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X4: Foundations >  Workshop > sprIder's Workshop > Mining, Gas Collector and Raw Scrap Converter Stations > Discussions
Mining, Gas Collector and Raw Scrap Converter Stations
Description Discussions10 Comments324 Change Notes
Noddie 21 Nov, 2021 @ 2:26pm
Balancing Vorschlag
Hi, ich schreibe das mal hier ins Forum damit es nicht unter geht ;)

die Idee des Mods finde ich super. Ich habe sie jetzt auch mal probiert.
Die Ausbeute und vor allem der Energiezellenverbrauch sind aber deutlich zu hoch.

Die Bergbaustationen für Erz, Silizium und Eis produzieren 1.008.000 Einheiten pro Stunde bei Dauerbetrieb und brauchen dafür 2.016.000 Energiezellen pro Stunde. Das sind 192 (!) Energiezellenproduktionen (Standard also nicht von den TER) bei 100% Sonnenlicht!

Ähnlich ist es bei den (non S) Gas Sammelstationen. Die Produzieren 252.000 Gas pro Stunde und brauchen für den Dauerbetrieb 504.000 Energiezellen pro Stunde. Das sind 48 Energiezellenproduktionen bei 100% Sonnenlicht.

Selbst für einen Betrieb als eigenständige Station ist das viel zu viel weil diese Mengen kaum abtransportiert werden können.

Es ist ja nichts dagegen einzuwenden wenn eine Produzierte Einheit 2 Energiezellen kostet.
Dann sollte der Output aber maximal 50k betragen das wären dann 100k Energiezellen also nur 10 Energiezellenproduktionen. Braucht man mehr, lässt sich das dann besser skalieren.

Allerdings wäre es besser auch den Energiezellenverbrauch etwas zu reduzieren.
0,5 - 1 Energiezellen pro Einheit wäre besser.

Praktisch wäre es wenn es auch für die Mineralien S-Stationen geben würde die dann zum Beispiel nur 20k oder nur 10k Einheiten produzieren. Die sollten auch deutlich kleiner als die großen Modelle sein. So kann man diese dann besser in Stationen integrieren.
Die schon vorhandenen S-Stationen für Gase sollten natürlich ähnliche Werte haben ;)

Die Preise für die Blueprints würde ich aber so lassen. Dann bleiben die Stationen dem Endgame vorbehalten.

Es kommt halt sehr stark darauf an wie man diese Produktionen benutzen soll. Als einzel Stationen, als Produktion in einer anderen Station oder beides ;)

Gruß
Last edited by Noddie; 21 Nov, 2021 @ 2:35pm
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Showing 1-9 of 9 comments
Omega Epsilon 8 Feb, 2022 @ 1:42pm 
From Google Translate for English speakers:

Dragnod#:

Balancing suggestion

Hi, I'll write this here in the forum so that it doesn't get lost ;)

I like the idea of ​​the mod. I've tried them now too.
The yield and above all the energy cell consumption are clearly too high.

Ore, Silicon, and Ice Mining Stations produce 1,008,000 units per hour on a continuous basis using 2,016,000 Power Cells per hour. That's 192 (!) energy cell productions (not standard from the TER) with 100% sunlight!

It is similar with the (non S) gas collecting stations. They produce 252,000 gas per hour and need 504,000 energy cells per hour for continuous operation. That's 48 power cell productions at 100% sunlight.

Even for an operation as an independent station, this is far too much because these quantities can hardly be transported away.

There's nothing wrong with a produced unit costing 2 energy cells.
Then the output should be a maximum of 50k, that would be 100k energy cells, i.e. only 10 energy cell productions. If you need more, it can be scaled up better.

However, it would be better to reduce the energy cell consumption a bit as well.
0.5 - 1 energy cells per unit would be better.

It would be practical if there were also S-stations for the minerals, which then, for example, only produce 20k or only 10k units. They should also be significantly smaller than the larger models. This way you can better integrate them into stations.
The already existing S stations for gases should of course have similar values ​​;)

But I would leave the prices for the blueprints as they are. Then the stations are reserved for the endgame.

It depends very much on how you want to use these productions. As individual stations, as production in another station or both ;)

Greetings
#1
TSP 16 Jan, 2023 @ 5:29am 
I have my own input here but was too large for the comment section:

Hello! I think there's great potential with this mod. It is however greatly, greatly overpowered.

I used the math here:
https://roguey.co.uk/x4/wares/

I'll take an example... Terran Ore Mining Station. It costs:
856 Computronic Substrate
6250 Energy Cells
1742 Silicon Carbide

856 * 8280 = 7.087.680
6250 * 16 = 100.000
1742 * 1414 = 2.463.188
Sum = 9.650.868 (+50.000 to hire builder)

It produces 500.000 ores per hour = 25.000.000
It costs 500.000 energy cells per hour = 8.000.000

Total profit per hour - assuming you even pay for the energy cells - is 17.000.000. In short, you pay back your Ore mining station in less than half an hour.

Take in mind, these are all the average prices of wares.

The imbalance can be put into better perspective: How many hundreds of mining ships will it cost you to produce 500.000 ores per hour? And what are the risks compared to having a station?

A mining ship arguably pays itself back after 1-4 full days of playtime (depending on richness, closeness to station, expense of the ship + loadout) assuming it doesn't die in that time. This station does it in half an hour, for the price of a single minimal equipped mining ship.

My suggestion: increase the building costs a hundred fold. At least. It's an end-game solution.

What's more, silicon is worth almost 3x as much, for the same cost of this ore station. Meaning profit within the first 10 minutes after building a silicon station. It's madness.

The special energy cell station suffers from similar unbalance. The cost is ~18x of a solar plant, but it produces 100x the resources.
#2
sprIder  [developer] 16 Jan, 2023 @ 9:02am 
Hello Agent Orange and thank you for your feedback.

That's true and I will never say otherwise, these stations are completely overpowered.

I could argue against it now, say that others have already gotten used to the prices and now after so long such a change would be mean.
And I could argue that the purchase price of the station blueprint is not low.
And that you will certainly have difficulties actually consistently and always selling 500 k of ore or silicon per hour.

But you are right. In fact, I just had to realize that both the generic mining stations, and the Terran ones, are not the most expensive in the game. And I will fix that in the next update. It certainly won't meet your (possible) desire, but they will definitely become more expensive.
#3
TSP 16 Jan, 2023 @ 10:33am 
Originally posted by sprIder:
Hello Agent Orange and thank you for your feedback.

That's true and I will never say otherwise, these stations are completely overpowered.

I could argue against it now, say that others have already gotten used to the prices and now after so long such a change would be mean.
And I could argue that the purchase price of the station blueprint is not low.
And that you will certainly have difficulties actually consistently and always selling 500 k of ore or silicon per hour.

But you are right. In fact, I just had to realize that both the generic mining stations, and the Terran ones, are not the most expensive in the game. And I will fix that in the next update. It certainly won't meet your (possible) desire, but they will definitely become more expensive.
Thank you for the response. I actually spent the past 5 hours rebalancing your mod with the opened source you graciously provided for us to tweak. Would you be okay with me posting it somewhere? I can even just give it to you (+nice changelog of what I changed!) so you can re-upload a balanced version with full credit to you?
#4
sprIder  [developer] 17 Jan, 2023 @ 9:31am 
As written a few months ago, I have nothing against it in principle, as long as I am asked (friendly) and named as the original author. Therefore, yes, you are welcome to do so.
I have two suggestions:
First, I could open an official discussion/topic here, where everyone who wants to is invited to post their versions. E.g. as links to Google Drive / Dropbox / whatever. Then all users could find the different versions better.
Second: To make the versions more decluttered, it would make sense to publish "patch" versions. These contain only the files that are actually changed. Just like I did with the 60 seconds build time mod: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ronk0j2nxom8eqw/mining_station_60s.zip?dl=0
If needed, I can also explain this in more detail and give tips.

One last thing: it's very kind of you to point out your post in the comments. But you don't need to, I get the notification anyway! :)
Last edited by sprIder; 17 Jan, 2023 @ 9:33am
#5
TSP 18 Jan, 2023 @ 12:47am 
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#6
sprIder  [developer] 21 Jan, 2023 @ 1:44am 
I'm sorry but i can't read your comment because apparently somebody reported it. And Steam hasn't done its check yet.
#7
sprIder  [developer] 23 Feb, 2023 @ 8:09am 
Originally posted by Agent Orange:
Cheers. I have decided to just add a "readme rebalanced.txt" in the mod folder while keeping the other .txt files you already put there, without mentioning myself as an author. That way the content.xml and readme.txt still lead to you and anyone can just use the file as they like.

I'm not a proficient x4 modder (yours was actually the first one I edited, but it was easy as it's just changing numbers) so I don't have the expertise to just make patches just yet. On the positive side, that means it's very easy to install/uninstall the version I've uploaded as people can just overwrite the folder. The downside is that when you do an update, it overwrites my changes :steammocking:, unless they turn off workshop updates for X4 in the main menu settings for extensions...

When you do update it, or in the next two weekends, whichever happens first, I'll do my best to learn about patching.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cartAdYdqMtYe9MeQj289JWW3VWjG8Jo/view?usp=share_link

So for anyone interested, download the file, and extract the \mining_station\ in your \steam\steamapps\common\X4 Foundations\extensions\ directory. The rebalanced readme is included. And to emphasize, it should be very balanced with the vanilla economy. :steamthumbsup:

Whatever the hell Steam did wrong here: I still can't read your comment. But I can quote it and then read it. Anyway.

I like what you changed. And I'll probably include an idea or two from it in the upcoming update.

To that, I should say that your mod will not be compatible with the upcoming update. I have changed the t-files considerably. So unfortunately you will have to make all your changes again. Unless you have learned to patch in the meantime :D Then it might work anyway, depending on how (well) you do it.
#8
TSP 23 Feb, 2023 @ 10:26pm 
Ugh that really sucks. It's gotta be the share string attached to the google drive link that's causing it.

I've decided to take a break from X4 until a patch or two into the release of Kingdom End, as I like my X games stable (To the definition of stable for Egosoft anyway :P ). Really enjoyed your mod though and a serious performance saver not needing tens or hundreds of miners per station just to mine.
#9
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