After seeing the post from Mwnci Brenin in the comment section regarding Slaaneshi balance, I can't help but to agree with him/her. I'll copy it here.

My thoughts currently are that, for slaneesh, the exalted daemonettes should be 1 special point, hell flayers should be 1 rare point and hell striders (the mortal unit) should be common.

Reason being for the exalted daemonettes they are just one step up from regular daemonettes and are not on par with fiends of slaneesh. For the Hell flayers they are the same as an exalted seeker chariot and it would help differentiate them. Lastly, the mortal hell strider units are very underwhelming (no armour or AP damage makes them incredibly squishy while having low DPS) and it makes the heart seekers stand out as the specialised AP unit.

My current Slaaneshi VH/N campaign is at around turn 80, and I've been skipping Hellstriders entirely because they're definitely not worth a Special point.

Exalted Bloodletters are the strongest infantry in the game and cost 1 special, but all the other daemon factions have their exalted infantry cost 2 special. It seems like they should all cost 1 special or the bloodletters should cost 2 depending on your balancing goals.

I have passed a Khorne and Slaanesh campaign on normal pre-patch 1.1. I haven't gotten that fair with this mod. This was just an observation from the cost tables. Since Black Orks and Chosen cost 2 special also. I guess changing Exalted Bloodletters to 2 special would probably be the most balanced.

Ironguts should be 1 point special or Maneaters moved to rare; not worth it over Maneaters at all right now.

Same issue with Crushers and Mournfang. Also, not sure 3 points vs 2 on GW Crushers will ever be worth it.

Rest seems ok with Ogre Kingdoms.

Some shameless preliminary feedback before even playing:

- I agree with the other posters that all exalted infantry should cost the same, for consistencys sake if nothing else.

Ogres:

- Sabretusks should probably be core, it's a warhound unit for all intents and purposes, I can't see myself fielding these with all the other special choices in the roster

- Both Crusher variants should cost 3 special. The Ironfist Crusher being the same as mournfangs but then the GW being costlier is weird, also the Ironfist variant is just plainly undercosted.

- Ironguts probably should be 1 special? Not super sure on this but they sit between maneaters and bulls so it would make sense.

Cathay:

- Cathay having it's cannon cost less points than the dedicated Artillery faction dwarfes feels wrong. Should be 2 special. And the Fire Rain variant should probably also be bumped up to 3.

Kislev:

- Gryphon Legion only costing 1 Special should be considered. It's their signature unit they are known for.

That's my 2 cents after first studying the list. Will post further feedback after playing a bit.

Some feedback for Cathay and Kislev as those are the only two factions I currently have played (difficulty campaign and battel on very hard)

Cathay (turn200)

Terracottasentinel - reduced to 2 rare cost to make it possible to recruit 1 Sentinel + 2 Dragonguards - halberds + 1 Dragonguard - crossbow (imo neccassary to have proper options against large and heavyamored units, espacially as cathay lacks of earlygame/core anti infantry meleeunits)


Kislev (turn 85)

Iceguard - reduced to 1 special cost

or

Warbearriders - reduced to 2 special cost

in both variants it is possible to recruit 2 Tzarguards + 3 Iceguards + 1 warbearrider to proper deal vs heavyarmored chaoswarriors and physical resistence of demonunits and large units

the Iceguardvariant uses 8 special costs for it so you have 2 specialpoints left for free usage (maybe for griffonlegion as additinal cavallry, depending on their cost)

the Warbearvariant uses the full 10 special cost (need to step down for winged lancers as additional cavallry or using rarepoints for warselds)

and for the game 1 and 2 races (very hard battle dificulty experience)

Empire

Demigryph Knights - reduced to 2 special
Helstorm Rocket Battery - should have the same cost and classification as the firerain rocket launcher from cathay as thei are more or less the same unit
Reiksguard - reduced 1 special

Dwarfs

Cannons - reduced to 1 special
Gyrocopter - reduced to 1special
Organ Guns - maybe classification to special

Vampire Counts

Black Knights - reduced to 1 special
Corps Cart - reduced to 1 special or maybe classification as core

Greenskins

Goblin Rock Lobber - classification to special
Doom Diver Catapult - classification to special

Beastmen

Cygor - reduced to 2 rare (depending on your enemy you may want 2 of them as artillery)

Norsca

Feral Mammoth - reduced ro 1 rare or classififcation to special

Skaven

Warp Lightning Cannon - reduced to 1 rare
Hell Pit Abomination - reduced to 2 rare

High Elves

Eagel Claw Bolt Throwers - classification to special
Flamespire Phoenix - classification to Special and 2 cost

Dark Elves

Shade (Dual weapon) - reduced to 1 special
War Hydra - reduced to 1 rare
Reaper Bolt Thrower - classification to special

Tomb Kings

Sepulchral Stalker - reduced to 1 special (necassary hybrid flankdefense beneath Tomb Guards as solid frontline in lategame)
Ushabti (both versions) - reduced to 1 special (both versions are necassary armor pearcing in lategame)

Vampire Coaast

Mournguls - classification to special and cost 2 special
Roting Leviathan - reduced to 2 rare
Death Shriek Terrorgheist - reduced to 2 rare

Played Slanesh and Kislev, both until turn 100ish on Very Hard / Very Hard .

SLANESH

Demonettes: As mentioned above I think all the exalted infantry variants should cost the same, and I would go for 2 special points for that.
During my campaign It was definitely worth it bringing a few exalted daemonettes, and I'm pretty sure it would be too strong being able to field 10 in an army, if they only cost 1.
I could change my mind on that if I fought more old world factions tho, since a lot of highish tier infantry cost 1 special (temple guards, tomb guard, greatsword). But then again top tier infantry (guards of naggarond, black orks, phoenix guard, etc) rightully cost 2, and I'm not sure the exalted ones are worth that much... The 1,5 option would be nice in this case.

Hellstriders: I agree they are not worth 1 special, should probably be core, in line with other low tier cavalry, like empire knights, winged lancers, darkriders, etc.

Chariots: I'm more of a cavalry over chariots guy, so no feedback on these ones, even tho I will say I got rid of the Hellflayers you start with pretty soon. They didn't seem to be worth, but that could be me being lazy microing them.

Everything else seems fine to me.

KISLEV

In short... I probably wouldn't change anything

Gryphon Legion: a little pricey, but in line with other mid tier cavalry (reiksguard, black knights, chaos knights) so I'm fine with it.

War Bear riders: definitely worth their 3 special points, also in line with demigryphs.

Ice Guards: They could probably go to 1 rare, like sisters of avelorn, but I like them occupying special slots, since it forces me to get elemental bears, little groms or even leopards, that otherwise I would just avoid.
I wouldn't reduce their cost to 1 special for sure tho. 10 of those in an army would be absolutely broken (and boring).


On the side, from previous WH2 experiences

HIGH ELVES

Lothern Sea Guards: for how little counters this unit has, and for how much the AI spams it in the early game with this mod, I would consider making it cost 1 special.

Thank you to those who played and gave feedback.

The following balance changes were made:

- Exalted Letters back to Special 2
- Khorne's Gorebeast Chariot down to Special 1

- Cathay Grand Cannon up to Special 2
- Cathay Fire Rain Rocket Battery to Rare 2

- Ironguts down to Special 1
- Crushers to Rare 2

- Hellstriders to Core.




And that's it for now. I am overall happy with where Kislev has ended up and will likely balance around them. Some of the rosters are a little challenging due to the small number of units in each, but I think things are getting there.

I am not making balance changes to the WH1 or WH2 factions currently. I will consider making some when IME releases; for now I want to focus on the playables.

Really pleased with the hellstrider to core change, thank you. There is a lot of good stuff competing for specials for Slaanesh and I don't think they could compete even at 1 point rather than 2. Great job!

Originally posted by Jonlissla:

After seeing the post from Mwnci Brenin in the comment section regarding Slaaneshi balance, I can't help but to agree with him/her. I'll copy it here.

My thoughts currently are that, for slaneesh, the exalted daemonettes should be 1 special point, hell flayers should be 1 rare point and hell striders (the mortal unit) should be common.

Reason being for the exalted daemonettes they are just one step up from regular daemonettes and are not on par with fiends of slaneesh. For the Hell flayers they are the same as an exalted seeker chariot and it would help differentiate them. Lastly, the mortal hell strider units are very underwhelming (no armour or AP damage makes them incredibly squishy while having low DPS) and it makes the heart seekers stand out as the specialised AP unit.

My current Slaaneshi VH/N campaign is at around turn 80, and I've been skipping Hellstriders entirely because they're definitely not worth a Special point.

I agree with this.

Playing Daemon Prince turn 55, I think that chaos furies are already way too weak to count towards special units I think they should be core. Also Chaos spawn are stupid weak so I will never recruit them with my purple points because bloodletters already perform better. Currently running full bloodletters and daemonettes, with exalted variants to fill up my special slots.

Are plague drones supposed to be 2 rare points? since rots flies are only 1 special it feels like drones should be 2 special points instead:) they are strong, but not same cost as a soul grinder strong imo.

Still playing daemons of chaos, Streltsi as core units while exalted Daemons are double special units? Definitely not balanced, i'd reconsider one of those values probably nerf streltsi they are on the same level as exalted units for sure.

Well, first of all these caps are based on tabletop. Caps in tabletop are not based strictly on power level but on the character of the army as well.

Handgunners are considered core for the Empire in tabletop and this mod because they are a major part of the Empire's army. Streltsi are not only a fundamentally similar unit with fundamentally similar stats, but also Kislev's standing army in the lore. They are definitely core units.

Fundamentally the mod is meant to ensure that army compositions are such that each fight is interesting and, as far as it is possible in a game against AI, challenging. I haven't found core Streltsi to be a problem.


The comparison to exalted deamons is a bit wierd. Exalted Deamon units are costed a fair bit higher, are much more elite units, and are definitely not supposed to be stock standard. As a general convention rule Champions are in the tier above their generic counterparts, which exalted fit.

Hey DF, thanks again for this mod. Just a few thoughts:

Kislev - Tzar Guard I'd move to 2 special points. That would put them equal with other factions' elite infantry (e.g. Greatswords). It would also reflect the fact that Kislev has very good core infantry. Ice Guard I think ought to be 1 rare point. They're basically human Sisters of Avelorn, and that's where they are.

Cathay - Crane Gunners I think would be good at 2 special. That follows the precedent of Jezzails, which they are basically a copy of

Tzeentch - I'd made Flamers 2 special points. They're so damn powerful with AP flame that I'd rank them above similar units like Skaven Warpfire Throwers. Tzeentch already has 2 other Flamer units in rare so I think keeping them as Special is right.

Otherwise I think everything is spot on. Great job.