RimWorld

RimWorld

Metal Doesn't Burn
Zaeryn Carine 14 Sep, 2021 @ 9:13pm
Why Metal Burns and Armor doesn't cover Hands/Feet
@Thundercraft
People are free to use whatever mods they want; however, mods like this and those that make armor cover the hands/feet usually do so because the creator/s and users don't understand the game balance in the first place so don't even realize the mod is disrupting the balance. Especially in cases of armor mods, most creators think Tynan made a mistake and they are "fixing" it.


Steel walls are flammable because you usually start with/have easy access to steel, which would usually start you with a fire-proof base vs having to first make a Stonecutter's Table, cut stones and then put up stone walls.

Conduits are flammable so that if you leave large portions of your colony's conduits unprotected(I.E. walls, turrets, fire-foam poppers) and lazily strew them all around the place then raiders can do significant damage just by starting a fire or few. You have to plan out your conduits to not only ensure redundancy in case of attack but to ensure the conduits are also easy to protect/put out if they are attacked/set on fire.

The alternative would be raiders breaking conduits one-by-one, which would take significantly longer than starting a single fire and charging your pawns. The time it takes different raiders to break whatever conduits get targeted by their AI would make them spread out more and become an easier force to defeat. By breaking individual conduits it is possible for raiders to only destroy one conduit as they path to your pawns leading to, "Oh, no! They broke a single conduit in my redundant system. How terrbilulz."

If raiders are set to attack a minimum amount of conduits then players could string conduits across their kill zone to distract the enemy and you would only have to replace the ones they managed to destroy before you shot them down. With flammable conduits some raiders/a raider will light a fire or few and move on, minimizing the time they spend not charging your pawns and potentially burning down the entire conduit chain to cost you more resources than in the inflammable scenario.


Armor does not cover the hands/feet because Bionic limbs do not have any, which gives them less total hp than natural limbs but also means you don't have to constantly build replacement hands/feet/fingers/toes.

Bionic Arms/Legs have 30-hp from a 30-hp shoulder/leg; however, bionic limbs can only be destroyed/permanently impaired with a total of 30 damage.

Natural Arms have 120-hp from a 30-hp shoulder and arm, 20-hp hand and five 8-hp fingers. There is also a 20-hp radius and a 25-hp humerus that don't count toward total hp.

Natural Legs have 95-hp from a 30-hp leg, 25-hp foot and five 8-hp toes. There is also a 25-hp femur and tibia that don't count toward total hp.

Fingers/toes can be destroyed by most attacks in RW, resulting in permanent performance reductions.

Hands can be destroyed to render the entire limb useless with 2 Assault Rifle shots(22 dmg) or 1 Sniper shot(25 dmg), which can also destroy the feet and any of the bones in the arms/legs to make them useless.

Natural limbs can bleed that can cause death or at least reduce consciousness, which results in performance reductions.

Natural limbs can feel pain that can reduce consciousness and mood, which results in more mental breaks.

Natural limbs can scar, which permanently reduces part hp and efficiency and can cause pain.

Bionic Arms are just shoulders but armor still covers the arms because they are about 9.6x more likely to be shot than hands and 17x more likely to be shot than fingers.

It appears that Tynan's intention was for early game loses to be fingers/toes and some hands/feet, which are easier to replace than full limbs; however, flak and even hyperweave dusters don't protect the arms very well so they can still be lost, putting a greater resource drain on your colony. Once you have some bionic limbs installed and can start making organs you may want to sacrifice the better torso protection of full flak/flak with duster for the superior limb and head protection of Recon/Marine until you eventually get Cataphract.


I was never arguing that mods like this and any that make conduits inflammable should be forever alone. Because many players make comments like, "Why is this like this? It makes no sense." I hope to inform them of why, balance-wise, some weird game choices exist so they might go, "Oh. That makes sense. Maybe I don't need this mod."
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Showing 1-15 of 29 comments
cinless 18 Nov, 2021 @ 6:53am 
Steel being flammable was sensible years ago when there wasn't much to use it on, but with the DLC and especially if you use a lot of mods, steel has become a lot more precious, so making it a more attractive building material is no longer a significant hit to the balance.

I understand the choice from a balance position, my only criticism of the original decision is that it was inelegant. Flammable steel is counter-intuitive.
Same is true for the implementation of armour. It facilitates more narratively interesting injuries, but if you sit down and look at it it's just weird.

Ultimately this is intended to be a narrative game. There's a lot of smart balancing decisions to facilitate the creation of interesting stories, but for some people weird little things like this takes them out of it.
If something intended to make the game more narratively interesting to you has the opposite effect, then you should absolutely change it.
Lasagna 27 Dec, 2021 @ 4:14pm 
I'd rather bump the difficulty up (either the ingame settings or adding mods that add more dangerous raiders, ect...) than need to depend on unrealistic and more importantly counter intuitive things like the total lack of hand/feet protection in vanilla or steel combusting.
Zaeryn Carine 28 Dec, 2021 @ 9:54pm 
Increasing the difficulty won't change how likely a natural arm is to be destroyed in comparison to a bionic one... It isn't counter-intuitive at all when it is intentionally done for the balance reasons I listed above...
cinless 29 Dec, 2021 @ 5:57am 
If something isn't how the player expects it to be, it's unintuitive. If it runs counter to player expectations, such as steel burning or all armour being barefoot, it's by definition counter-intuitive, no matter the intent behind it.
Last edited by cinless; 29 Dec, 2021 @ 5:57am
the sun 9 Jan, 2022 @ 6:23pm 
Dude you can legit just make stone buildings just as easily in the same amount of time as steel if you just place down a stonecutting bench right away, i dont want to never be able to use steel as a building material because it burns. Also insulting everyone that uses this mod in your explanation on why the mod is bad isnt very good.
Mcgrolox 13 Jan, 2022 @ 12:26am 
Ironically the person for whom you made the discussion never joined it - I respect and appreciate your moving it to something like this as opposed to having many pages of comments for the argument as well.

If Tynan didn't want people to tailor his story maker to their personal tastes, he would have never opened it up to official mod support - if he opened it up without realizing that some/many people would use it in ways that he didn't originally like, want, or feel was balanced, that was a major personal oversight and I frankly doubt he is that shortsighted regarding design.

Similarly to Thundercraft's original point that any one player/owner of Rimworld is free to play modded [unbalanced], modded [semi-balanced, vanilla+, etc], or vanilla, that is the most important point. Any one person who says that any one way is the only correct way to play the game/participate in the story is inherently and outright wrong, and no reasoning will change that in either direction. Any given person's most correct way to partake of Tynan's story generator is to do so in the way that is most fun for them, whether it is vanilla or modded, and knowing that a given mechanic of the game is there for balance does not make something more fun for many people, even if it makes sense to them. Furthermore, when people mod something like this, it is in pursuit of that fun - anyone, on either side, objectively trying to call out or shoot down somebody else's way of doing that needs to take a step back and take a deep look at what they're actually trying to accomplish, because chances are it's a fairly petty thing at the end of the day. Finally, while game mechanics are added incrementally in most cases, and especially small team early access programs like Rimworld take time to do that, those mechanics aren't always revisited for major changes, whether by afterthought or oversight, and will often cease to make sense for either balance, lore, or fun. In those cases, modding can and, if allowed to, likely will change those things for the better of at least one of those traits if not all of them.

Anyone reading this is free to take anything they want from OP's ideas, the ideas of those to whom OP addressed/posed the discussion, or a random image of a disembodied anthropomorphic teal penguin's head at their leisure, as a lot of people have good points for any and all sides on either side, and ignoring tone certain questions as per why one mechanic is done or another mod is taken against it might be answered.

P.S for OP and other preceding replies, I sincerely apologize if any of my post comes across as an attack against anyone in particular, I did my best to tailor its tone specifically to not be and have failed in that if it seems like one. Respectfully I will not be subscribing to this discussion (or likely therefore replying to replies targeted at me hereafter). Enjoy your assorted Rimstories to the best of your ability, sincerely.
Last edited by Mcgrolox; 13 Jan, 2022 @ 12:29am
snowbie 15 Jan, 2022 @ 9:11am 
Real life isn't balanced.
Zaeryn Carine 15 Jan, 2022 @ 10:33am 
Originally posted by very scary:
Dude you can legit just make stone buildings just as easily in the same amount of time as steel if you just place down a stonecutting bench right away, i dont want to never be able to use steel as a building material because it burns. Also insulting everyone that uses this mod in your explanation on why the mod is bad isnt very good.

Dude, that is objectively wrong. The fastest stone wall to construct is sandstone at 11.25-sec, while steel only takes 2.25-sec or 1/5th the time. A stonecutter's table takes 33.33-sec to construct and a sandstone chunk takes 26.67-sec to be cut into 20 sandstone blocks, which are enough for 4 walls. Not counting pawn and material travel time, in the time it takes to make a stonecutter's table, cut a sandstone block and make 4 sandstone walls you could have made almost 47 steel walls.

Please, quote my "insult".

Originally posted by Chubbypenguin:
...If Tynan didn't want people to tailor his story maker to their personal tastes, he would have never opened it up to official mod support - if he opened it up without realizing that some/many people would use it in ways that he didn't originally like, want, or feel was balanced, that was a major personal oversight and I frankly doubt he is that shortsighted regarding design....

Tynan allowing people to mod his game doesn't mean he doesn't intend or hope for them to play it the way he designed it at least once; otherwise, he would not have designed it that way.

Originally posted by Chubbypenguin:
...Similarly to Thundercraft's original point that any one player/owner of Rimworld is free to play modded [unbalanced], modded [semi-balanced, vanilla+, etc], or vanilla, that is the most important point....

I don't understand the point of this statement when my post literally started with, and I quote myself, "People are free to use whatever mods they want..."
KirasErli 16 Feb, 2022 @ 11:06am 
And to continue your quote "People are free to use whatever mods they want; however ..... the creator/s and users don't understand the game balance in the first place." Homie, you may have not necessarily meant it this way but that is super condescending. You're calling people who make mods that change some core aspects of the game ignorant to one degree or another for wanting to change balance. This whole rant is kinda misplaced because you are simultaneously assuming what both the players and Tynan are thinking/saying/wanting at the same time. All that I know is that I am personally glad that there is mod support and I think assuming that people jump right into this game and change the crap out of it before they actually play it or see it being played is being a bit presumptuous. I do hear your side of the argument and power to you for liking the parts that make the game feel balanced for you. Here's my however, some people find that mechanics like steel burning to be entirely immersion breaking and/or frustrating. The game is about story telling, and I am glad there are tools that let people set a specific direction for their stories.
Zaeryn Carine 16 Feb, 2022 @ 12:48pm 
From the original author of this mod:
"Seriously can't think of a reason why steel and other metal would catch fire without some extreme nonsense going on."

From the author of Metal Don't Burn:
"Metals don't burn. So, stop it! Bad Rimworld.

Steel, plasteel, and power conduits don't burn. Silver, gold, and power switches can only burn a little bit.

Also, steel is more durable because... it's steel."

From the author of [WD] Hands Are Not Outside
"...I will never believe that anybody can design a spacer-tech marine power armor that leaves hands and feet not covered!
So no pawns wearing marine armor with shot off hands and toes cut off by scythers anymore!"

Some comments:
"Yeah I've never understood why steel are so bad in its durability in rimworld comparably to real life, it's awfuly close to your wood-wall durability :p" -Moon:G

"Petition to rename mod to 'Jet Fuel cant melt steel beams'. Ty I wanted this for a long time :)" -Grescon

"Regardless of the temperature at which steel stops being steel, there's still no temperature where steel bursts into flames which spreads. The issue isn't likely to be a steel dining chair in a wooden room where it could potentially actually reach a high temperatures, it's more when we have an entirely steel room that somehow burns away like it's made of tissue paper." -darktoes

"Steel is NOT flammable and temperature of over 1800 degrees celsius is not easily achievable, say what you will but this should be considered a bug and this mod fixes that for which I am thankful." -Loafy

"Melting Points
Metals Fahrenheit (f) Celsius (c)
Silver, Sterling 1640 893
Steel, Carbon 2500-2800 1371-1540
Steel, Stainless 2750 1510
This range of temperatures doesn't really happen in normal playthroughs" -[T.R.4.S.H.] llama boi

"@[T.R.4.S.H.] llama boi Thats why this mod exists." -Chris_ [author]

"@rpayne88 sure but an electrical short should't set a steel wall on fire. Not ever" -HeuvosRancheros

"I would have gladly downloaded this mod if not for the fact that i'm using the Vanilla Apparel Expanded, which adds marine gloves and boots. This would render them useless.
Other than that, it is a great mod. And it makes a lot of sense!" -Garr Incorporated

"@Garr Same, although VAE marine gloves and boots do not cover bionics. So you may want this mod for your cyborgs." -Nex-Razin doesn't know Bionics are only Shoulders/Legs

"good mod. but given how many other modders make armor that "already" covers hands and feet AKA Boots/socks. This mod was a joy to try on a mostly vanilla play though. and as a "Game tester." I approve of this little patch for simplicity's sake" -Mechinode

"wait this wasnt vanilla?
tynan you bongomoid" -tha peng

"Wait this is actually a necessary mod? What were the vanilla designers thinking? holy ♥♥♥♥" -The Blind One

"@The Blind One
Yeah, I was surprised as well!
You could open ingame info of the Vanilla armor and see that it really doesn't cover hands and feet! D:
I noticed that when power armor easily reflected low-AP shotgun blasts... Till one hit a hand" -Wemd [author]
oinko sploinko 16 May, 2022 @ 5:51pm 
Worthless discussion please lock
Vattende 17 Oct, 2022 @ 8:46pm 
can only agree, what's the point of this discussion. You don't like it, don't use it, as simple !
Zaeryn Carine 17 Oct, 2022 @ 9:07pm 
The point is to inform the large number of people that think the game was incorrectly designed know that it was intentionally designed the way it is for balance reasons.

Knowing that, those that thought they were balancing the game will realize they no longer need to so they don't need this in their mod list, which could improve their game performance to some degree, while those that don't care that it unbalances the game can use the mod to their hearts' content.
Ok but counterpoint

I like to have fun in my game and fires spreading randomly to all my ♥♥♥♥ kinda kills it for me
Zaeryn Carine 3 Nov, 2022 @ 6:25pm 
Okay but what's the point of your post? My original post literally starts with, and I quote myself, "People are free to use whatever mods they want;"
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