Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
OR 1 DPS perk, 1 defense perk
OR 1 strong ability and 1 minor ability.
Or 5 gremlin abilities.
So investing has some thinking, you must remember that LWOTC lets you run ALOT of soldiers at once so extra AP will be really spread thin so think twice with each upgrade. With more soldiers it also means more oportunities to specialize with each one of them rather than trying to be a strong generalist.
Thanks for your well thought out points, here is my 2 cents:
1)fully agree. Most of them are quite cheap already though. Good Idea to cull the outliers though.
2) I mainly agree. i dont have that much experience in that area though. Possibly more input needed. I also think the "Tanklin" trees are somewhat broken. Fixing them might be important to balance tanks the right way.
3) I disagree with that point. There is a lot of stuff in the mod that provides immunities of some kind. If that is a good thing might warrant another discussion. But i dont value them as strongly. I would probly tend towards 15-20AP.
4) Around 30 seems sensible.
5) Concealment is quite reliant on your other perks,im not a big fan of the concealment mechanic in general.
You made a good point for some strong combos, so 30+ makes sense i guess.
6) I feel like most Gremlin abilities are quite strong, but dont scale that well with other skills. 15/25 seems sensible.
7) PSI-Balancing is a complete different point in itself. Many of the strong PSI-perks are on the Supersoldier-trees. More data needed here!
8/9/10) I agree
11) agree, but also mostly already the realiiy. Again , probably a good idea to purge the outliers.
------
Generally it might be easier to purge some of the worst offending traits first.
I dont have to many hours on the mod-pack yet and i feel the traits are generally "fine".
There is always room for improvment and i commend your efforts.
Thanks a lot for that :)
--incoherent ramble end ---
Plain out immunities kinda cheapen out other perks, why take perks like blast padding (+50% dr towards explosive) if you can take fortress ?. Or things like self treatment (valkyre class) completely makes things like vipers blood redundant because it gives you immunity to poison, fire AND acid at the same time.
The worst offender in my eyes is the Sixth Sense because aside from being immune to all non direct attacks, it also makes you unhitable by Faceless (they cannot literally damage you).
I guess i value immunities as super powerful as complete damage mitigation with 1 passive ability and no further imput from player as really powerful. Though i guess 50 is too harsh, 40 so its on par with other powerful/end game abilities seems more lenient.
Though my problem is that if they will be too cheap they will be easily stackable and defeat too many tools of Advent at once.
Or i guess it should be split to 2 categories, strong and weak immunities, for example Steadfast from Tank tree gives immunity to stun only which is rather specific and shouldnt cost as much as Sixth sense or Fortress.
With weak immunities costing only 25 AP and strong 35 AP.
I guess thats one point to re-do my list i posted already in the future to make immunities less harsh to pick up.
I will be dissecting traits in future too, outliers like Militia or Veteran already show their ugly heads on my radar for doing way too much and invalidating many other perks with their existence...
Immunities can be incredibly strong in the right moment. But often times you would have multiple missions where the immunity is not "triggered" at all.
Picking an immunity perk against poison an then havbing 3 missions without any vipers makes the high AP cost very harsh imo.
Many other perks will have value every single mission you take that soldier on.
Separation into weak and strong might be a good idea.
A much harder thing to do, but better for balance would be a rework of many of the immunity traits into -->" debuff only last one round" traits.
First lets look at the technical side and how to implement ability cost of every ability in RPGO (even for classes without the UIPromotion.ini) via ini editing. There is an ini file located in the RPGO core mod folder at ../config/RPGO_PromotionScreen/ called "XComPromotionUIMod.ini. This ini file allows you to override any custom class ability costs. like this:
+ClassCustomAbilityCost = (ClassName=UniversalSoldier, AbilityName=InsertAbilityNameHere, AbilityCost=InsertNewAbilityCostHere)
This should make implementing balance changes to AP costs very easy.
What is not so easy though, is finding the correct balance for AP cost. I think we all agree that AP cost should be streamlined and be more consistent. After all, soldier promotions should be exciting moments challenging players to make meaningful choices. In my opinion this should be THE main consideration when balancing ability points. Ability cost must not be so high that you do not even consider picking perks up and vice versa super cheap perks that are basically a no brainer should also be balanced out. Lets say you have a MSGT soldier with normal combat intelligence and he has access to 21 perks (3 full specialization trees), the soldier should probably have access to ~10-14 abilities on average (depending on what you pick and how expensive the perks of the specializations are). To achieve this, a range of 20-30 AP cost seems in order for most perks with strong outlier perks being 35-45 AP.
I will start implementing the proposed balance changes with some slight adjustments and try to streamline the AP cost of every ability first. There can then be smaller adjustments to perks if the general consent is that something feels to expensive / cheap. @Mrvecz Your google documents are a very nice starting point, thank you very much! I will of course credit you in the mod description, once the first changes are released.
There is also the subject of combat intelligence, which we have not yet addressed. Right now every soldier gets 30 AP on level up. I think we should a) look into changing AP gain depending on CI and b) keep CI scaling in mind for balancing AP cost.
Balance wise I would start out with this:
Starting Abilities - 10 AP
This will be most of the LCPL perks then I believe (those are the first abilities you can select)? I am very happy with this idea as it should also help to get most soldiers going power wise which can sometimes be quite hard in RPGO. I feel some LCPLs can be very weak so this should be really good change.
Defensive Abilities - 20 AP
20 AP looks very fine.
Immunity Perks - 25-40 AP
I would strongly suggest looking at immunity perks individually. As @Specter already pointed out there different kinds of immunities (basically - immune to one thing vs. immune to everything vs. damage reduction). I agree that immunity to everything should be expensive and late in the tree, although I find 50 AP a little bit over the top. Yes, those perks invalidate some items you can craft. However, a) only a fraction of your soldiers have access to those perks anyway, so the craftable immunity items still have use and b) if you play this mod with the complete package there are plenty of new resource sinks.
Maybe a system like this would make sense:
Immunity baseline cost = 20 AP
for every immunity kind +5 AP
A full immunity would then cost 40 AP I believe (20 base + 5 fire + 5 posion + 5 acid + 5 mental)
Damage boosting Abilities 30 AP
I would settle for 30AP as a baseline and look into adjusting outlier perks.
Concealment Abilities 30-35 AP
30 for self and 35 squad concealment seems alright.
Gremlin Abilities 15-25 AP
15 for general abilities and 25 for offensive ones seems good for me as well.
Psi Abilities 20-30 AP
20 AP for single target in 30 for splash seems very reasonable.
8) Action economy perks
Things like overdrive, inspire etc... should cost around 25 AP given they are powerful but they kinda depend on your other team mates if they can even utilize it
This category also contains free items or abilities that make abilities cost only 1 AP or none at all (things like Salvo !)
Average perks 20 AP
20 AP as a baseline for average traits seems really good, we can adjust outliers later.
Pistol perks 20 AP
20 AP seems good.
Generally Strong Abilities
"These are category-less, anything that is usually on MSGT should be 40 AP alteast"
I agree.
So super high CI (Which is super rare and i guess would justify being stronger than your other soldiers) would have a whoopin 70 AP to spend which would be enough for strong perk and some defensive perk, or some sort of immunity and 2 minor perks etc....
Which classes for RPGO dont have the master sergeant/brigadier rank ?
shadow ops CombatEngineer
Richards Classe's Door kicker and Pistolier, etc.
It's about classes with few abilities.
It's the specification of the original MOD, so it can't be helped, but I'd be happy if you could adjust it.
I noticed it now, but it may be a mistake in the thread because it is a request to the author.