Zhatan should be potentially moved over towards the Western Part of the Darklands. Aka Blasted Wastes.. The only reason he's currently in The Volary is CA desperately trying to have Chorfs somewhere that ISN'T the badlands.

By moving him to the Blasted Wastes he's much closer to Naggrund which is lore friendly for him and it gives him the unique option to immediately start fighting the Western Dwarfs. Something none of the Chorfs actually can do currently!

Astragoth fights Orcs and Kislev, Drazhoath fights Orcs, Elves, Ogres. Draz DOES have to kill a minor Dwarf faction but that minor is kinda shared prey between multiple factions. Not to mention Draz has bigger fish to fry immediately upon spawning.

Of course Zhatan currently fights Chaos + Cathay as there's little reason to go into the Mountains.

I feel this gives the Badlands a stronger identity in being typically controlled 100% by Chorf LLs and serves to ensure they're much closer to Canon. For Player interaction (Especially if you're Dwarfs) it'll be quite the venture to try penetrating into Chorf territory.

There isn't really anywhere else left for him to be placed that'd be remotely lore accurate or useful gameplay wise.

Also if I am correct Blasted Wastes has an oil deposit? Or am I crazy?

Edit: Bonus Reason for moving Zhatan away from Cathay. Bro is literally kicking a Western Dwarf. Why is he the FURTHEST from any actual Dwarfs? (There is literally NO Dwarfs near Cathay.)

Edit 2: In regard to people who enjoy his current Startpos. I'll point out again with Skarbrand+Azazel in the area, it'll be much more cramped for him and I'm pretty sure players would equally enjoy playing a Chaos Dwarf faction which...actually fights Western Dwarfs before turn 30 without rushing and ignoring serious threats.

It'd be important to replace his starting Landmark obviously since it's important to his economy starting out.

You raise excellent points, actually my first reaction to seeing Zhatan's startpos was thinking, "so just leave a big hole in the chorf empire?" which is where the vampire at silver pinnacle and goblins below are. Just minor faction trash. This usually forces chorfs (the other 2 LL's) to turn inwards at the start of the game and take control, but if the AI is dumb and doesn't do this, they get destroyed from being attacked from all angles.

So with Zhatan in the wastes, it basically means chorfs have to spend the first 40 turns consolidating their empire before going on the offensive. Personally, I don't think this is unreasonable, but, the AI does struggle with this. I attempted to "encourage" Astragoth to head south (and not kill his norscan ally) by starting these two with a trade pact, and it seems to be working.

Zhatan AI on the other hand has no reliable ally. He's dueling Grimgor and usually gets spanked because chorf AI isn't very good, and gimgor is a better lord than Zhatan. The big problem here is Kholek, who sits in base for 20 turns or more. I'm really tired on fact that Kholek AI never seems to go to war with Grimgor and wastes so many turns in base. I believe I will make Kholek a military ally of Zhatan, because I'm at a loss at what else could be tried. Of course I will test this first.

I don't think Zhatan has a hard time expanding into the mountains of mourn. Underway is a big advantage here. And since Khorne starts at war with the bastion, it's rare for him to go anywhere else. Zhatan is designed to form a reliable partner with whoever can beat the bastion (since I gave Zhatan has diplomatic contact with bastion). Normally, if Kholek AI worked, since Kholek starts with a non-aggro pact with Zhatan, then Kholek would go to war with grimgor 9 times out of 10. However Kholek AI is bugged, and my potential solution of military alliance is a hail mary to get Kholek moving again.

Finally, when considering how Zhatan as player would be, it would be goblins, orcs, skaven, and then dwarfs. It would be very WH1 and not much different from Astragoth. Also, keep in mind that Drazoath also goes to war with dwarves if he survives as well. Drazoath would actually get to go to war with dwarves much sooner if Zhatan starts at Silver Pinnacle. But overall the campaign might feel like every other chorf campaign. It would need to be sp\iced up to work imo. And what would be the best way to do that?

Also, there is a serious risk of causing ordertide by moving Zhatan, if he goes to war with the Greenskins before the Dwarfs, then the Chorfs actually end up helping dwarfs. You'd have to make Zhatan start with trade agreement with skarsnik or something. Empire would also benefit if Azhag had a powerful enemy to his east.

Landmark stays for lore reasons. Silver pinnacle starts with gemstones so it's still a potential good start.

I've noticed Kholek's AI is bi-polar at best as playing Grimgor has him attack you on his own volition. Likewise I believe Grimgor attacks you as well if you play Kholek. But these two just don't fight for some reason!

As for the landmark, I only mentioned to swap it because the Volary doesn't actually have the Chorf-exclusive landmark for any other reason than it being Zhatan's starting position. (Correct me if I'm wrong but there's no lore here for the Drill locations. They're pretty much where-ever the LL's spawn in. Hence my suggestion to move it to where-ever you might move Zhatan. Ironically enough him starting at the Volary is pretty silly from a lore perspective to begin with considering what's there in Realm of Chaos (ROC isn't usually the most lore accurate but it's pretty consistent for Demon starts funnily enough.)

While it's a bit of a toss-up, truthfully speaking Skarnik's spawn doesn't matter much anymore. In my own experiences with recent patches Skarsnik usually gets stuck fighting Thorgrim forever or just dies to him. In the rare event that Thorgrim dies, it's a pretty disappointing game since usually all the Dwarfs end up dying too. So I'm not actually all too concerned about the idea of Skarsnik being backdoored by Zhatan as unless a person plays Skarnik, he usually doesn't get far.

As for Azhag, it's a serious concern there but currently it's an RNG roll on if Astragoth goes and starts attacking him so again in my opinion it's acceptable potential losses for Azhag to deal with Zhatan.

With your goal of having Chaos fight each other until a victor is found, it's pretty relevant meanwhile to have Broken Wheel have that province up north. Gives Skarbrand and Azazel players a potential new conquest (and also gives Kholek players worthwhile expansion target too that was otherwise lost when Zhatan spawned in there.)

Meanwhile Blasted Wastes has consistently been an awkward area to attack. No player really spawns near it and it's inhabited by one of the most annoying AI to kill in the game as well. It's another reason why I figure Zhatan would be best moved there. (Lore-wise maybe he's clearing out Greenskin and Vampire riff-raff for his Master?)

And to be on the same page, when you state it'd take Chorfs 40 turns to consolidate. Are you implying Confederating one another? Because in my own mostly vanilla playthroughs (vanilla as far as unit selection goes since new patch) the Chorfs overperform pretty well. At least Astragoth/Draz, as I keep playing Zhatan too much to get a sample size for him.

As finally to address the points about similar playthroughs to Astragoth/Draz in certain areas. To that I'll concede that Zhatan's enemies WOULD become more similar to his other two LL's. That much is true as it'd switch from Greenskins, Ogres, Demons, and Cathay to Vampires, Greenskins, and Dwarfs primarily. But to that I'll say that I doubt many people WANT to fight Demons when they play Chorfs. Demons/Chaos in general are the last factions Chorf players should be /forced/ to fight as they're the ONLY factions which naturally align with Chorfs diplomatically.

So I'll make the additional argument that while you're right, there's HIGHER chances of Ordertide. At the same time Chaostide has the benefit of Zhatan not spending the first 40+ turns just fighting Ogres, Grimgor, and potentially major Demon lords. It's worth noting Skrag and Goldtooth both are in a hard position now since the Mountains of Mourn can be a bit of a battle royale. So removing a lord from there that currently ONLY really has the option to go into the Mountains now is a distinctly positive thing.

All in all, I understand your choice to keep him there in the end if you do. But I feel overall it'd be a much, MUCH better alternative to send him to the Blasted Wastes and put Chorf-presence on the map where it should be canonically compared to kinda forcing him into a corner of the map squished together with 3 other LL's now. (Kholek, Azazel, Skarbrand) and 4 if you include Grimgor. Skrag's also pretty close to Zhatan too now. Comparatively to Blasted Wastes where the closest LL's are Azhag and Skarsnik. There's also potentially the other Chorf minor which Zhatan might end up killing too. But that's usually gonna be a player's action.

Tiny edit: I wasn't referring to the Hobgoblin Landmark, was referring to the Drill landmark!

I'll admit I even forgot about the Hobgoblin landmark there, my bad.

"As for the landmark, I only mentioned to swap it because the Volary doesn't actually have the Chorf-exclusive landmark for any other reason than it being Zhatan's starting position. (Correct me if I'm wrong but there's no lore here for the Drill locations. They're pretty much where-ever the LL's spawn in. Hence my suggestion to move it to where-ever you might move Zhatan. Ironically enough him starting at the Volary is pretty silly from a lore perspective to begin with considering what's there in Realm of Chaos (ROC isn't usually the most lore accurate but it's pretty consistent for Demon starts funnily enough.)"

When it comes to lore, you need to remember lore is impossible here. The area above the bastion should be AT LEAST 3x as large, in lore it's 10x larger than what you see. The eastern steppes should be at least 2 provinces, for example, and should have the hobgoblin khan empire. When you look at the IME map currently, it's just a big pile of mountain textures where a massive chaos world should be.

So Zhatan's start is actually decent on lore, we know there are chorfs up in that area because they sell to chaos factions around there, and they can recruit more hobgoblins. In the end times (which I don't like) chorfs bring down the bastion. So the idea chorfs are up there is fairly sound, but, of course chorfs shouldn't be at volary. The fact chorfs are there is because of map constraints, and CA being lazy. The same goes for the hobgoblin landmark. The landmark SHOULD be in the eastern steppes, but map constraints smooshes everything together.

That's why, no matter what, I am fairly sure Zhatan's starts will always be anti-lore. Even if we give him the boring start at Silver Pinnacle, it's still anti-lore, because that place is a major strigoi vampire settlement (see link at bottom).

"As for Azhag, it's a serious concern there but currently it's an RNG roll on if Astragoth goes and starts attacking him so again in my opinion it's acceptable potential losses for Azhag to deal with Zhatan."

It won't be RNG, Zhatan will declare on Azhag 100% of the time because they have -100 with each other and Zhatan won't see anyone else. Compare that to Azhag who normally gets a vamp bonus, and normally silver pinnacle starts with vampires who are friendly to Azhag. Azhag would never show up in Empire again if Zhatan is moved to the blasted wastes.

Overall, there aren't any good spots for Zhatan. Moving Khorne or Azazel out of Cathay is tough because there aren't any other spots on the map that they really belong. Moving Kholek is anti-lore, and there aren't any other spots that would be a good choice for him as a WoC either (not many dark fotresses). The best spot "openish" spot in the Chaos wastes is at the Fortress of the Damned, next to Bleak Swords. But with both sigvaldd and valkia there is just a lot of WoC spam for DE to deal with already, adding Kholek sounds pretty lame.

Zhatan could work at the fortress of the damned, but it would require an entire rework of the area. But it would allow Zhatan to fight some dark elves instead of Cathay, and later on perhaps help invade Ulthuan.

That said, I can think of good reasons to leave Zhatan where he is - chorfs snowball very easily. If they are allowed to hold even two provinces the player has an easy time snowballing afterwards. A crowded Chaos Wastes means Zhatan has to take land carefully. That said, to prevent chaos from simply killing each other up there, my testing as shown:

- Zhatan and Kholek need military alliance, this actually gets Kholek to attack Grimgor around turn 15-20 and makes it less likely Zhatan is backstabbed by Khorne.
- Diplomatic bonus between Zhatan and Khorne is given, in case Khorne wants to make an alliance so he can go around the mountains into Cathay.
- Zhatan starts with diplomatic contact with Grimgor, ensuring he declares on him and pulls in Kholek.
- Grimgor AI realizes it is outgunned and quickly forms an alliance with Skragg. The Skragg/Grimgor vs Zhatan/Kholek tag team is actually really balanced and these two teams will battle in the mountains for quite some time before someone wins.

I would prefer not to hard force solutions with diplomacy, but I feel it is necessary due to map constraints and lore constraints. Of course, if we moved Zhatan I would have to change a lot of things. But the above setup is actually functional and worlds better than vanilla IMO.

The next question is: How to make Astragoth's campaign more difficult? I think I found the answer:

https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Neferata_(novel)

Silver Pinnacle is supposed to be home of an extremely powerful vampress... currently not in game. Maybe if they release Nagash, they will add Neferata alongside the DLC. I will raise the settlement to T5 so it will pose some kind of a challenge to Astragoth.

More on silver pinnacle: https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Silver_Pinnacle#fn_1

"That's why, no matter what, I am fairly sure Zhatan's starts will always be anti-lore. Even if we give him the boring start at Silver Pinnacle, it's still anti-lore, because that place is a major strigoi vampire settlement (see link at bottom)."

I never would say to /remove/ the Pinnacle from the game, but I did imagine to place Zhatan down there in one of the minor settlements. Possibly Desolation which'd put him in control of the oil fields right away because it's weird that none of the Chorfs own the ONLY oil province on the map despite it being THEIR special resource-kind of.

As for the rest of your reasons, I can understand a lot of them. I just can't help but feel that corner of the map is shaping up to be a bit reminiscent of the Southlands Battle Royale currently present in vanilla. - If I am correct it's... Zhatan, Azazel, Skarbrand, Grimgor, Skrag, Miao Ying, and Lokir all kinda in the same general region. It's why I still feel moving Zhatan to the blasted wastes ends up being a good idea for him. Honestly he could also just start fighting the Teal-Chorf minor faction alternatively but then that'd be intruding into Draz's natural expansion path.

While not TERRIBLY important, the Ironskin tribe mod also is there now too (Saberskin tribe replacer.)

It isn't exactly a PERFECT suggestion and is pretty goofy, but there's always spawning him at the Eastern Colonies for tomfoolery. The Eastern Colonies is a really interesting starting spot and it'd give some utility to Chorf's port techs which despite getting early on you don't actually use at all till mid-game. (In Zhatan's case you just don't use it with how far in-land you are.)

Beyond that there's trying to find a spot to shove him down into the Southlands too to give him some different foes to fight. Only because Southlands is much emptier now.

Though probably the most ""interesting"" spot for him would be anywhere near Lustria as currently Lizardmen and Chorfs might as well not exist to each other. But that suggestion is much more outlandish and depends entirely on the argument that Zhatan's in-game lore (he's on a distant campaign on behalf of Ghorth) is stretched to its limit to put him someplace he shouldn't be. (Fluff wise, maybe oil can be drilled for in dino-rich depths of Lustria? Not the WORST background...)

I honestly like the idea of Chorfs in Lustria just because it gives some incredible variety. Only question is justifying it. It's something the Tomb Kings DLC did a GREAT job at ironically as it managed to fit an LL far into Naggarond which is a place Tomb Kings would otherwise NEVER be nearby.

As for Astragoth, I'd advice against a Tier V Silver Pinnacle only because VERY popular landmark mods already buff it immensely which could make the AI potentially just strictly unfun for players to fight against- and just roid out the AI so it NEVER dies and possibly even just kills Astragoth outright if he fights it.

Astragoth overall is just in an odd spot partly due to where Zhatan spawns since he doesn't kill the Norscans anymore by default. He either goes down or he goes into the mountains and joins the Mountains-of-Mourn attrition war. (In a recent game he took Saberskin out before killing Slaves of Zarr for some reason, inconvenient for me but kinda funny.)

It's odd to say but funnily enough Azhag might be the big problem in this whole equation just for the basis that he surrounded on all sides by LL's that hate him. I'd honestly say due to the fact Azhag is similar to Repanse and shouldn't actually be around that maybe he's worth repositioning somewhere else. Like I mentioned earlier, Southlands has actually opened up a lot due to the stupid Battle-Royale decision being reversed by a lot of your changes.

"I never would say to /remove/ the Pinnacle from the game, but I did imagine to place Zhatan down there in one of the minor settlements. Possibly Desolation which'd put him in control of the oil fields right away because it's weird that none of the Chorfs own the ONLY oil province on the map despite it being THEIR special resource-kind of."

But then Zhatan is at a major disadvantage in the conclave race without a starting capital. If Zhatan is moved, he is moved to a new capital.

"While not TERRIBLY important, the Ironskin tribe mod also is there now too (Saberskin tribe replacer.)"

Should be compatible with Living World. Not only do I think Ironskin is a cool tribe, but, Living World adds a lv. 3 Sabreskin encampment where Skragg used to be.

"Zhatan, Azazel, Skarbrand, Grimgor, Skrag, Miao Ying, and Lokir all kinda in the same general region."

Nah, it's just four in a row - Kholek, Zhatan, Skarbrand, and Azazel. Lokir is seperated by a full extra province plus he has tons of room to expand to the south. Same for Miao Ying, Skragg, and Grimgor.

It's the big four up in the wastes who have no space, which forces them to push down or into each other. I want them to push down and cause conflict, since CA decided to gut the chaos wastes out of a potential 10 provinces.

"Beyond that there's trying to find a spot to shove him down into the Southlands too to give him some different foes to fight. Only because Southlands is much emptier now."

Moving Zhatan to Southlands is very anti-lore but also I doubt Zhatan would last long. Nothing but enemies for him, might as well put Skarbrand back there, which defeats the purpose of this mod.

"It isn't exactly a PERFECT suggestion and is pretty goofy, but there's always spawning him at the Eastern Colonies for tomfoolery. The Eastern Colonies is a really interesting starting spot and it'd give some utility to Chorf's port techs which despite getting early on you don't actually use at all till mid-game. (In Zhatan's case you just don't use it with how far in-land you are.)"

It's super boring out there. Wouldn't be a good move.

"Though probably the most ""interesting"" spot for him would be anywhere near Lustria as currently Lizardmen and Chorfs might as well not exist to each other."

Lustria is jam-packed as it is, not to mention the convoy mechanic makes no sense if you place a chorf anywhere outside of the convoy trade routes.

"As for Astragoth, I'd advice against a Tier V Silver Pinnacle only because VERY popular landmark mods already buff it immensely which could make the AI potentially just strictly unfun for players to fight against- and just roid out the AI so it NEVER dies and possibly even just kills Astragoth outright if he fights it."

The Landmark mods break the game with or without T5 Silver Pinnacle - I can't balance my game around such broken mods. I've tried them and they create ridiculously broken units at random landmarks. Can't worry about stuff like that.

"It's odd to say but funnily enough Azhag might be the big problem in this whole equation just for the basis that he surrounded on all sides by LL's that hate him. "

Which is a bug, Azhag should be friendly with all vamps. I've improved his diplomacy to avoid such problems (pretty sure SFO does too). Azhag, location lorewise, is exactly where he belongs btw.

Again, the only other location that makes sense, so far, which you still haven't mentioned even once, is Zhatan east of Dark Elves at Fortress of the Damned. It is on a major convoy trade route, it has Dark Elves and Demons to fight early game, Woc (potentially), Humans and Brettonians in the mid game, and Wood Elves late game. It would play far differently than the other two Chorfs.

Zhatan would need an alliance with Malekith? Perhaps starts at war with some order factions to the south to get him to send attacking armies?

im very for zhatan being out by the druchii, mainly because theres no factions over there that actually interest me. the trade route is a very good justification, but also naggaroth as a whole has plenty of escaped slave orc factions for him to recapture with his increased post battle casualties before their previous owners can get to em first.
then theres always the option of turning on your trade partners to take their slaves for your own by force, which would introduce an ap-heavy faction to play around army composition-wise if the player so chooses, though not making zhatan's ai incapable of warring with them might result in that said ap destroying him.
another boon to a naggarothi start position is eventual contact with the deserters of khatep, providing yet another race to fight, and eventually working one's way all the way to the southlands or high elf donut later into a campaign, both of which have vampire coast factions to face off against, as well as a choice of order factions to take on.

If I moved Zhatan to Fortress of the Damned, I'd place him at war with the Bleak Swords, and a trade pact with the norscans. He'd go up against Kairos early on, then Hellebrone. The question what after that? Or should his campaign be more about going south to kill elves? And is that fun for people to play (having to sail down)? I am interested in this start but I will develop it after I release the next patch. I think I will try to make an alternative Zhatan start that can be set with MCT.

Currently, the way I've fixed Zhatan is to give him a military alliance with Kholek, and Defensive Pacts with Skarbrand and Azazel. Sounds goofy but it's the best that can be done and it works way better than it sounds. The military alliance fixes Kholek's AI so he doesn't camp in base for 10-30 turns. Defensive pacts were because the code to grant military access pacts seems to be bugged. You can allow Faction A to go over B, or B to go over A, but I cannot set territorial permissions to be open for both. I would much rather just military access, but defensive pacts work and have the advantage of creating a prisoner's dilemma: whoever breaks the pact first gets hated on by everyone else, but whoever backstabs first backstabs best.

Either way, the effect is that Zhatan is the arms dealer up north, and his challenge isn't about killing everyone around him, but instead securing land through a difficult set of uneasy alliances. No matter which way you go (Cathay, or Mountains) there are distinct advantages and disadvantages for Zhatan. Zhatan's campaign is far more difficult now. No more corning camping until T5 so you can blow up the wall.

Astragoth still has the easiest campaign in terms of opponents, so I maxed out Silver Pinnacle. It now pumps out vampire armies and is more dangerous like a real LL Neferata should be, although still not even close.

Drazhaoth is my favorite, lots of subfactions and major players around him, but not even half as crowded in vanilla. That said, his difficulty is still increased overall, because there are so many subfactions that can turn on you at any point. Eyebiter was added to Sentinels (like in lore) and Bloodmaw was added to Pigbarter (Thunderguts are now in southlands for lore). Minor nurgle faction starts with lv. 3 settlement at mouth of river ruin, a result of millennia of pollution building up. It's also a throwback to Tamurkhan norsca/nurgle invasion that started there.

I'll say Draz easily has the most overall fun campaign of the entire group due to your changes. Imrik no matter what will give you a LOT of trouble at some point, and the Black Fortress' Mortar building start allows for a lot of fights to be encouraged to be manually ran due to not wanting to lose too many troops needlessly.

As for the Fortress of the Damned suggestion...I'm personally not a fan since it just ends up giving the Dark Elves even MORE to deal with and I see Malekith getting his nuts kicked in. Already I see Kairos is dominating that region repeatedly and Zhatan is unlikely to contribute anything meaningful there.

Perhaps Tower of Gorgoth? It puts him uncomfortably close to Draz but it makes for REALLY good co-op between players, diplomacy options for single player, AND it fits perfectly for Zhatan's lore in terms of physical closeness to Ghorth. Have him finding the minor Chorf faction as is starting foe and from that point he's able to penetrate into the Mountains of Mourn again, or go West towards the Dwarfs.

It definitely ends up having Zhatan not able to offer any new battlegrounds in being in the Darklands again- but I'm left to believe it'll be a better experience compared to the Volary as you only have ONE path to take as Zhatan in the mod currently. (Kill Grimgor and go south) The only other alternative is friendly firing Skarband/Azazel which I know is far from your intent here.

Tower of Gorgoth spawn means Zhatan doesn't need hand-holding as he'll need to fight the minor-chorfs there, and then is surrounded by enemies save for Draz who has his own problems. The two as AI won't work together much but it might give Grimgor/Skrag more time to prepare for a defense.

i find imrik to be a non-issue for drazh honestly. a few blunderbusses backed up by a padding of labourers can just autoresolve him away from my experience, though i will admit to not having played drazh with this mod yet (currently playing through as zhatan to get a better feel for what i think should be done with him).

on the topic of drazh's current start though, i found kholek to still be extremely derpy in it. he spent a lot of time trespassing on my land until i killed his starting enemy for him, completely ignoring the nurglites you started him at war with, and eventually went off to go kill thorgrim, only to be backstabbed by archaon (who had wiped out the maggoth kin before kholek even touched them) and ended up taking a detour north of astragoth to claim settlements from the skaven so as to not starve to death. i cant imagine its an intended interaction but its certainly been interesting to watch at the very least.

"i find imrik to be a non-issue for drazh honestly. a few blunderbusses backed up by a padding of labourers can just autoresolve him away from my experience, though i will admit to not having played drazh with this mod yet (currently playing through as zhatan to get a better feel for what i think should be done with him)."

Statistically speaking for Vanilla Imrik ends up giving his army Fire resistance at some point so he'll be really difficult at hard+ levels. Though if you rush him it might work out, provided your RNG is good with the people who hate you not attacking too early.

Though I'll clarify and say there isn't many starts in the game that are that difficult when doing normal difficulty. I always play at hard campaign difficulty minimum to get a feel for how difficult a campaign start is- on my end at least.