XCOM 2
RPGO & LWOTC - Compatibility and Balance Patch
Mrvecz 10 Mar, 2022 @ 9:44am
Further rebalancing discussion (Part 1) - Ability tiers and their costs.
Right at this moment, ability costs are all over the place, ever wondered why something like tactical sense is 30 AP, heavy hitter is 40 but something like Guard or Indomitable are 10 AP a pop ?

Its pretty much the result of different mods clashing together but there is a easy way to fix it.



I say its time to normalize all abilities in to multiple tiers

1) Starting and prerequsite perks
These all should cost 10 AP, this contains all perks that are needed to either start your class with (Or to be even able to use a certain item).

Also all bottom tier or really weak perks will be really cheap.

2) Defense perks
If you have alot of experience with LWOTC, you know already that defense has contraproductive effects, you might think that "Oh this high super defense soldier will waste Advents attacks !" but in reality no, Advent will just simply shoot at anyone else but the high defense soldier.

This is why players consider perks like tactical sense as actually a bad pick because it doesnt protect your soldier at all and just shifts targetting at the rest of your team or WORSE it instead encourages Advent to just lob explosives and transforms an attack that can miss to a 100% guaranteed damage.

How do you tank in XCOM 2 ? Simple, have perks that DECREASE your defence so Advent will fire at you, this is how Templars work in LWOTC. Or present a juicy target that can just deflect attacks (stormriders/hoplites) with dodge turning attacks to a miss.

So TLDR defense perks arent powerful in Long War and should cost around 20 AP a pop

3) Immunity perks
Things like bastion, Sixth sense, Mechanical Chasis (immunity to fire) should cost 50 AP a pop so players think twice of buying alot of them and taking one of these will be a large decision as you either have to save up AP by skipping abilities on previous tiers or just take 1 ability on promotion.

There should be a point to use items, hazmat vests, mind shields and pressing one button on promotion and invalidating their existence is too cheap for the rest of the game, with items you need precious corpses, supplies AND item slots.

4) Damage boosting perks
All damage boosting perks should cost 30 - 35 AP atleast because these perks invalidate the point of Dark Events that are suppose to keep up Advents strenght and if you can just stack damage perks you just undoing all the work of things like Alien Conditioning.

5) Concealment perks
Concealment is more powerful in LW2 than in WOTC and some perks become impossibly strong with them, things like +50% aim and crit with saturation fire when concealed ? Wtf is this, let alone if you can just reconceal your machinegunner who can delete massive number of enemies with 1 attack over and over !

They should cost 35 AP if applicable on other team mates, 30 AP for self concealment

6) Gremlin abilities
Given even in base game and with gremlin classes you are expected to have alot of them at once (Given there is a limit to how many gremlin abilities you can cast in one turn and Gremlins can be underwhelming and LWOTC corpse scarcity keeps them in check, double layer)

They should cost 15 abilities a pop, attack gremlin abilities should cost 25 AP (Things like capacitor discharge).

7) Psi abilities
Should cost around 20 AP, splash attacks 30 AP.

8) Action economy perks
Things like overdrive, inspire etc... should cost around 25 AP given they are powerful but they kinda depend on your other team mates if they can even utilize it

This category also contains free items or abilities that make abilities cost only 1 AP or none at all (things like Salvo !)

9) Average perks
Should cost around 20-25 AP

10) Pistol perks
These should cost 20 a pop.

11) STRONG perks
These are category-less, anything that is usually on MSGT should be 40 AP alteast

Of course these numbers are up to debate and you can disagree and provide some counterpoints, that is the point of discussions after all. Hell i am sure i will make some deviations but main objective will be to standardize as many of them as possible. With some basics set up we can further move to phase 2 of advanced rebalancing and focus on how many ability points you actually get given we will have some point of reference.

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And you know the best part ? I aint gona just be the idea guy but i will start rewriting inis with my made up rules of RPGO classes i play with and once i am done i will post the rewritten (i guess via google documents or something like that)

I will be balancing the costs from the view who plays on Legendary w prime reaction Chosen, given thats how you should play RPGO to ever have even remotely balanced experience else XCOM just rolls advent on all other difficulties.
Last edited by Mrvecz; 10 Mar, 2022 @ 12:07pm
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Showing 1-9 of 9 comments
Mrvecz 10 Mar, 2022 @ 9:58am 
Once this is set up, my vision is that if soldier has like 50 AP on promotion (via inteligence), he will be able to learn either 2 defense perks, 1 minor perk

OR 1 DPS perk, 1 defense perk

OR 1 strong ability and 1 minor ability.

Or 5 gremlin abilities.

So investing has some thinking, you must remember that LWOTC lets you run ALOT of soldiers at once so extra AP will be really spread thin so think twice with each upgrade. With more soldiers it also means more oportunities to specialize with each one of them rather than trying to be a strong generalist.
Specter  [developer] 10 Mar, 2022 @ 1:36pm 
heyo!

Thanks for your well thought out points, here is my 2 cents:




1)fully agree. Most of them are quite cheap already though. Good Idea to cull the outliers though.

2) I mainly agree. i dont have that much experience in that area though. Possibly more input needed. I also think the "Tanklin" trees are somewhat broken. Fixing them might be important to balance tanks the right way.

3) I disagree with that point. There is a lot of stuff in the mod that provides immunities of some kind. If that is a good thing might warrant another discussion. But i dont value them as strongly. I would probly tend towards 15-20AP.

4) Around 30 seems sensible.

5) Concealment is quite reliant on your other perks,im not a big fan of the concealment mechanic in general.
You made a good point for some strong combos, so 30+ makes sense i guess.

6) I feel like most Gremlin abilities are quite strong, but dont scale that well with other skills. 15/25 seems sensible.

7) PSI-Balancing is a complete different point in itself. Many of the strong PSI-perks are on the Supersoldier-trees. More data needed here!

8/9/10) I agree

11) agree, but also mostly already the realiiy. Again , probably a good idea to purge the outliers.

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Generally it might be easier to purge some of the worst offending traits first.

I dont have to many hours on the mod-pack yet and i feel the traits are generally "fine".

There is always room for improvment and i commend your efforts.

Thanks a lot for that :)


--incoherent ramble end ---
Mrvecz 10 Mar, 2022 @ 2:00pm 
Originally posted by Specter:
heyo!

Thanks for your well thought out points, here is my 2 cents:


3) I disagree with that point. There is a lot of stuff in the mod that provides immunities of some kind. If that is a good thing might warrant another discussion. But i dont value them as strongly. I would probly tend towards 15-20AP.



------

Generally it might be easier to purge some of the worst offending traits first.

I dont have to many hours on the mod-pack yet and i feel the traits are generally "fine".

There is always room for improvment and i commend your efforts.

Thanks a lot for that :)

Plain out immunities kinda cheapen out other perks, why take perks like blast padding (+50% dr towards explosive) if you can take fortress ?. Or things like self treatment (valkyre class) completely makes things like vipers blood redundant because it gives you immunity to poison, fire AND acid at the same time.

The worst offender in my eyes is the Sixth Sense because aside from being immune to all non direct attacks, it also makes you unhitable by Faceless (they cannot literally damage you).


I guess i value immunities as super powerful as complete damage mitigation with 1 passive ability and no further imput from player as really powerful. Though i guess 50 is too harsh, 40 so its on par with other powerful/end game abilities seems more lenient.
Though my problem is that if they will be too cheap they will be easily stackable and defeat too many tools of Advent at once.

Or i guess it should be split to 2 categories, strong and weak immunities, for example Steadfast from Tank tree gives immunity to stun only which is rather specific and shouldnt cost as much as Sixth sense or Fortress.


With weak immunities costing only 25 AP and strong 35 AP.

I guess thats one point to re-do my list i posted already in the future to make immunities less harsh to pick up.

I will be dissecting traits in future too, outliers like Militia or Veteran already show their ugly heads on my radar for doing way too much and invalidating many other perks with their existence...
Specter  [developer] 10 Mar, 2022 @ 3:14pm 
One thing i like to look at is the number of times a perk is used.

Immunities can be incredibly strong in the right moment. But often times you would have multiple missions where the immunity is not "triggered" at all.
Picking an immunity perk against poison an then havbing 3 missions without any vipers makes the high AP cost very harsh imo.
Many other perks will have value every single mission you take that soldier on.


Separation into weak and strong might be a good idea.

A much harder thing to do, but better for balance would be a rework of many of the immunity traits into -->" debuff only last one round" traits.
wNb  [developer] 11 Mar, 2022 @ 12:31am 
Hey guys, I like the discussion going on! Let me add my 2 cents to all of this.

First lets look at the technical side and how to implement ability cost of every ability in RPGO (even for classes without the UIPromotion.ini) via ini editing. There is an ini file located in the RPGO core mod folder at ../config/RPGO_PromotionScreen/ called "XComPromotionUIMod.ini. This ini file allows you to override any custom class ability costs. like this:

+ClassCustomAbilityCost = (ClassName=UniversalSoldier, AbilityName=InsertAbilityNameHere, AbilityCost=InsertNewAbilityCostHere)

This should make implementing balance changes to AP costs very easy.

What is not so easy though, is finding the correct balance for AP cost. I think we all agree that AP cost should be streamlined and be more consistent. After all, soldier promotions should be exciting moments challenging players to make meaningful choices. In my opinion this should be THE main consideration when balancing ability points. Ability cost must not be so high that you do not even consider picking perks up and vice versa super cheap perks that are basically a no brainer should also be balanced out. Lets say you have a MSGT soldier with normal combat intelligence and he has access to 21 perks (3 full specialization trees), the soldier should probably have access to ~10-14 abilities on average (depending on what you pick and how expensive the perks of the specializations are). To achieve this, a range of 20-30 AP cost seems in order for most perks with strong outlier perks being 35-45 AP.

I will start implementing the proposed balance changes with some slight adjustments and try to streamline the AP cost of every ability first. There can then be smaller adjustments to perks if the general consent is that something feels to expensive / cheap. @Mrvecz Your google documents are a very nice starting point, thank you very much! I will of course credit you in the mod description, once the first changes are released.

There is also the subject of combat intelligence, which we have not yet addressed. Right now every soldier gets 30 AP on level up. I think we should a) look into changing AP gain depending on CI and b) keep CI scaling in mind for balancing AP cost.

Balance wise I would start out with this:

Starting Abilities - 10 AP
This will be most of the LCPL perks then I believe (those are the first abilities you can select)? I am very happy with this idea as it should also help to get most soldiers going power wise which can sometimes be quite hard in RPGO. I feel some LCPLs can be very weak so this should be really good change.

Defensive Abilities - 20 AP
20 AP looks very fine.

Immunity Perks - 25-40 AP

I would strongly suggest looking at immunity perks individually. As @Specter already pointed out there different kinds of immunities (basically - immune to one thing vs. immune to everything vs. damage reduction). I agree that immunity to everything should be expensive and late in the tree, although I find 50 AP a little bit over the top. Yes, those perks invalidate some items you can craft. However, a) only a fraction of your soldiers have access to those perks anyway, so the craftable immunity items still have use and b) if you play this mod with the complete package there are plenty of new resource sinks.

Maybe a system like this would make sense:
Immunity baseline cost = 20 AP
for every immunity kind +5 AP

A full immunity would then cost 40 AP I believe (20 base + 5 fire + 5 posion + 5 acid + 5 mental)

Damage boosting Abilities 30 AP
I would settle for 30AP as a baseline and look into adjusting outlier perks.


Concealment Abilities 30-35 AP
30 for self and 35 squad concealment seems alright.

Gremlin Abilities 15-25 AP
15 for general abilities and 25 for offensive ones seems good for me as well.


Psi Abilities 20-30 AP
20 AP for single target in 30 for splash seems very reasonable.

8) Action economy perks
Things like overdrive, inspire etc... should cost around 25 AP given they are powerful but they kinda depend on your other team mates if they can even utilize it

This category also contains free items or abilities that make abilities cost only 1 AP or none at all (things like Salvo !)

Average perks 20 AP
20 AP as a baseline for average traits seems really good, we can adjust outliers later.

Pistol perks 20 AP
20 AP seems good.

Generally Strong Abilities
"These are category-less, anything that is usually on MSGT should be 40 AP alteast"
I agree.
Last edited by wNb; 11 Mar, 2022 @ 12:31am
Mrvecz 11 Mar, 2022 @ 1:08am 
AP on level up with more streamlined perk costs could be slightly higher on average, like 50 being the average and every combat inteligence level beyond is +5

So super high CI (Which is super rare and i guess would justify being stronger than your other soldiers) would have a whoopin 70 AP to spend which would be enough for strong perk and some defensive perk, or some sort of immunity and 2 minor perks etc....
nisida 24 Mar, 2022 @ 7:53am 
Is it possible to make adjustments to add abilities to classes with abilities less than 7?
Last edited by nisida; 24 Mar, 2022 @ 7:55am
Mrvecz 24 Mar, 2022 @ 8:15am 
Originally posted by nisida:
Is it possible to make adjustments to add abilities to classes with abilities less than 7?

Which classes for RPGO dont have the master sergeant/brigadier rank ?
nisida 24 Mar, 2022 @ 6:01pm 
Valkyrie class Battle Angels
shadow ops CombatEngineer
Richards Classe's Door kicker and Pistolier, etc.

It's about classes with few abilities.

It's the specification of the original MOD, so it can't be helped, but I'd be happy if you could adjust it.

I noticed it now, but it may be a mistake in the thread because it is a request to the author.
Last edited by nisida; 25 Mar, 2022 @ 9:43am
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