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Avorion >  Workshop > LM13's Workshop > [2.5.2+] Xavorion: eXtended Avorion > Discussions
[2.5.2+] Xavorion: eXtended Avorion
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OveglFhzl 23 Jun, 2024 @ 7:06am
Review of Xavorion eXtended after 2 playthroughs (1/2)
Intro and My Style of Play
After seeing a fair amount of people recommending this mod in this small community, I'm finally trying this mod myself. What also motivated me to try out Xavorion: eXtended was Snopzet's post of their Feedback after a "complete" playthrough. discussion thread. "I've never expected anyone to finish eXtended playthrough. As far I know, you're a second person that did so." Even though the general community for Avorion isn't that big, I'm amazed that of the percentage of people that have tried out this mod have somehow only 2 people have noted that they have completed a playthrough using this mod. I mean, there are probably more people that have completed this mod without sharing a post or YouTube vid about it, but I'm just astounded by the lack of people who have reached the... "endgame" for Xavorion eXtended.

I'm more of a min-maxer player who has more experience in arcade-styled games than strategy/rts games (more towards Everspace than X4). So the whole using multiple ships for a fleet and using strategy mode isn't really something I personally use most of the time in a vanilla playthrough. I've got to the point in many vanilla playthroughs that I really know what I'm doing. Insane difficulty on vanilla has got to a point for me that it is an absolute joke, even from 'Danger: a large wave of xsotan has appeared!'. Pre-barrier my staple is; 1 player ship, 1 scout ship with Explorer captain (so that I'm not jumping into anything dangerous. Also renders all radar-related subsystems vanilla or xAvorion completely useless to me), and 1 trader ship doing the manual procure/sell method for credits. I personally would only start mining ships for a mining fleet once I get Avorion knowledge, when I start establishing a base at one of the sectors surrounding 0,0 in a vanilla playthrough. Personal references for a rough estimate from vanilla; Xanion knowledge - 4/5hrs, Avorion knowledge - 20hrs~. , maxed rift ship to farm Into The Swarm - 100hrs~.



First Playthrough: Normal

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3273569133

First hours experiencing Xavorion eXtended/Pre-Barrier
xAvorion subsystems requiring A LOT of energy:
  • The ratio of required energy/energy generated you need for your ships is insane compared to vanilla game.
  • The locking of movement stats to subsystem slots (the whole class system-thing) making holding down spacebar-boosting very easy to still run out of energy.

High-volume Delivery quests:
  • Seems to be the best method to make credits very early game.
  • If lucky can find a b2b or even b3b 1mil+ high-volume delivery quest chain.
  • Initially, I thought that these were extremely overpowered in terms of the amount of credits that are rewarded.
  • Can make manual procure/sell redundant if you prefer actively playing game than afk.

Scouting:
  • As noted numerous times before in many discussion threads, it's still bugged.
  • Having to manually right-click every. single. sector. to reveal details while having your ship within range is so annoying and so time consuming.
  • Notes may duplicate.
  • I'm too lazy to manually fly to every sector just to uncover the amount of ??? still listed even after scouting a large chunk of sectors.
  • My last XSTN subsystem was the smuggler-related one since it couldn't properly leave captain's notes. Sectors with '??? + Shipyard' are either; pirate base or smuggler's sector. Gamble on death or not each time jumping into one.

Building Knowledge (pre-barrier):
  • The randomness is okay?...
  • Personally as a min-maxer, ogonite knowledge is optional. If you run into ogonite knowledge in a shipyard/resource depot then cool I guess.
  • Because it's random, can get cucked if you can't get a lower building knowledge (which I did get cucked not getting naronite knowledge for 3hrs. Had found trin and xanion knowledge already for a while).

Other notes pre-barrier:
  • asteroid mines nerfed to hell. not even worth setting them up (only eventaully had 2 asteroid mines compared to vanilla average playthrough of 20+)
  • 5hr 2min found all building knowledge till xanion
  • since mining rework for xAvorion, it's actually worth it to do mining fleet pre-barrier
  • procure 800 research data for 2 rift items; rift Bulwark, rift Reviving Guardian
  • movement stats locked to subsystem slots/the whole class system is so aids > 10 slots and so slowwwww
  • xsotan swarm actually boarding station looks cool (on npc factions, not applicable for player since still relatively easy to pop)
  • high-volume delivery quests do not correctly respect if the player has access past the barrier or not (also vice-versa just getting into the barrier)
  • numbers a lot higher of course than vanilla game
  • the 'smarter ai' is funny to see, bits of the AI jumping out of the sector
  • object detector (which normally is a MUST first mins vanilla playthrough) is nerfed to the absolute ground in xAvorion.
  • when you have an object detector installed upon jumping into a sector, "Valuable Objects Detected" is shown, however when you then ping for a detection it says "Nothing found here"???????
  • need to fly within range of the asteroid/secret stash before it shows on the radar. Then what's the point of the object detector???

Inside the barrier/Endgame
  • 32hrs for avorion knowledge
  • 12 slots movement so bad might as well be made out of stone. so slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
  • station founding looks so bland? huh? can't do the whole 'factorio' in xAvorion
  • lack of turret subsystems for stations
  • own Resource Depot can only sell resources for the noted sector materials only
  • researching stuff doesn't respect tech lvl of sector very well
  • transfer crew better than vanilla game. 1.5km xAvorion > 0.5km vanilla
  • combat fighters have slightly better than vanilla. 16km max than the absolutely pathetic vanilla 3.5km range
  • odd inventory sorting order; M4 Hardpoints > M6 Hardpoints > M2 Hardpoints

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3273392417

I've unsubscribed and re-subbed to all related xAvorion mods but still only 2 tabs of stations to found? In my almost 3k hours I've barely scratched the surface of stations in vanilla game, the absence of most of the factorio side makes it no point in having trillions of creds.

Turret Factories owned by player:
  • Tech 51/52 doesn't respect turret factory. Only up to tech 50.
  • Can be screwed over only rolling ogonite turrets in ogo/avo sectors.
  • Next to no variety in rolling turrets > no point in having billions of creds.
  • More cost of ingredients is nice, but actual cost of the turret itself is laughably cheap > no point having trillions of creds. Most expensive one is only at 13mil per turret???? Expected at least 500mil+ cost.
  • In Insane playthrough using the exact same kind of turrets. Absolutely no variety at all in the endgame.

Bugs:
  • Both fidget and XSTN Energy boss can spawn being immune to any kind of damage. Then as it takes too long to kill them they will jump out.
  • Hangar Bay: Extension subsystem not recognized for Simultaneous Mining/Salvaging. Requires at least a vanilla squadron subsystem. xAvorion ones become additive from the XSTN AI's 4 (or any rift ones).
  • Whenever you create a new ship, you may not be able to rotate the ship at all. Need to exit to drone and re-enter ship so that it can move.

https://steamhost.cn/steamcommunity_com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3273706125

Screenshot of bugged Fidget shown above.


Rifts
  • As someone's who's not normally strategy-mode player, rift missions is pretty much the only time I use strategy mode most of the time, sniping ships.
  • Ship so painfully slow to do any of kind rift mission.
  • Either have a ship with not enough subsystem slots + shield blocks, but actually able to fly OR just camp in the protection bubble sniping the entire mission.
  • So for missions where you actually have to move it takes 30mins+ to complete 1 rift mission with a maxed rift ship.
  • From Snopzet's discussion thread about a bug where more than 1 xsotan wave spawns in at the beginning of the rift mission seems to be no longer present. Spawning seems to be as per normal.
  • Almost 100% chance of not being able to do any missions with Wormhole Generator, as the xsotan who are attracted to it like moths to light, the Wormhole Generator is knocked faster than your ship can fly.

xsotan attracted to wormhole generator
> 20mins+ doing Into The Swarm all 10 waves
> knocks to 1000m/s+
> rift ship max speed only 700-800m/s
> waste of ♥♥♥♥♥ time
> alt+f4
> lose all rift progress and time
> jump back to rift sector which takes 30mins+
> repeat suffering

Better to just procure Rift Research Data and research instead. Not worth doing rift missions since just moving/flying around is already dreadful enough.

Mining & Salvaging Ships
Numbers are a lot bigger in xAvorion.
Just like vanilla game, still need 6 rows to 100% Simultaneous Mining. 4 rows to 100% Simultaneous Salvaging.
Unlike vanilla game where you need some mining turrets on ship along with mining fighters, absolutely no need for mining turrets. Just combat turrets to reduce ambush chance.
Salvaging ship's fighters have enough omicron for the game to think the ship can defend itself. No combat turrets required at all. No salvaging turrets required at all.
So any Unarmed Turret-related subsystems becomes useless.

Other notes endgame:
  • 15 slot ships are so poor in movement stats. At least can invest in more shield blocks instead.
  • Endgame so bland. No need a lot of cred for; factorio, turret rolling, buying subsystems/turrets.
  • Endgame creds pretty much only used for paying crew.
  • XWG and Corrupt AI very easy. Did it with main ship + 1 tank. Could honestly solo it.
  • Just like vanilla game, Xsotan Invasion event is just a huge nuisance. Very ez. Creates an incredibly annoying laggy mess. Also just like vanilla game, NOT RECOMMENDED. DO NOT KILL XWG.
  • Normal difficulty, the 'Large wave of xsotan has appeared' event is comfortably annihilated by ships patrolling home base (weakest ships on patrol at base is Trader ship with 1mil/500mil (hull/shield) w/ 5mil+ omicron.
  • Somtimes it's more efficient to collect loot in your default drone than your ship that basically cannot move.
  • Because some normal/petty subsystems/turrets are worth using, it is more time-consuming to not auto-research.
  • Most vanilla turrets that are dropped by the XSTN bosses can't be researched at all. Have to manually one-by-one in inventory delete them if useless.
  • For some reason vanilla force turrets can be researched.
  • Behemoths are weak. Their subsystems are redundant.
  • Stopped playing Normal diff on 126hrs.

The incredibly poor movement stats on 15-slot ships almost made me quit playing xAvorion out of frustration. Just rotating a ship takes a whole minute. Flying takes forever. Really demotivated me to not try it out a second time on a harder difficulty. Makes me appreciate vanilla game just flying around. Flying in vanilla is just straight up... fun, compared to xAvorion.

reducing ambush chance bare min. for mining fleet: (normal) 800k hull 30mil shield 30k omicron 900k hull 12mil shield 61k omicron 1.1mil hull 18mil shield 48k omicron Normal: 5hr 2min found all building knowledge till xanion seems very rng/random dependant 32hr avorion knowledge 36hr establish base near 0,0 48hr first bil credits ended Normal on 126hrs. nothing to do endgame no point turret rolling nor factorio

More in Part 2...
Last edited by OveglFhzl; 23 Jun, 2024 @ 7:12am
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Showing 1-5 of 5 comments
LM13  [developer] 23 Jun, 2024 @ 8:35am 
Many thanks. I really appreciate time you've spent on this. I did expect min-maxing players to be, well, less interested.
Primary goal of X was to extend active play ( as you've noticed with High-volume delivery missions ),
while idling and maxing out stats were - well, taken into account, but when a choice had to be made - active gameplay was a priority.

I'll try to address some stuff, and look at other issues in future updates.

Combat balance
- Your feedback appeared just after Combat Rebalance update, seems that a lot of it has been adrressed.
- Xsotan, as stated in encyclopedia, were not reworked due to lack of time. Some can be very dangerous, some easy.
- Rift missions - since DLCs are closed for modding - some issues are impossible to fix.

Immune ships jumping out
- This is not AI behaviour, but spawn error
- Either mission, boss, or mod has some conflict with X, which I did not know about
- During that encounter - logs should spam pink errors, also serverlog should contain information about what went wrong
- If that's not a DLC encounter/mission - it can be fixed, I just need some technical information on the issue

Class System / Energy
- Previous combat balance failed to support Class/Role system
- Flying just a single ship, which gets larger and larger will feel worse than Vanilla
- Overall, gameplay has been based around those limitations - it is a completely different game in that regard
- There are boosters upgrades to increase top speed - but M6-M8 ships should be slow and long-range by design

Scouting - [???]
- (Partially) Not a bug, those stations dont exist at scout time - only after visting
- For that reason, maps/scout order were meant to give general idea of sectors
- Scout ships (M1) have a role here, those can be order-chained to exlopre sectors of interest
- ( That's an example of active gameplay vs. automated, mentioned at the beginning )

Object Detector
- Not nerfed, it scales with other scanners. If you're using pure detector - then yeah, its slow and has low range
- That is a theme with all detectors, if you want best scanners - that needs more upgrades and/or Core module Scout
- Detection range scales to make it worth having separate ship for mostly that purpose

Station Founding
- It's based on sector - every economy type has different stations to build
- Still, player stations did not receive full overhaul, due to lack of time

Captain missions
- Wasnt aware of ambush chance issues
- Missions have minor issues in general, but amount of code in them makes that a no-go zone
- By design, pre 2.0 order loops were intended way of gameplay - though removing missions is optional


Vanilla turrets & upgrades should not appear in Xavorion, but for some reason they(rarely) do. No idea where those come from.
#1
OveglFhzl 24 Jun, 2024 @ 7:02am 
Thanks for the comments. I was so focused on finishing up the notepad notes that I was so into thinking of everything I disliked about it.

One thing I forgot to mention that I actually liked, was the fact that Xavorion eXtended on harder difficulties is actually hard for an actual challenge. I did have it in my notes, but did not formally say it in my conclusion in Part 2. Vanilla on Insane difficulty is an absolute joke once you actually know how to play the game. Xavorion Normal is about on vanilla Insane++ in my opinion. So Insane Xavorion is actually nice for an actual challenge.

Originally posted by LM13:
Primary goal of X was to extend active play ( as you've noticed with High-volume delivery missions ),

I forgot to mention that as I initially found it extremely overpowered, imo you should nerf the reward amount by about 15-20%. Sometimes being extremely lucky with b3b/b4b 2-3mil quests seem a bit too much actually hahaha


Originally posted by LM13:
Combat balance
- Rift missions - since DLCs are closed for modding - some issues are impossible to fix.

Oh err, what I was referring to was that whatever bug that Snopzet had in their post. I think you misinterpreted what I said. There are no bugs with rifts anymore. They're working as intended. :steamthumbsup:


Originally posted by LM13:
Immune ships jumping out
- This is not AI behaviour, but spawn error
- Either mission, boss, or mod has some conflict with X, which I did not know about
- During that encounter - logs should spam pink errors, also serverlog should contain information about what went wrong
- If that's not a DLC encounter/mission - it can be fixed, I just need some technical information on the issue

I'm actually trying to replicate in this bug to get to you. It's the 'very last' thing I'll do for Xavorion eXtended mod. Very random bug and also relatively rare to occur. Will share the logs when I do see it.

Originally posted by LM13:
Class System / Energy
- There are boosters upgrades to increase top speed - but M6-M8 ships should be slow and long-range by design

Err "long-range by design" sounds very alien to me. As once I get tens of a single turret I apply that to almost all of my ships. If I reach endgame rolling 500k+ dps plasma/electric pulse turrets, I'm placing that on every. single. ship. Nice and cheap, nice and small armed slot count, great range. Great versatile for all and any kind of ship.

Originally posted by LM13:
Scouting - [???]
- Scout ships (M1) have a role here, those can be order-chained to explore sectors of interest
- ( That's an example of active gameplay vs. automated, mentioned at the beginning )

This is the biggest HUH in both of your replies. I... I'm sorry WHAT? M1-class (3 slot) ship not only going one-by-one sector manually scouting (some) of the 1 million sectors in a galaxy playthrough. Not only that, but the thought of a 3-slot "M1-Scout' in both Normal and Insane difficulty doing your scouting for the majority of the sectors in early-mid game... That is a BIG NOPE. Only limiting your ship's hull and shield within 3 slots, even on Normal vanilla difficulty... I am not comfortable even on vanilla's easier difficulties with basically a starter ship's stats both outside the barrier.

Trying to think from another perspective... I guess being a small scout ship I guess it's very easy to replicate the scout ship in case it gets destroyed. For subsystem setup loadout, 1 of the 3 subsystem slots is definitely an M6 Hardpoint to have a coax turret to give it at least 1mil+ omicron for the game to 'simulate' having enough omicron to think it has some fighting chance despite being next-to-no-stats. You need a captain, which then risks that captain being lost, then probably imo Core Module: Defender and Engine: Feedback. Which, still imo is laughably nothing in terms of stats for Xavorion.


Originally posted by LM13:
Station Founding
- It's based on sector - every economy type has different stations to build
- Still, player stations did not receive full overhaul, due to lack of time

Ah, I see. Thank you. Guess part of the factorio side is present in Xavorion. (Also been checking it out myself a bit)


Originally posted by LM13:
Captain missions
- Wasnt aware of ambush chance issues
- Missions have minor issues in general, but amount of code in them makes that a no-go zone
- By design, pre 2.0 order loops were intended way of gameplay - though removing missions is optional

"ambush chance issues" Errr please clarify on this? I had... no issues on ambush chances at all? Working as intended.

I did not play Avorion before 2.0, so I don't understand all the disappointment is from the 1.0 looping is about. I did try out the 1.0 looping mod myself, but was too stupid to even know how to 1.0 loop LOL. I'm just used to what I know the 2.0 way xD
Reason why in the images I've updated in Part 2 I don't have 1.0 looping mod. Am too dumb to understand how to use it.


Originally posted by LM13:
Vanilla turrets & upgrades should not appear in Xavorion, but for some reason they(rarely) do. No idea where those come from.

Errr... just like vanilla game, in the endgame; I leave game on afk at Research Station at base. Periodically every hour or so I do the loop with main ship of; from base (close to 0,0) jump to get XSTN Energy > XSTN Unarmed > Also buy a Hyperspace Interrupter while I'm using the trader guild beacon > XSTN Brotherhood > XSTN AI > jump back to base > spawn Fidget to kill > back to afk at Research Station. (this is also where the very rare bug occurs of XSTN Energy and Fidget bosses may spawn in immune)

To me this loop has been the 'staple' across thousands of hours across all of my 9 playthroughs now in Avorion. Every single time I do this 'loop', to me it equals the subsystems required for either 1 miner or salvager ship I can add to their respective fleets when I'm not lazy. It's the reason why I've been able to get vanilla special turrets (the ones with red text at the bottom) so often.
#2
OveglFhzl 28 Jun, 2024 @ 6:48am 
After about 15+ hrs testing to see if I can replicate the 'Immune to any damage' bug. Doing what I usually do of; XSTN Energy > XSTN Unarmed > XSTN Brotherhood > XSTN AI > Fidget. Since the bug only affected Mad Lab boss and Fidget I cut it down to only those two on loop.

List of mods during Xavorion average gameplay: - All Xavorion eXtended related-mods - Always Running Captain Commands - Turret Factory Tweak: Add Exotic and Legendary Blueprints - Factory Overview - Rifted Shop Restock Button - Boss Cooldown Timer + Changes ReUpload - T3 Captains at stations


Testing bug after the 'completed' playthrough - All Xavorion eXtended related-mods - Boss Cooldown Timer + Changes ReUpload - Invasion Remover

Seems like the immune bug is coming from one of the mods used above. However from the list of mods for post-playthrough testing, there is actually a small chance that the MAD Lab boss fails to correctly spawn.


It has been overall a nice experience at least with Xavorion eXtended, seeing what this overhaul offers even with how I usually play the game. This mod offers an actual challenging experience compared to vanilla.
#3
Snopzet 14 Jul, 2024 @ 7:21am 
Just saw your post, and I wanted to share some thoughts, too. Regarding the poor top speed of large ships... as LM13 mentioned already, there is a booster system! I think I have it in my loadout I shared with you. You'll still be a flying brick, but one with a very high top speed xD (3.000 - 4.000 m/s) It makes rift missions easier, and you can outrun everything if something goes wrong.

Concerning the Wormhole Generator: I think I had this issue only once. I'm not sure why it was so annoying for you, but it might heavily depend on the play style. While doing Into the Swam, I usually drop the generator at the end (so no Xsotan accidentally jumps to normal space), and since I'm sniping most ships, nothing gets close to me and the generator.

Looting with your late game ship... With the booster system, it is OK, but I always deploy 3 - 4 squadrons with the loot command.
#4
OveglFhzl 16 Jul, 2024 @ 4:34am 
Originally posted by Snopzet:
Just saw your post, and I wanted to share some thoughts, too. Regarding the poor top speed of large ships... as LM13 mentioned already, there is a booster system! I think I have it in my loadout I shared with you. You'll still be a flying brick, but one with a very high top speed xD (3.000 - 4.000 m/s) It makes rift missions easier, and you can outrun everything if something goes wrong.

Concerning the Wormhole Generator: I think I had this issue only once. I'm not sure why it was so annoying for you, but it might heavily depend on the play style. While doing Into the Swam, I usually drop the generator at the end (so no Xsotan accidentally jumps to normal space), and since I'm sniping most ships, nothing gets close to me and the generator.

Looting with your late game ship... With the booster system, it is OK, but I always deploy 3 - 4 squadrons with the loot command.

Eurgh, dedicating a subsystem slot just for more top speed. Also it isn't the top speed that is the problem, it's acceleration and just movement. Another problem is that these subsystems give more downsides to another aspect to your flying experience, knee-capping it even further.

Even just talking about it, reminding me of Xavorion eXtended's movement is making me frustrated again.

Wormhole Generator, for me it was insanely frustrating. It seemed like 99 times out of 100 that the nearby xsotan that spawned in, would knock the wormhole generator faster than I can rotate my ship and boost in the direction it is knocked in.
#5
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