Date: 2022-01-07 (v10)
Leader: Jayavaraman VII
Game Speed: Fast (extended)
Map Size: Tiny
Difficulty: Prince
Major Civs: 8
City States: 10
Wide Penalty: Medium
Game Modes: Babarian Clans
Exp & DLCs: R&F, GS, New Frontier Pack
Relevant Mods: Extended Eras, Better Coastal Cities and Water Tiles, TCS Free Walls for City-States

Wanted to try a scenario that is all set for tall play.
Choosing the pantheon was hard, since Fertility Rites sounds just so nice for ciy growth, but playing Jayavaraman VII I decided to go with River Goddess. I thought there was no use in overgrown cities with constant housing and amenity problems, so I took the neat 2 Amenities and 2 Housing.
Follower Belief: This decision was not easy. I am usually not a fan of Feed the World, but I though it just fits in so nice. However I feared an early struggle with Production and I wanted to add another incentive to keep the Scripture Policy Card to make full use of the unique leader bonus Monasteries of the King (food for Holy Site adjacencies).
Founder Belief: Since I planned to have highly populated cities a Founder Belief that scales with followers sounded nice. I took Cross-Cultural Dialogue to mitigate the delay of Campuses, since I needed Holy Sites, Commercials Hubs and Harbors first (all to boost Food). I took this over World Church, since I would already get a ton of Culture from Prasats and I didn't want my test game to end too fast.
Worship Belief: Stupa was the obvious choice for me, since I already had tons of sources for Food income. Otherwise I would have taken Gurdwaras.
For my setup and with a +7 Holy Site in my Capital I was heading for Hildegard of Bingen to complement that. Therefore I saved up some faith and built, against my actual plan, an early campus. I was going to head for Oracle anyway and without Work Ethic I wouldn't have made it to snipe it first.
Additional Trade Routes, Amenities and extra Housing were on my top priority list for GPs. The Great Scientists that buff Campuses and their buildings were not all that interesting than usual, since I didn't plan to go beyond 5 cities.
Since I would have a great disadvantage in acquiring GPPs until my first Dedication Buildings kick in I was obviously heading for Oracle.
Hanging Gardens, a wonder I usually avoid, seemed to be, all of a sudden, very spicy. I headed for that in my second city and the AI didn't seem to care much for that wonder, this time.
I was about to start building Temple of Artemis when the AI was just so much faster. However, a well placed Colosseum would yield tons of great Amenities for my empire and I was able to reach 4 cities (which is not that easy when settling very sparse).
I was of two minds about the Casa de Contratación. The yield bonuses for foreign continents would never kick in for me, but the extra governor titles would help to unlock some of the Dedication Buildings Promotion dependent abilities, so I headed for it.
Colossus was nice for the extra Trade Route.
Now, about Ankor Wat. I was not planing to build this, although it seems to fit well for the tall play style. But space is a problem with few cities and the bonuses are not that great compared to the costs. However, I found a perfect spot in my 5th city, called Ankor Wat, so the discussion was over.
Growing the cities in the beginning was quite easy due to the Food from Holy Sites and domestic Trade. Magnus boost to Trade was all welcome and I found myself focusing Farms even more than ever before. I was heading for Liang with Aquaculture to add some nice extra source of food. I found it just too easy to grow my cities, but I guess this setup was beyond average. I am curious what others expecience.
Taking the City Life Golden Age Dedication I hit about 60% city growth bonus. +15% from Haning Gardens, +10% from City Life, +16% from having 5 Cities only and +20% from Amenities. Fertility Rites could have added another 10%, but I had to plan very well to keep all my cities Ecstatic in the mid game. I was just waiting for the time that I could replace some mines with Farms.
Housing was hard to come by and I tried to go for Neighborhoods asap. River Godess, Aquaculture and Farms helped quite well, but still it was not easy to provide enough housing.
Reaching about 42 population in Renaissance Era felt a bit to much.
The cost for domestic Trade Routes is high. I felt the missing money and that made it really feel like a decision to play tall. Since I was able to build many districts in my big cities the domestic yields were great and I was planing to buff them as soon as I was able to get Tier4/5 buildings for my Commercial Hubs and Harbors. The Food yield from domestic Trade was insane, and even the Production yield was ok. But the lack of Gold was not that easy to come by. Until building some Central Banks and Millenium Ports the low number of available Trade Routes was a real struggle.
I was focusing on T4/5 buildings in Commercial Hubs and Harbors for the domestic yields, Food and extra Trade Routes. Just after that I headed for Campus buildings. However I felt the urge to pull out some Giant Industrial Centers, since Power started to become a problem.

Tall play was very satisfying. There were new challenges and the playstyle felt rewarding. However, it felt just too easy, but no more easy than a normal game vs. Prince AI. City population started to sky rocket once the most Food and growth modifiers were in place. This might be due to the perfect synergy with Jayavaraman VII, or needs a bit of nerf.

Info
Date: December 2022/Janurary 2023
Leader: Pachacuti
Game Speed: Standard (Extended)
Map Size: Standard
Difficulty: Deity
Major Civs: 8
City States: 15
Wide Penalty: There’s a Wide Penalty?
Game Modes: Barbarian Clans, Heroes, Secret Societies, Corporations & Monopolies
Exp & DLCs: R&F, GS, New Frontier Pack
Relevant Mods: Extended Eras, District Expansions, Bear's Governor Overhaul, 6T, Civilizations Expanded Lite. Wondrous Wonders (National Wonders Only)

Summary
This is a multiplayer game, the snapshot is taken from turn 250 in the Renaissance Era. I have 4 cities, each with a population of over 20, and my opponent has 14 cities. In the earlyish game, I was able to keep up with my opponent despite them expanding quicker than me, and the fact they had Hercules which allowed them to greatly accelerate their expansion speed. However, when we started to get to turn 100 or so, their science production increased to a point where I was unable to keep up, and while I was able to match them culturally thanks to having 2 different coroporations that let me make cultural productions, they were crushing me when it came to Tourism. As well as getting far more Great Person Points as well. This is despite the fact I had multiple tall extensions for education, as well as worship tall extensions to double the science I was receiving from my Follower Belief.

In general, I did not feel that the % bonus for having 4 cities with 20 Population was significant enough to make a difference compared to someone with two or even three times as many cities as me (three of their cities had only been made during the last 25 turns). While I far and away had the most scientific city in the world, this was more due to the National Wonders and other bonuses instead of the Tall Extensions or % bonus for having a large city. Furthermore, the Tall Extensions never felt as powerful or rewarding as they should have been considering they have both a tech/cultural requirement, as well as a population requirement. Especially as the stronger effects were gatekeeper by having Specific Governors and Governor Promotions (though that can be turned off).

I suggest making the % bonus for 20 population stronger, especially for the smaller civilizations. Perhaps it should scale by 10% per city under 7, rather than 5%? Furthermore, I firmly believe that the Tall Extensions should be made stronger, by population scaling or % modifiers from the get go, without requiring a Governor to activate them. On top of increased Great Person Production, and decreasing the number of extensions that require power as well. As I’ve had several extensions built before I was anywhere near making a Power Plant.

This might be best to be optional, so that people can scale it as they want. But as it is, this mod simply does not do enough.

Thank you very much for the Report. I'm going to Plan according Changes. Also I'd like to discuss this further If you allow. Gonna sende you a FA.
Thanks again for the Report!!

You are very welcome, and I will be happy to add you as a friend to discuss this further.

I second Fury of the Tempest's report; mine is pretty much the same except with Deity AI and Real Strategy enabled along with some other gameplay mods I've listed down below.

Date: Nine Games over the course of December 30th 2022 to January 2nd 2022
Game Speed: Standard, with Take Your Time using High Era Scaling for Techs and Civics
Map Size: 7 Small Maps, and 2 Standard Maps
Difficulty: 3 at Deity++, 3 at Deity+, and 3 at Regular Deity
Major Civs: I played Civilizations Expanded Lite Tokugawa Japan 6 times and Seondeok Korea twice on the standard maps.
Major Civs: No Modded Civilizations, but Civ Expanded Lite did balance all of the existing civilizations.
City States: 24 Every game.
Wide Penalty: ???
Game Modes: Dramatic Ages, Monopolies(w/Monopolies++), Oceans, and Tournaments.
Exp & DLCs: All Exp and DLC
Relevant Mods: Real Strategy, Civilizations Expanded Lite, City Lights, More Maritime, Deity++, Take Your Time Ultimate, Dedications Rework, Specialist Progression, Bear's Governors and Wonders (I guess this is relevant as they change the balance of the game), and Project 6T. (no Urban Complexity this time).


Overall, the game started pretty well and I was able to keep up, but over the course of all nine games I found myself falling behind in the Classical/Post-Classical Era. With several of the AI Civilizations reaching the Renaissance and Industrial Eras before I reached the Medieval Era.

I was able to build the Oracle and the Mausoleum in each of the six Japan Games in pretty good spots too, and in the Korea games, I was also able to build the Oracle. Occasionally, I managed to also snag the Colosseum.

I could consistently reach around 12 population in my capital, however my second and third cities suffered from stagnation at around 7-8 population. I usually needed to found at least three more cities each time for extra Campuses or to cluster Theater Squares around my Government Plaza and the Oracle (the Mausoleum and Colosseum too when I could).

Nevertheless, the AI manages to consistently draw ahead in the Medieval Era and it's almost impossible to catch up without founding more than 7 cities.

Thank you for the Report! WE really have to discuss this further. I was having a conversstion 'bout this with FuryOfTheTempest, already. However WE need to consider different experiences. Hope it's OK If I add you, as well?

Sure

Date: May 1st, 2023
Leader: Tokugawa (Japan)
Game Speed: Standard
Map Size: Enormous (Yet (not) Another Maps Pack)
Difficulty: Demi-god (Smoother Difficulty 2.0)
Major Civs: 10
City States: 24
Game Modes: None
Exp & DLCs: All
Relevant Mods: All the mods I use are in this collection:
https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2898981878

Overall, I find this mod to be very fun and I really like playing the game in a way that isn't just wide. However, while playing it seemed that the AI wasn't settling as many cities as normal and, after looking through the SQL files, it seems this mod impacts the AI at least a little bit.

I'm happy to see the AI have some idea of how to go for tall play, but I'm concerned that the way it's implemented may be stunting their expansion a bit when they are going wide. All the AI in my game only had about 10 cities by the end, when they normally have at least 15+. I am playing with a Smooth Difficulty mod that does remove the AI's bonus settlers, but this still feels low once late game comes around. I think, if possible, the AI modifications should be changed to make the AI decide whether to go tall or wide sooner, and also commit better to what it chooses.

One of the important early decisions is what to pick as your first Government Plaza building. The Ancestral Hall is great for wide play and the Audience Chamber is great for tall play. When the AI reaches this point, they should have some idea of what they want to go for so they can pick the better building for them.

Another important factor is their number of cities. The AI should aim for an absolute minimum of 3 cities in my opinion. Even with the Yield Bonuses turned on (which I don't have on), I think the benefit of having a whole extra city is better than having 1 or 2 cities. Ideally though, I think the AI should try to have 4-5 cities. I think this is the optimal goal as it doesn't make tall extensions too hard to get and the AI can get the full benefit of the new policy cards the mod adds. However, if an AI reaches 6 or more cities, I think the best course of action is for it to just play wide. It should just play like normal and pretend tall isn't even an option.

So, to kinda summarize those ideas, I'm thinking maybe the AI should play normally until it either hits 3-5 cities, is ready to build its first Government Plaza building, the game reaches the Classical Era, or some combination of these. At this point, the AI should make its decision on whether to play tall or wide. It can make this decision based of a variety of factors. For example, maybe it can decide based on how many good spots to settle it can see, or maybe based on whether or not it is falling behind the other players in number of cities. A bit of RNG can also be added to make the AI decision more dynamic from game to game as well. Once it makes a decision though, it should commit to that. If it goes wide, it should behave as normal and pretend tall isn't an option. If it goes tall, it should stay strictly below 6 cities in my opinion. It should also just not play tall if it has 6+ cities already. Maybe it can use tall as a fallback if it drops to 5 or less cities due to war, but it should otherwise play strictly wide.

Sorry for the wall of text there! I'm happy to discuss this further with you if you want! I really like the mod and want to see it continue to improve!


Edit: It was only after I wrote this that in other files I noticed you assigned a Tall/Taller trait to certain leaders. I think this approach works okay as well, but they should still prioritize having 3-5 cities I think. I had Indonesia in my last game, for example, and she only ever had 2 cities and I think it made her fall behind really bad as the game went on. These leaders should also (if possible) have a priority to build the Audience Chamber. Could you double check that no other leader is getting affected at all? Everyone else still had fewer cities than normal. If everything is fine in your mod, then I guess it was just by chance.

First of all thank you for the detailed report! I fully agree with you and the AI modifications I initially made did not work out as expected. I hesitated to use lua for AI control, since it is prone to MP desyncs and mod incompatibilities (only if done wrong).

I think boosting the AI a bit more would really improve the game experience!
Would love to discuss that with you!

Sure! I'd be happy to discuss that with you!

Hey guys,
first things first: I'm sorry, but my english has gotten a little bit rusty. So it's very likely that there are many mistakes, but i hope the content is clear.

I really enjoyed the last two rounds with this mod. It's fresh and a welcome variety.
Date: 24.05. to 27.05.2023
Leader: Yongle (of course)
Game Speed: Standard
Map Size: Standard
Difficulty: Godlike
Major Civs: Germany (Ludwig), Canada, Korea (Sejong), Macedonian, Egypt (Cleopatra Ptolemaiv), Maori, Brasilia, me (Yongle)
City States: 12
Game Modes: none
Exp & DLCs: All
Relevant Mods: ancient egyptian pantheons, Build wonders on mountains, lady of the reeds and marshes, p0kiehl's better pantheons, greatest cities, UC forest districts, lot of UI


One City "Challenge"
I settled in place, next to two flooded rivers and at least some hills. Food was no Problem, but i started a few projects for food with Yongle. With the pantheon lady of the reeds and marshes, a lot of marshes and some woods i tried to get some wonders like Etemenanki, Hanging Gardens, Temple of Arthemis, but they all failed, because the AI was always one to five turns ahead.
I focussed on growth and building up my infrastructure and tried to keep up with the AI. Some of them were much ahead and did very well. I tried to keep up a little bit of a army to keep my points high till the renaissance. Then my production was very good and i could train a little army in no time. Because of two great wars next to my borders the remaining AI Brasilia liked me. So i haven't got any declaration of war.
After my first indrustial zone my productions skyrocket and then all other yields.
I have built three wonders: Ruhrvalley, Taj Mahal and Biosphere (i tried to maybe get a cultural victory...).
But a space race was with just one city much easier.

The AI did pretty well in the early game, when they had just a few cities. They did also good in the late game, but the smaller ones. Brasilia wiped out Germany and had a to large empire. Some smaller nations took advantage from the mod and could overtake them.

The game wasn't to easy, but also no problem. But it was really nice to plan this one city and see those yields grow.

I had just one bug (Archiological museum and artifact metropole - archiologists could be bought but couldn't fill the second building. They and the artifact just dissapaered.


Thanks for this great mod

Thank you for the detailed report! Happy to hear the mod worked out for you and made planning your city (or few cities) more fun! Also the AI ist something we want to further improve, but sounds like it wasn't that bad. Did you find the IZ TEs to bei too powerful?

Date: 10/19/23
Leader: Joao III
Game Speed: Normal
Map Size: Standard
Difficulty: Deity
Major Civs: 8 include myself
City States: Started with 12, ended with around 18ish(?)
Game Modes: Barbarian Clans, Secret Societies, Heroes & Legends, Monopolies & Corps,
Exp & DLCs: All
Relevant Mods: Sukritact's Oceans, Resources, Wonders

Summary
One city challenge. Won a science victory around turn 206 with about 50 population. Tons of fun! Played on archipelago to make full use of Joao's trade routes. Grabbed Oracle, Mausoleum, Kilwa, Oxford and Broadway, Artemis... Can't remember if I did any others. Grabbed Sinbad early and that meant I could buy the tall extensions as soon as they were available. Had about 2000 science and 2400 culture per turn by the end. Kilwa with Owls of Minerva was obviously busted, but I loved the tall extensions with Pingala. Especially the tall policy cards... so cool! I don't have any critical feedback, just wanted to say how fun this made a one city challenge on Deity. I've only done one before without this mod and that was around turn 300 with Babylon (Science).

Other notes
The map seemed to fill out normally with the AI having a typical amount of settlers from what I could gather. Wish I could comment more on how the mod affected their play but I was just focused on learning the new mechanics with my civ. Can't recall their city sizes either. Sorry!

Originally posted by GeneralButts:

Date: 10/19/23
Leader: Joao III
Game Speed: Normal
Map Size: Standard
Difficulty: Deity
Major Civs: 8 include myself
City States: Started with 12, ended with around 18ish(?)
Game Modes: Barbarian Clans, Secret Societies, Heroes & Legends, Monopolies & Corps,
Exp & DLCs: All
Relevant Mods: Sukritact's Oceans, Resources, Wonders
...

First of all: Thank you for taking the time to write that report!
Feedback like that is what makes us work on this mod!

50 population sounds like a lot, even for a W&T OCC. You must have had a great planned city there. We are always trying to balance food and housing bonuses for Tall Extensions. That's why I'd like to ask: How die you satisfy the food and housing requirements for growth? Oceans Mod + Aquaculture + Neighborhood? One can usually make use of domestic trade with buffed food yields from harbor TEs, but that is no option for OCCs. Maybe you used the policy cards to boost food and production for trade routes to allies (which should Work great when playing jao)?

Really appreciate you tried to keep an eye on the AI. So far the AI seems to be unaffected by the mod and that is intended since WE removed all AI routines and changes for now. We are working on real support for tall play for AIs.

One more question: Would you have Made great usw of a TE that allowed you to work the outer rings? Probably not so much on that map, since the 4th and 5th ring must have been ocean mainly?

This isn't following the format of the regular suggestions on this thread... because I believe it affects every game.
With that said, I think it would be great if there was an option on the menu to customize the threshold of when we're able to build tall extensions.
Example:
-An option to make the tall extensions become available at 10 population minimum.
-An option to make single city challenges even better, because right now we get the minimum bonus with 3 cities so there's no real reason to play with 2 or 1 city only.
-An option to customize how often we can get tall extensions, being available with every new population instead of every 2.
-An option to customize the minimum threshold for tall extensions as you get new cities, with them increasing by 1 instead of every 2 as you settle new cities.

These are all QoL changes of course, and the default settings would still be the current ones in the game. Been subscribed to your mod for a very long time and it's very fun to use too.

edit: fixed a typo