meanwhile, a Thalmann generally kills humanlikes in the first volley at almost double the range.

I played a while with the new Status myself and yeah, you are right: This is much too powerful.

The Thalmann use a extrem high caliber ammunition for ce with extreme high damage. I tried to convert these stats into vanilla, but I forget the fact, that the vanilla game doesnt know ammunition. So, the high weighted ammo for the Thalmann in ce doesnt exist as a balancing factor, but the gun is still extremly powerful.

Too powerful. I will fix that later.

Originally posted by 4ydra:

I played a while with the new Status myself and yeah, you are right: This is mich too powerful.

The Thalmann use a extrem high caliber ammunition for ce with extreme high damage. I tried to convwrt these Stats into vanilla, but I forget the fact, that the vanilla game doesnt know ammunition. So, the high weighted ammo for the Thalmann in ce doesnt exist as a balancing factor, but the hin is still extremly powerful.

Too powerful. I will fix that later.

Yup, definitely. The StG and the bigger Thalmann are definitely outliers on the field of the mod with reasonable "grimdark lethality" balance on most of the rest. That pirates also end up carrying these things is a bit of an equalizer, if downright nasty (Having an entire squad of defenders wiped out by a single lucky pirate with a Thalmann is salty moments, tho)

I'd say the chainsword/chainaxe could also use a *slight* damage nerf, but then, raw DPS is scaled well for them only having the single attack - An unskilled pawn is likely to *miss* altogether, and the very long windup time on them is a great balance for that; Any miss in melee gets punished by the amount of time it gives the enemy to land hits back. And it's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ chainsword; Slow windup, limb-stripping horror when it hits.

I'd say for the vanilla stats on your "bolter" type guns, drop the raw damage down to 18-20, and boost the stopping power to at least 2, perhaps even 3(!); Whether or not it actually maims a pawn, at 20 damage, it's going to destroy organs outright on a piercing hit, it's going to wallop a nasty stun just getting hit by it.

Now, that said... the art flavor on your stuff is *great!* - Good spriting, good writing, and I've got a colony going on the side that has a techno-raider Ideology thing with Maos for skirmishing play. Evil gun for that use; Ranged mass-fire suppression!

Originally posted by Brigador Genetta:

Originally posted by 4ydra:

I played a while with the new Status myself and yeah, you are right: This is mich too powerful.

The Thalmann use a extrem high caliber ammunition for ce with extreme high damage. I tried to convwrt these Stats into vanilla, but I forget the fact, that the vanilla game doesnt know ammunition. So, the high weighted ammo for the Thalmann in ce doesnt exist as a balancing factor, but the hin is still extremly powerful.

Too powerful. I will fix that later.

Yup, definitely. The StG and the bigger Thalmann are definitely outliers on the field of the mod with reasonable "grimdark lethality" balance on most of the rest. That pirates also end up carrying these things is a bit of an equalizer, if downright nasty (Having an entire squad of defenders wiped out by a single lucky pirate with a Thalmann is salty moments, tho)

I'd say the chainsword/chainaxe could also use a *slight* damage nerf, but then, raw DPS is scaled well for them only having the single attack - An unskilled pawn is likely to *miss* altogether, and the very long windup time on them is a great balance for that; Any miss in melee gets punished by the amount of time it gives the enemy to land hits back. And it's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ chainsword; Slow windup, limb-stripping horror when it hits.

I'd say for the vanilla stats on your "bolter" type guns, drop the raw damage down to 18-20, and boost the stopping power to at least 2, perhaps even 3(!); Whether or not it actually maims a pawn, at 20 damage, it's going to destroy organs outright on a piercing hit, it's going to wallop a nasty stun just getting hit by it.

Now, that said... the art flavor on your stuff is *great!* - Good spriting, good writing, and I've got a colony going on the side that has a techno-raider Ideology thing with Maos for skirmishing play. Evil gun for that use; Ranged mass-fire suppression!

Thank you very much! I like your ideas, but some of the weapons should be a little bit OP. The Thalmann works pretty well for CE, for vanilla i need a little bit more balancing tuning. The Thalmann is the king size weapon of this mod and should be a nightmare for mechanoids and (royal) power marines.

Does the stopping power determine how much damage is done to the organs? This is one of the values that still puzzles me. I decreased the Thalmann damage to 35 now, extremly high, but no longer godlike, I think.

Especially with chainsaw weapons, I'd love to know how to increase organ damage in the vanilla game without drastically increasing the damage itself.

Originally posted by 4ydra:

Originally posted by Brigador Genetta:

Yup, definitely. The StG and the bigger Thalmann are definitely outliers on the field of the mod with reasonable "grimdark lethality" balance on most of the rest. That pirates also end up carrying these things is a bit of an equalizer, if downright nasty (Having an entire squad of defenders wiped out by a single lucky pirate with a Thalmann is salty moments, tho)

I'd say the chainsword/chainaxe could also use a *slight* damage nerf, but then, raw DPS is scaled well for them only having the single attack - An unskilled pawn is likely to *miss* altogether, and the very long windup time on them is a great balance for that; Any miss in melee gets punished by the amount of time it gives the enemy to land hits back. And it's a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ chainsword; Slow windup, limb-stripping horror when it hits.

I'd say for the vanilla stats on your "bolter" type guns, drop the raw damage down to 18-20, and boost the stopping power to at least 2, perhaps even 3(!); Whether or not it actually maims a pawn, at 20 damage, it's going to destroy organs outright on a piercing hit, it's going to wallop a nasty stun just getting hit by it.

Now, that said... the art flavor on your stuff is *great!* - Good spriting, good writing, and I've got a colony going on the side that has a techno-raider Ideology thing with Maos for skirmishing play. Evil gun for that use; Ranged mass-fire suppression!

Thank you very much! I like your ideas, but some of the weapons should be a little bit OP. The Thalmann works pretty well for CE, for vanilla i need a little bit more balancing tuning. The Thalmann is the king size weapon of this mod and should be a nightmare for mechanoids and (royal) power marines.

Does the stopping power determine how much damage is done to the organs? This is one of the values that still puzzles me. I decreased the Thalmann damage to 35 now, extremly high, but no longer godlike, I think.

Especially with chainsaw weapons, I'd love to know how to increase organ damage in the vanilla game without drastically increasing the damage itself.

Stopping power is solely "stun" (That momentary jolting stop to a charging pawn/animal when hit), and it's independent of melee stun (which IIRC is a function of blunt hits to the head or neck). To make a melee weapon deliver sharp damage, adjust its armor penetration - Low penetration means armor tends to convert damage into blunt more often.

Damage on the other hand, is raw damage potential; The weapon is capable of doing up to that damage, on a clean hit that manages to penetrate armor, and armor penetration operates as follows to my knowledge:

First, armor penetration is directly subtracted from the target's armor. Then, layer by layer, starting with outermost, the remaining armor figure is compared to a random roll between 1 and 100. If the roll is over remaining armor, all damage passes through *and* keeps its type (if sharp). If the roll is under remaining armor value but over half the value (Say, a roll of 15 versus post-adjustment armor 20), the damage is *halved* and remaining damage is now blunt trauma instead of piercing or cutting. This is repeated until all armor is accounted for.

This means a Thalmann shot at 35 will leave an unarmored pawn *almost* dead unless it hits a vital organ (heart will be fatal, liver also, other torso organs like lungs and kidneys will be cleanly blown apart and the pawn will be severely wounded to the torso, bleeding to death quickly), but in the case of an ordinary flak vest (and no other armor), the pawn will survive about 1 in 10 shots completely unhurt and 1 in 5 with a significant crush wound. Layered armor will probably help them survive, but they're almost guaranteed to take at least some blunt damage from a volley. A devilstrand duster over a flak vest will probably stop piercing hits at 80% armor penetration, but is unlikely to prevent all damage, and mechanoids are in serious trouble if hit by 80% penetration; Most of their toughness is in their innate armor, not their raw health.

Higher stopping power's main effect is in keeping melee attackers from quickly closing the distance, even if they're armored; The stopping power figure is directly compared to the target's Body Size stat. If there's more stopping power than size, *ANY* hit at all will stagger them, whether or not it damages. Bigger, heavier projectiles should naturally have higher stopping power, but for game balance, a lot of the vanilla projectile-spam type guns tone it down a little bit to ensure there's at least some utility to having some pawns armed with slower-firing guns.

The new Thalmann at 35 balances out fairly nicely as a high end endgame gun - Lots of tech and material required to make it, lots of work to make it, and it's *heavy* in terms of weight to carry on a caravan.

Hello! First your mod is amazing. The weapon variety and design is unique and cool.
Now ^ Kind of same problem as Brigador Genetta. The Thalman is a monster. Even in CE
The weimar seems like a neolitic weapon in comparison; they're only 1 research appart.
It also outclasses A lot of spacer weaponry and make other SMG in the mod pointless. The reload time is very low and aiming time way to high (im using Weimar as reference)

Maybe making them heavier(Including the already heavy ammo) higher aiming time (recoil control) and making the weimar a little better? (Maybe high aiming speed with high reload time?)

@Kaisec

Hey Kaisec! Thank you!

Yeah, the balancing for CE is an well known problem for this mod. The weapons should be a counter part to the high tech weapons of the royal troops, but if I make them too heavy, you will have a lot of troubles with the ammunition.

I've tried to make them more expensive. You will need high amounts of steel and time to build the weapons.

If I have more time, I check the Weimar and I think about a solution. The Thalmann is my baby. Seriously. First, I made it very inaccurate, but in combination with the weight and the heavy ammo, the gun was pretty useless. I want an awesome weapon between the real kalashnokov and a bolter, so I made the Thalmann more expensive, but more accurate. It's an elite weapon and I think I will not rebalance it. Maybe I make it more expensive, but I will not change the values.

Originally posted by 4ydra:

@Kaisec

Hey Kaisec! Thank you!

Yeah, the balancing for CE is an well known problem for this mod. The weapons should be a counter part to the high tech weapons of the royal troops, but if I make them too heavy, you will have a lot of troubles with the ammunition.

I've tried to make them more expensive. You will need high amounts of steel and time to build the weapons.

If I have more time, I check the Weimar and I think about a solution. The Thalmann is my baby. Seriously. First, I made it very inaccurate, but in combination with the weight and the heavy ammo, the gun was pretty useless. I want an awesome weapon between the real kalashnokov and a bolter, so I made the Thalmann more expensive, but more accurate. It's an elite weapon and I think I will not rebalance it. Maybe I make it more expensive, but I will not change the values.

Fair enough, to be honest the bolters are just Way to cool so i get it. Weimar would be could as a side-weapon for emergencies.

@4ydra Question, have you loaded these up without CE and used something like the Weapons tab to compare their DPS and DPSA with other weapons in the game? Because (at least to me) that seems like a good way of seeing how powerful they are, and, uh, they wind up being *ludicrously* powerful. The highest weapon tech I have is gas operation, and my modlist is pretty long, so I have a lot of other weapon mods to compare this to... and when looking at DPSA, of the top 46 guns for DPSA, only a single one comes from any other mod. The vanilla chain shotgun shows up as about 13.1 DPSA. The Stable Rifle from RimForge, which is a fairly powerful gun against anything that isn't armored to hell and back, shows up at 20.7. The guns from your mods top out at 68.5. Hell, the special ops version of the PPSh-82 does 43 DPSA... in other words, more than three times the damage of the chain shotgun, only with ranges that can compete with bolt action rifles and snipers *and* better armor penetration. Put simply, there is zero reason to use any other sort of weapon, once you have the resources to make anything from this mod, and you can get *those* via a decent-sized Yayo farm and a steady flow of trade caravans. Honestly... as much as I love the aesthetics, the concept, and the sound effects, I don't think I can use this mod as-is right now. It simply makes almost every other weapon in the game obsolete, to the point where the only things that can really go toe-to-toe with it are late-game persona weapons, and even then, I think the Arsenal guns have an edge against the majority of persona weapons, too. This matches with my in-game experience, too, a few soldiers with PPSh-82s and high shooting skills can basically make any threat in the game evaporate as soon as they lay eyes on it.

One possible fix I see that would let the weapons stay fairly powerful: if some weapons really are supposed to be for power-armored supersoldiers, give them a longer aiming time (which should be compensated in-game by the augments said supersoldier will have speeding up their aiming) and have the heavy-caliber guns use whatever system the Vanilla Expanded Heavy Weapons use to make their weapons require power armor to use. That coupled with some minor nerfs on the guns that *aren't* supposed to be carried by super-soldiers should go a fair way towards balancing the mod, from what I can see, though I'll also experiment with value-tweaking via RIMMSqol and see what kind of changes need to happen to bring things more in-line with the other weapons in the game and in mods.

It's obvious everything is OP in this mod... could you maybe dial them down a bit? Or even better, could you add some settings so we can adjust them to fit our liking? Thanks!