Crusader Kings III

Crusader Kings III

Weddings Expanded
Ryūichi 22 May, 2022 @ 10:33am
Feedback
Hi Elzephor and thank you for the mod, it looks incredible!

I've tested it a bit and wanted to provide some feedback. I created a new discussion because the post was too long and I would've had to break it into too many comments and spam the comment section, let me know if you want me to delete it so that you can create your own discussion for people to post in.

Sorry about the long post!



Bug Report

Innuendo feast event glitching out

The feast event "Innuendo" (which may be bugged / unproperly weighted at the moment in the base game because it happens more often than other events) bugged out for me. Here's a screenshot

https://i.imgur.com/6tarTpX.png

The only other mods I had installed were Fullscreen Barbershop and Debug Toggle (Even Less Invasive), but this also happened when I tested without them.



Questions

What determines who gets invited?

I noticed that at times I didn't get any option about who to invite, with the only choice being inviting everyone. Is this normal, and what determines it?

If it helps, my character was a custom one (no relatives) and the spouse had alive parents and siblings, but at times with the same setup I did get the option to decide who to invite.



Feedback

Rivalry

In one game my +43 opinion wife (1 compatible traits and no opposing traits) became my Rival because she didn't like that I went for a grandiose wedding. No other events that negatively affected our compatibility happened.

At least to me this seems a bit unforgiving, particularly because Rivalries are pretty basic in the game and with unlanded characters they only result in them plotting to kill you. It feels excessive to eventually murder your spouse just for not liking how you organized the wedding (with them providing no feedback) and no other events which lead to negative opinion.

I'm not sure how you could solve this though. I was thinking that an extra outcome could be created where they get a negative opinion of you for some time, like "Dissatisfied about the wedding" or something along those lines rather than straight up becoming Rivals because the RNG shafted you.

I think Rivalry should be restricted to having multiple wedding events negatively affecting compatibility, high negative opinion and perhaps things like contrasting personality or big age disparity (e.g. you're old and marrying a wife who's very young, they'll obviously not be enthusiastic).


Cheating

You may be already aware of this, but standard Feasts feature a couple of events resulting in cheating / characters having sex and the requirement are lax to say the least, often resulting in your high opinion spouses cheating on you even when they are the honorable type.

I tested this immediately upon installing the mod by having Lustful vassals and marrying a wife that wasn't Chaste (I believe that's the only block the game has, and compatibility between personality isn't a factor like with Seduction schemes), and sure enough they cheated during the feast and became Lover with the vassals.

Now I don't think that's an outcome that should be excluded, and if anything I'd encourage you to add some sort of followup event for busting them and creating hilarity, options, adding nicknames etc.

However it's immersion breaking that your spouse first cheats on you and immediately afterwards they try to make you their Soulmate or tell you stuff like "I promise to treat you with respect and honor" (I believe this is the "None" result for the relationship outcome), even when they have honorable personality.

I'm not sure how you could work this out, but I recommend taking a look at the events in question because they are infamous for creating infidelity (there's been mods that specifically tweak or remove them since the game came out) and it kinda ruins what the mod is trying to accomplishing with relationships.



New Ideas

Loyalty?

The cheating during feast that I described above gave me an idea for extra outcomes.

When no relationship are developed (which I think should actually be made to be the most common outcome since we're talking about people who recently met), a spouse who has a positive opinion of you, wasn't dissatisfied with the wedding and has a honorable personality could gain a modifier making them less likely to cheat on you (e.g. a penalty against Seduction schemes from other characters) or become Chaste.

Conversely, a spouse who is less honorable, was dissatisfied by the wedding, and who doesn't have good opinion of you could be pushed to unfaithfulness, becoming Lustful or being more easily susceptible to Seduction schemes.

What do you think? Is it something that would work from a technical perspective (i.e. could make it without too much effort)?



Primae Noctis?

The post reception event where a relationship is established makes it pretty clear that the newlyweds lay with each other, but I believe there's no actual "had sex with" effect.

I think it'd be cool and fitting to add that to the event with a chance for pregnancy, maybe with an option to turn down your spouse for a hefty opinion penalty or something along those lines.
Last edited by Ryūichi; 22 May, 2022 @ 10:34am
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Elzephor  [developer] 22 May, 2022 @ 6:36pm 
Hi Ryuichi, thanks for such a detailed report! In response to your points,

- The Innuendo

I tested this event on my end, and it seemed to work fine. It's true that vanilla over-weights this one, but it fires just as often as any other event in my case. The only situation I could think of where it would break is if there was no one else at your wedding activity - was that the case?

- What determines who gets invited?

For landed character weddings, you decide who to invite via the "Who Counts As Family" event. In normal cases, this lets you choose between 1) just parents, 2) close family (parents, siblings, and children), or 3) all of the above plus cousins ("invite the lot").

In writing this, I realized I made an error in the option for 2), which used to read "but siblings is too much". In fact it should be cousins.

The logic for this is a bit flawed, because in cases where you have no parents, siblings, or etc but JUST cousins, you only get the 3rd option.

I plan to improve this, but I'm still trying to think of the best solution. I published it as-is because it does work in most cases.

- Rivalry

Sorry to hear you got that outcome! I will note that the rival outcome is made less likely by having compatible traits and positive opinion. But RNG is what it is. I agree though that just one compatibility hit is excessive for a rivalry - I'll look into changing this to maybe requiring 2 negative hits.

- Cheating

Thanks for pointing this out - I think for now I will leave this as it is, because it can ALSO be drama for your spouse to be professing their love while betraying you in secret. Maybe future events could draw out that drama even more, we'll see. I'll look into tweaking the triggers for that event though.

- Loyalty

This is a cool idea! It would require some extra work, so no promises, but I like the "no relationship" outcome having a few different flavors to it.

- Primae Noctis

Good point about the slept together effect! At very least that should be added for the lover and soulmate outcomes.
Elzephor  [developer] 22 May, 2022 @ 7:51pm 
I just pushed an update that fixes the "cousins" typo, and adds primae noctis for the soulmate and lover endings.
Last edited by Elzephor; 22 May, 2022 @ 7:51pm
Tannenzäpfle 23 May, 2022 @ 4:22am 
Could you provide mod version numbering in the change log so that it can always be compared to the translation versions?
Ryūichi 29 May, 2022 @ 12:27am 
Thank you Elzephor for the earlier explanation of mechanics and for the latest update!

I continued testing the mod and it's for me a fantastic addition to the game, so I wanted to provide some extra feedback if you can spare the time:


Bugs

A couple of times the "Exposed Affair" event bugged out for me, see the screenshot below

https://i.imgur.com/k9uVZHg.png

This is rare from my experience (like twice in 100+ marriages I think) so I don't think it's a pressing issue, but maybe something you want to take a look at down the line.


Balance

I noticed two potential issues balance wise:

1) The AI being what it is, it cripples itself financially hosting weddings even when they shouldn't

I'm not sure if it's something you can do, but given that the AI already isn't much of a challenge in CK3, I wouldn't mind heavily reducing or straight up removing the cost of the wedding for them (AI) only

2) The ability to continuously marry people for feasts is really powerful for the player

Feasts are balanced by having a high cost early in the game, and later on when you can always afford them, there's a 5 years cooldown.

With the mod, get later enough into the game and you can continuously marry random people (the game gives you a constant stream of guests as they get recruited) and host feasts non-stop. This easily gets rid of Stress, lets you become a Legendary Reveler in little time and also stack powerful modifiers (I had "Life Reaffirmed" modifier from adulthood to death lol).

I'm not sure how much balance is a concern given what the mod is about, but I was thinking that an optional rule / setting to just disable courtier weddings (i.e. you'd still be able to with relatives) could address this while still giving player the option to choose.


Misc stuff / Potential Improvements

Not always invited to children's weddings

I noticed that I'm not always invited to weddings of my children, even when they or their spouse are indeed hosting one.

I know this is by design as rulers decide what to do, but on top of it being disappointing not being invited to your kid's wedding, I also noticed that it doesn't seem to reflect personality much.

You'd think it'd be Greedy, Avaricious, Callous etc rulers not inviting you, or maybe ones that dislike you, but it seems to happen even with rulers who are for example Generous or Just, or even that are Friends with you.

Is there anything you could do to improve this? I'll add that when I tested this I made sure they always had plenty of gold to host the wedding, so that shouldn't be a factor


Re:cheating

I noticed that on top of the issue I mentioned in my previous post (personality being completely disregarded when cheating is established), incest also becomes rampant.

What I observed is that most times it's just close relatives being invited to weddings, and what often happens is that siblings are the only characters eligible to get paired for the cheating events, which ends up creating too many incestuous relationships. In the last game I was testing I had 3 brothers hook up with 3 of their sisters!

What made this absolutely sclerotic was then the fact that after cheating with their own Catholic siblings (so incest was taboo for their faith), they also became Soulmates with their spouse, despite having a very honorable personality.

As I mentioned earlier this is just because of how lax the triggers for those feast events are, the mod has zero fault here.

I think even implementing very simple blocks to those events (e.g. if they are Just or Honest they can't be eligible for the cheating events) would improve things a lot here without requiring too much effort, so I hope you eventually manage to tweak these events


Sleep with effect to standard outcome?

Thank you for adding the "sleep with" effect to Soulmate and Lover relationship! Do you think it should be added to the neutral / no relationship too?

I was thinking that it'd be great to have the option there. After all along with securing alliances producing heirs was the main goal of marriages at the time, and spouses being lovers was the exception rather than the rule


Extra pre-wedding events?

Not sure if it's something already in the pipeline, but I was thinking the mod could benefit a lot from having a couple extra pre-weddings events to rotate among them (i.e. not all of them happening each time).

I really enjoyed how fitting it was that my Arrogant father-in-law complained about how things were being arranged, but that event seems to happen all the time even when relatives aren't exactly the "complaining" type.

I was thinking it'd be great if down the line you managed to add a couple of those events based on prominent traits. Like, a Zealous relative could ask you for a more austere weddings (netting you some Piety at the cost of Prestige or Gold), a Generous one could ask you to invite the commoners (costing you Prestige but giving Popular Opinion or Control) and things of that nature etc

Such small events would not only bring variety but also help you bond with relatives and make them more memorable, which is something the game really lacks at the moment.

Sorry once again for the long post!
Tannenzäpfle 17 Jun, 2022 @ 5:44am 
Compatibility with Choose Throne Room or at least Free Camera would be great
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